You must really like typing - especially things that everyone already knows.
Maybe you should follow the thread and find out what the rest of us are discussing
No penalty for endless loans? Hello?? RE: quill18's
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You must really like typing - especially things that everyone already knows.
Maybe you should follow the thread and find out what the rest of us are discussing
For a 20-30 years period as it is in the Demo, Quill's right, it's not THAT big of a deal. The problem, as usually is with debts and interest, is that you're gonna pass all that crap to the future generations and if you didn't use these loans properly (invest in buildings, secure conquests, stability, etc), you'll end up with a near unrecoverable state at some point, where you can't do anything but pay interest, over and over, and over, and over, just to stay afloat...
Then you'll get some rebellion, some war or any crisis, and you won't be able to do anything about it, because anything you'd do, would destroy your nation's already barely alive economy. Your armies will have shit morale, you won't be able to reinforce your navy, then you'll start losing cores and taxes here and there, while the interests are still growing...
For long term, I'd say it's ok, for a short burst, to abuse loans like crazy, but if you don't take 10-15 years to stabilize afterwards and repay everything, you'll regret it 50-100 years down the line.
For the Demo though, take as many as you want
Then you'll get some rebellion, some war or any crisis, and you won't be able to do anything about it, because anything you'd do, would destroy your nation's already barely alive economy. Your armies will have shit morale, you won't be able to reinforce your navy, then you'll start losing cores and taxes here and there, while the interests are still growing...
For long term, I'd say it's ok, for a short burst, to abuse loans like crazy, but if you don't take 10-15 years to stabilize afterwards and repay everything, you'll regret it 50-100 years down the line.
For the Demo though, take as many as you want
With an increase of the interest rate post-bankruptcy the system would be more historically accurate, but, as it is now, doesn't really seems broken to me.
You must really like typing - especially things that everyone already knows.
Maybe you should follow the thread and find out what the rest of us are discussing
:laugh:
He explains in a very concise manner why the opening post is fallacious, and you reply with "Throg angry! Throg smash!"
Way to go, dude. :laugh:
Not really. He's just explaining the effects of interest and inflation. The point of this topic wasn't "things we already know: economics 101", but instead: why the game lets you take out loan after loan ad infinitum - in the demo it seems. Basically, what kemor just addressed in his post.
That guy's drivel was only somewhat relevant and just an elaboration on economic principles that I - for one - already understand. I'm sure many people in this thread do, too.
For a 20-30 years period as it is in the Demo, Quill's right, it's not THAT big of a deal. The problem, as usually is with debts and interest, is that you're gonna pass all that crap to the future generations and if you didn't use these loans properly (invest in buildings, secure conquests, stability, etc), you'll end up with a near unrecoverable state at some point, where you can't do anything but pay interest, over and over, and over, and over, just to stay afloat...
Then you'll get some rebellion, some war or any crisis, and you won't be able to do anything about it, because anything you'd do, would destroy your nation's already barely alive economy. Your armies will have shit morale, you won't be able to reinforce your navy, then you'll start losing cores and taxes here and there, while the interests are still growing...
For long term, I'd say it's ok, for a short burst, to abuse loans like crazy, but if you don't take 10-15 years to stabilize afterwards and repay everything, you'll regret it 50-100 years down the line.
For the Demo though, take as many as you want
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Very nicely put, ty Sir! :happy:
The interest rate shoots up, as I already mentioned: from 4% pre-bankruptcy to 16% post-bankruptcy.
The thing that I think people are forgetting is that in EU3, you're not just some random guy asking for a loan. You're the government of a country. Running a deficit is what the majority of countries /do/. Different rules apply than what you'd have when you go out and ask for a loan.
Not to mention two things: You do have an upper limit on loans, and once you go bankrupt, your country gets completely trashed.
Loans testing screenshots:
No loans, clean country
One loan taken
Max loans taken
Pre-bankruptcy
Post-bankruptcy. Notice how I can only take out a fourth of the number of loans now.
Ty kindly for these as well. It's great to be able to see the effects in a test environment like that. Looks like bankrupcy is fittingly disastrous after all. I was worried that it wouldn't be!
If you understand the principles, then why are you complaining?
If you invest the money borrowed in such a manner that the return exceeds the interest, why shouldn't you be able to borrow infinity?
Not if he is smart and uses the loans to finance wars or buildings that will expand his revenue base by enough to cover the inflation, it will not.
Loans are an excellent way to bootstrap your economy if you know what you are doing.
I have not watched the videos talked about in this thread and so do not know whether its is the case or not for the person in question, but just like I proved with my amusing loan-abusing Ottomans in Victoria 2 beta, loans are still great when used correctly. The difference seems to be that some of the lessons learned at that time have been applied to EU4, making it arguably less of an abuse of game mechanics and more of an interesting way of allowing players to force development rather than waiting years or decades to earn money, so long as they know what they are doing.
Slightly off topic, but that is how governments have been operating for quite some time now. Governments take loans to invest in infrastructure, education, etc, but also just for the day to day expenses, and these loans are covered by the evergrowing economies. This has however only been remotely feasible, since some time after the Industrial Revolution.
It's a songtext by muse, and it talks about economics in general, who seem to think that everything always have to keep growing, standing still is going backwards by definition. I feel the discussion here with the loans, as some sort of precursor of our current system, has a similar (rediculous) concept. But carry on discussing loans.
I think we have that cleared up now, don't we? Yes, you can go bankrupt in the game. Yes, the banks will give you loads of loans until you are definitely unable to pay interest (see below). Also, loans double as minting to a degree (i.e. loans from whoever mints your currency in lieu of a national bank, basically).
This thread is surprisingly educational concerning the misconceptions that led to certain current events.
This thread is surprisingly educational concerning the misconceptions that led to certain current events.
Its not a winning strategy. Yes all your debt is wiped and thats because you can't pay for it.
Your also forgetting all the other bad effects that happens like going down to -3 stability, higher revolt risk, low moral for armies, navies, and forts, and a higher interest for any future loans while you are bankrupt. Its more of an ideal time for any nation to attack you because you cannot fight back because your nation is bankrupt and your military is severly demoralized because you can't pay them because you are bankrupt!
Look at any modern countries national debt especially USA and then tell me you can't endlessly borrow money.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_defaults
Or, to elaborate: The US are in a bit of a special position because their financial system is basically the central piece of the global one. Yes, countries can borrow MORE in the modern, globalized world, than they could ever before, but there is an end to that. That's the case in modern times, and especially was the case in 1500 before thinks like the ESM were even possible to imagine.
Totally agree. I knew as soon as I had posted that I'd been a bit lazy with my comparison.
I was more commenting in the mindset of nations rather than mechanics of it.
Something I've been wondering: Can you lower your inflation by any means other than paying your loans? If so, you could actually take a loan at a certain inflation value, lower the inflation to a point beneath said value and pay the loan back with a net plus, unless I've totally misunderstood the whole inflation system of EU IV. I know that several brokering companies used to (or maybe still) do a similar scheme and being able to do that in EU IV would be hilarious. Unfortunately it wouldn't have the same consequences as in real life and you'd basically cheat the whole system.
Something I've been wondering: Can you lower your inflation by any means other than paying your loans? If so, you could actually take a loan at a certain inflation value, lower the inflation to a point beneath said value and pay the loan back with a net plus, unless I've totally misunderstood the whole inflation system of EU IV. I know that several brokering companies used to (or maybe still) do a similar scheme and being able to do that in EU IV would be hilarious. Unfortunately it wouldn't have the same consequences as in real life and you'd basically cheat the whole system.
The loans are take back at a certain interest value, not inflation. Lowering the inflation will not affect the amount you need to pay back a all.
Inflation can be reduced with certain national ideas and advisors only.
Something I've been wondering: Can you lower your inflation by any means other than paying your loans? If so, you could actually take a loan at a certain inflation value, lower the inflation to a point beneath said value and pay the loan back with a net plus, unless I've totally misunderstood the whole inflation system of EU IV. I know that several brokering companies used to (or maybe still) do a similar scheme and being able to do that in EU IV would be hilarious. Unfortunately it wouldn't have the same consequences as in real life and you'd basically cheat the whole system.
Yes. You have to be over 2 inflation I think though. You can use Monarch points to lower it.