No point playing Russia anymore

[DicRoNero]

I disagree, I've just played a fairly standard Muscovy opening (eating Novgorod and LO) and everything seems more or less alright. I still have money to spend despite these autonomous lands. Overall it gotta be great once you form Russia. I'm seriously thinking of trying a Muscovian WC soon. Now that you can dismiss idea groups, Muscovy is in the best shape ever.

 

[oblio-]

I disagree, I've just played a fairly standard Muscovy opening (eating Novgorod and LO) and everything seems more or less alright. I still have money to spend despite these autonomous lands. Overall it gotta be great once you form Russia. I'm seriously thinking of trying a Muscovian WC soon. Now that you can dismiss idea groups, Muscovy is in the best shape ever.

Mister Russian maniac , you do know that a Muscovite WC instead of the Bohemian one would have probably been easier? Especially with the -15% coring cost that Muscovy has

 

[Novacat]

Russia is basicly the strongest country overall:

Best ideas in the game.
Excellent starting position for expansion against weak hords, asia and europe.
Most powers are far away.

Their NIs are not among the best anymore... Brandenburg, Sweden, and Ottomans have much better NIs, but they do benefit from having one of the best starting positions in the game. The best if all your doing is map painting and not world conquest. They have easy conquests in Siberia and China that, unlike other Europeans, they get full benefit from (can go all the way down to 0% local autonomy), and they can also curbstomp India, and then redirect all that trade back to Novgorod node. The only downside now is that you now have to deal with culture penalties since Central/East Asia is now as culturally fragmented as India. Once they finish their pan-asian empire there is absolutly no European power who can stand against them at all due to the sheer numbers of troops they can throw into Europe.

Muscovy is a great tutorial power because it is just far more powerful than any country neighboring it.

Just as long as you remember to switch to Sunni or one of the other Christian denominations.... Orthodox is complete garbage.

 

[Denkt]

Russia have better ideas then Sweden, Brandenburg and Ottomans + Orthodox is very good better then Catholic in alot of situations.

 

[oblio-]

Just as long as you remember to switch to Sunni or one of the other Christian denominations.... Orthodox is complete garbage.

I'd have disagreed vehemently in 1.7. Orthodox was very good for large empires.
I need to check again in 1.8, because of the new unrest system. But if the Orthodox bonuses do what I think they do, it's still a very good religion.

 

[lordelenath]

Orthodox is actually pretty nice, especially in 1.8 the -2 unrest is very noticeable.

 

[balmung60]

The code says -3 unrest, actually.

patriarch_authority_local = {
	local_unrest = -3
	local_manpower_modifier = 0.33
	local_tax_modifier = -0.33

Orthodox is pretty powerful as it stands. Really, most religions are pretty powerful in some way (Catholics get Papal stuff, Protestant gets the best passive bonuses, Reformed gets fervor, Orthodox gets Patriarchal Authority, Islam gets piety (but Shia Islam is best Islam, statistically speaking), and Hinduism gets patron deities). Except Coptic and Sikhism and the Eastern religion group and pagans, which exist mostly to suck. I mean yes, Eastern religions can actually convert stuff now, but their bonuses still kinda suck compared to most other non-pagan religions. And I guess Sikhism gets good events and a decent bonus at least, so there's that. Some mechanics for the religions in the Eastern Group would be quite nice.

 

[Novacat]

Orthodox is actually pretty nice, especially in 1.8 the -2 unrest is very noticeable.

ONLY in true faith provinces, though, which tend to not have revolt issues to begin with except in exceptional circumstances. I do agree Orthodox would be fairly powerful if Patriarch authority applied to all owned provinces, but it does not.

Russia have better ideas then Sweden, Brandenburg and Ottomans

You are wrong. Russia's ideas are mostly focused on quantity but, ever since discipline and combat power was fixed quality has always been superior to quantity and the above three have quality in spades. While Russia would probably be better than Sweden on normal circumstances Sweden also gets a ton of permanent event modifiers which tips the scales back towards Sweden. Infact, Sweden's troops, after event modifiers, are cheaper than Russia's troops. Forcelimits are kind of semi-worthless because they stop being relevant once you blob beyond a certain size.

 

[Ranjid]

The Orthodox PA events have been reworked as well. Now you get to choose if you want to increase your PA or lower it and get some bonus (-5 PA -1 Inflation or -5 PA and 1 Stability and the likes). I really like it. But it's still nothing compared to a curia controller.

 

[henzington]

I disagree with the OP before revolt risk was random and now with the automony system you have much more control over managing revolts and new provinces. Does it slow down blobbing a bit yes but the trade off is that you get control over a part of the game which was random and just plain annoying before. Having something you can manage is much more fun then they just a random dice roll.

 

[oblio-]

ONLY in true faith provinces, though, which tend to not have revolt issues to begin with except in exceptional circumstances. I do agree Orthodox would be fairly powerful if Patriarch authority applied to all owned provinces, but it does not.

Well, Orthodox countries go through non-true faith provinces like a hot knife through butter due to the high level of permanent missionary strength. If you take Defender of the Faith (which is generally a good idea as an Orthodox country since you'll be the only Orthodox alive in 99% of the games) and Religious (always a good idea), Orthodox provinces will be the majority of provinces you control. I'd actually say that your average religious unity will be 95% or more once you start growing.
And I think unrest becomes relevant when you want to want to decrease autonomy. Lower autonomy = more money faster = faster blobbing.

Of course, it's hard to quantify all of this, Catholic or Protestant or Sunni are just as good.

 

[Beagá]

Russia is by no means easy to play, through helpping Denmark so they integrate Sweden does makes things a LOT easier. The new rebel system can probably be used to great effect to screw Poland and tatars.

 

[Denkt]

You are wrong. Russia's ideas are mostly focused on quantity but, ever since discipline and combat power was fixed quality has always been superior to quantity and the above three have quality in spades. While Russia would probably be better than Sweden on normal circumstances Sweden also gets a ton of permanent event modifiers which tips the scales back towards Sweden. Infact, Sweden's troops, after event modifiers, are cheaper than Russia's troops. Forcelimits are kind of semi-worthless because they stop being relevant once you blob beyond a certain size.

Force limit is always useful because the larger army you can have the better off you are at winning war.
Russias quantity advantage is larger then the others quality advantage, as Russia you will likely field more units allowing you to rotate your army winning battles, occupy the enemy and win.
Also Swedens modifiers should not be added into the value of Swedens ideas.

 

[Novacat]

Well, Orthodox countries go through non-true faith provinces like a hot knife through butter due to the high level of permanent missionary strength.

Other religions get just as good missionary strength. Orthodox missionary strength is just there to make up for the fact that Orthodox only has access to the generic Christian missionary strength decisions.

Of course, it's hard to quantify all of this, Catholic or Protestant or Sunni are just as good.

Ehh.. not exactly.

1. Hindu is the best religion, by far. Patron Dieties, uber events, and a -6% tech cost bonus
2. Islam would probably be 2nd place, because of the enormous bonuses on both sides of the piety slider
3. Reformed because of the Fervor system. One of the options is -2 Unrest for all provinces and +1 dipreputation (eat your heart out Orthodox)
4. Catholicism because of all the stuff you can buy with papal points
5. Protestantism because of the -10% idea cost
6. Orthodox would probably be here

Overall, I would only consider Orthodox superior to Sikhism, Coptics, and the Eastern/Pagan religions.

Force limit is always useful because the larger army you can have the better off you are at winning war.
Russias quantity advantage is larger then the others quality advantage, as Russia you will likely field more units allowing you to rotate your army winning battles, occupy the enemy and win.

You should ask all the people who had their 300K doomstacks wiped by Prussian armies a fraction of the size.

Also Swedens modifiers should not be added into the value of Swedens ideas.

This is a mistake, PERMANENT event modifiers should be included. Sweden used to be an extreme case of this where, despite not having the best NIs in the game, it was able to beat Prussia in Discipline because of Gustav's reforms. Given the reforms have been nerfed since then but you should never ignore permanent mods. ATM Ottomans has the highest discipline in the game at 15% because of Janissaries.

 

[oblio-]

Other religions get just as good missionary strength.

My point wasn't missionary strength, it was that Orthodox provinces for an Orthodox country = almost all the provinces, all the time. Therefore Patriarch Authority is always "on".

Ehh.. not exactly.

1. Hindu is the best religion, by far. Patron Dieties, uber events, and a -6% tech cost bonus
2. Islam would probably be 2nd place, because of the enormous bonuses on both sides of the piety slider
3. Reformed because of the Fervor system. One of the options is -2 Unrest for all provinces and +1 dipreputation (eat your heart out Orthodox)
4. Catholicism because of all the stuff you can buy with papal points
5. Protestantism because of the -10% idea cost
6. Orthodox would probably be here

Overall, I would only consider Orthodox superior to Sikhism, Coptics, and the Eastern/Pagan religions.

Islam and Reformed are cute, but the bonuses are not constant. Fervor points run out quite quickly, Piety takes quite a while to move to the end of the slider you want. Plus once you run out of Sunni neighbors (or you have truces with them), it's quite hard to keep it down.
As fun as Reformed is, from a purely practical point of view Protestant is probably better.
Anyway, these are technicalities, Russia can be played which way you want it, you can even turn Shinto and you'd do ok

 

[Ranjid]

Islam and Reformed are cute, but the bonuses are not constant. Fervor points run out quite quickly, Piety takes quite a while to move to the end of the slider you want. Plus once you run out of Sunni neighbors (or you have truces with them), it's quite hard to keep it down.

As fun as Reformed is, from a purely practical point of view Protestant is probably better.

You get +1 fervor for:

Each Stability point above 0.
100 Religious Unity.
100 Prestige.
Being at peace.
Base Value.

That's 7 possible fervor points a month, which lets you run 1 focus all the time and 40% (well, a little less since the activation costs 5 fervor as well) of the time another one simultaneously. So umh. You're statement isn't quite true.

 

[Novacat]

Islam and Reformed are cute, but the bonuses are not constant. Fervor points run out quite quickly, Piety takes quite a while to move to the end of the slider you want. Plus once you run out of Sunni neighbors (or you have truces with them), it's quite hard to keep it down.

You only need to get Piety down to -100% for a short time to tech up, then its not so problematic. You will easily make enough fervor points to keep one policy activated 24/7.

As fun as Reformed is, from a purely practical point of view Protestant is probably better.

Depends. Protestant is good if you view monarch point savings as paramount. Reformed just has a variety of bonuses that can help you with various things.

 

[DicRoNero]

Mister Russian maniac , you do know that a Muscovite WC instead of the Bohemian one would have probably been easier? Especially with the -15% coring cost that Muscovy has

But that's pretty much the only advantage they've got for a WC. I doubt I would have pulled it off. Have you seen people doing it resonably recently, btw? I've seen many France/Ottos WCs, but I don't recall any Muscovian ones. That or people are simply way too modest to post it

 

[oblio-]

You get +1 fervor for:

Each Stability point above 0.
100 Religious Unity.
100 Prestige.
Being at peace.
Base Value.

That's 7 possible fervor points a month, which lets you run 1 focus all the time and 40% (well, a little less since the activation costs 5 fervor as well) of the time another one simultaneously. So umh. You're statement isn't quite true.

I've just finished a Reformed Ragusa game in 1.7. So:
1. Decent/great stability because I was a merchant republic and had plenty of monarch points. I actually boosted stability several times paying 300+ ADM just because my monarch points were overflowing. Even so, 3 stability is incredibly rare, so 1 point at least is always "missing". You probably have 2 stability 50% of the time (maybe?). So another point is more like 0.5 => an average of 1.5 fervor points generated from the 3 you mentioned.
2. Most of the time I was at peace (building everything I could). But in an expansionist game you won't be at peace much => 0.5 fervor points.
3. I had 100 religious unity from 1600 on, since I only wanted to conquer a set number of provinces so no expansion after I had those. Also during conquests religious unity is not 100% (unless you have Humanism, which you should - and in this case things are a lot easier) => 1 fervor point.
4. My prestige was not necessarily 100 because of the relatively few wars, but once I built the unique building, I think I was around 100 most of the time after 1700. Still, keeping high prestige is not hard when you fight a lot => 1 fervor point.
5. Base value => 1 fervor point.

Extra notes:
6. Switching also costs a bit, as you said.
7. Religious grants 0.25 fervor points, and I think you should get Religious ideas.

1.5 + 0.5 + 1 + 1 +1 + 0.25 = 5.25.

Yes, later on you will have one focus all the time (or close to it, more like 90%), while the second focus is much rarer, I'd say 20% or less.

 

[Novacat]

But that's pretty much the only advantage they've got for a WC. I doubt I would have pulled it off. Have you seen people doing it resonably recently, btw? I've seen many France/Ottos WCs, but I don't recall any Muscovian ones. That or people are simply way too modest to post it

Mainly because Ottomans has better NIs and the powerful Janissaries and for WC purposes Muscovy and Ottomans do not have that great starting positions. France has the best starting location for WC because it lets you shut down the colonizers and neutralize the HRE early on.