No penalty for endless loans? Hello?? RE: quill18's

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Mattbzh

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Hey..;
Anyway I think that like in CKII, you'll have cheat codes or possibility to tweek player's profile so this loan problem would be no more.

I cheat? Yes I cheat! I want to enjoy my games and beat them, not be beaten by a machine! GOD MODE POWERS ON!!!
 

unmerged(773066)

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You're wiped out and set to be divided by your rivals and revolters then, basically.
 

Velorian

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I suppose countries back then had to pay in gold/silver, otherwise a good way to repay all loans would be to do like with the Zimbabwe dollar. Print a $100,000,000,000,000 bill (yes they've done that) and then you can hand it to your moneylender. It may lead to some inflation.
 

unmerged(410903)

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Hey..;
Anyway I think that like in CKII, you'll have cheat codes or possibility to tweek player's profile so this loan problem would be no more.

I cheat? Yes I cheat! I want to enjoy my games and beat them, not be beaten by a machine! GOD MODE POWERS ON!!!

Where did this guy come from?

Also the OP just isn't listening and I doubt he understands how loans work, he hasn't really tested any of this it seems, even though he can...

I smell a troll...just think about it....3 pages later and the discussion has gotten nowhere.
 

Rubidium

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I suppose countries back then had to pay in gold/silver, otherwise a good way to repay all loans would be to do like with the Zimbabwe dollar. Print a $100,000,000,000,000 bill (yes they've done that) and then you can hand it to your moneylender. It may lead to some inflation.
Pretty much. Paper currency wasn't a common thing for most of the period. And as you said, hyperinflation has issues (note that Zimbabwe no longer even has its own legal currency, because no one would accept it after shenanigans like that).
 

possumcorpse

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As has been stated there is a penalty and limit to loans you just need to manage it properly and use it to improve your economy and country and then deal with the inflation before it gets out of hand. It's a risk because you could get dragged into a bad war while you are doing this and screw yourself but not using loans to power through development and conquest can also leave you vulnerable.
 

pkderek

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An easy example of what happens when you go Bankrupt is if you lend Flanders form with Austria to the rebels. Let them siege a little bit and they will go bankrupt. They lose pretty much everyone (like 60 regiments down to 10) and get completely overrun by new rebels. Did not check their diplomatic standing but I'm sure they got wiped out in that respect too.
 

Kaiser Ludwig

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An easy example of what happens when you go Bankrupt is if you lend Flanders form with Austria to the rebels. Let them siege a little bit and they will go bankrupt. They lose pretty much everyone (like 60 regiments down to 10) and get completely overrun by new rebels. Did not check their diplomatic standing but I'm sure they got wiped out in that respect too.

Regarding that, what are we talking about? an 80% loss of troops and ships, thereabouts? Obviously the point that reckless borrowing beyond your means is bad should have been made, but a sick curiosity means I want to know :p HOW bad!
 

Korashy

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Also there is only one national idea which reduces inflation, which is in the ADM tree (which most people won't straight go for imho) and that only reduces inflation by -0.1 per year. That means if you take 8-10 loans in a war, that's 10 years of inflation. Add an untimely event that makes you choose between 3 inflation and 1 stab and you are looking at 40 years of inflation reduction if nothing else comes up. Now 4 points inflation isn't THAT bad, but it'll be enough to be annoying.
 

Danny-Dynamita

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Haha oh man. OK so I guess I've found the winning strategy? Live ridiciulously beyond your means, to the point where it's enough for you to get a HUGE advantage, and then just waive all of that in exchange for some comparably mild consequences that you'll easily be able to handle thanks to the power you've acquired via your spending spree. Woop.

Now I'm definitely disappointed.

Bankruptcy in EU is an economic status where you have the money but you don't have the country to invest in. Why? Because your country just has exploded - rebels have uprised everywhere, you have lost a lot of chunks of land due to independence rebellions, you have a useless army...

That's a VICTORY to you? A nation UNABLE TO DO ANYTHING? Ok, there you have your loans. Do you really think that you are so genius that you just found the FINAL STRATEGY? Because I think the rest of EU players just differ with you.
 

unmerged(184215)

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Douzo yoroshiku onegaishimasu.

What's the result of that? I mean what are the penalties you get and also what stops you from just taking 10 more loans? I know inflation is bad and I know interest is bad but it's only bad if you can't just take another loan to cover it like some neverending ponzi scheme.

This is like if you go to college for 4 years, have like $70,000 in student loans, and you just go to the bank and ask for $80,000 to pay those back, then go again for $80,000 and they just keep giving you more money. THat's completely ridiculous!

I hope you never enter the financial sector cause that is such a bad bad bad analogy.

Every loan increases inflation by 0.1% which in turn increases Build Cost, Mercenary Cost, Infantry Cost, Cavalry Cost, Artillery Cost, Heavy Ship Cost, Light Ship Cost, Galley Cost, Transport Cost and Advisor Cost by 0.1% per loan.

Now, each loan lasts for five years. Every month, you pay 4% interest on that loan. Its amount is not specific, differing from state to state (I'm sure there's a formula). Even if you pay back Loan #1 the very same day with Loan #2, when you figuratively walk into the bank and they ask you to cough up the money, you're not only paying back the total amount of Loan #1, but also the 4% interest over 60 months on that loan. Now you've got less money than what you started with, and you're paying Loan #2's 4% interest every month regardless of whether the loan is payed off or not. If you keep taking out loans, the value is a set amount. Then your inflation go up by another 0.1% and all the additional costs that ties in to that.

It's a spiral of debt that leads to GFC-like consequences for your country where if you're moronic enough to keep taking loans, keep paying a higher, ever more burdensome amount of interest and if you're happy to throw money away for higher costs to do business in all affairs of state craft (compared to your less moronic neighbours let alone rivals), then eventually your net income will be so negative that you won't be able to do anything cause you can't pay for anything cause you have no money! Sure it doesn't happen right away, but it's a drawn out process of diminishing returns.

Money goes, money comes. Yeah, wow easy. Money grows on trees. No need to care about inflation and five year interest rates repayments huh? Eventually, either the costs of doing anything is so severe that you'll be taking loans out every month, every week or every day. How the hell do you dig yourself out of that hole? You'll be quick on your way to becoming the next USA who can't pay back their $17 trillion debt even if they tried. Once you've maxed out the amount of loans you can take (around 90), that's it, the tree has run out of money to grow. Now what are you gonna do?

As an example, I jumped into the demo and started as the Ottoman Empire.
Started with a net income of roughly +9 per month.
Maxed out my loans (81x of them for 109 ducats each)
Repayed them all (138 ducats, interest inclusive) the same day with borrowed money.
Could only afford to repay 70x loans with borrowed money.
Net income is now +4 per month. Over the next 5 years, if my income stays the same, I will have 4 ducats x 60 months = 240 ducats. Bloody Norah, I can only afford to repay 1x loan in those five years. I'm going to have to extend on 10x loans worth 1380 ducats, five years from now. The extra five year extension accrues extra interest. It will be higher than 4% if the mechanics are the same as EUIII. My debt continues to soar as does my inflation and interests as my income decreases. After extending the loans for X amount of times (I can't remember the limit), the bank says they've had enough and the chickens are coming home to roost. I will then be bankrupt as a nation.

In that time, if you've played by my EUIV example befitting your Ponzi scheme analogy, you better pray no one declares war on you, steals trade power from your trade node, pay higher upkeep to reinforce your armies or repair your navies, prevent provinces from being occupied to provide income, etc. Not to mention that when bad or good events come your way, you can't afford to pay for them, you can't improve your provinces with buildings, you can't expand your navy, you can't expand your army. What the hell are you even doing being a paper tiger in a den of lions? You're going to get eaten up, domestically and internationally.

Not to mention bankruptcy events kick in once you default on loans. Atm, I'm not entirely sure if the EUIV mechanics differ from the EUIII bankruptcy mechanics but those were baaaaaad. Something in the range of 50% morale drop for your armed forces, stability loss, revolt risk increase, so on and so forth. In EUIV, if you ever plan on playing Spain, they've got unique bankruptcy historical events to make bankruptcy even more fun!

Now, if you're still of the opinion that Quill18 managed his economy well in his England videos or that you can outfox Paradox developers, kindly never come back to this forum.
 

Kaiser Ludwig

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Well, Quill18 didn't do SO badly... I mean as I remember he did take loans, but <10, repaid them, began building the income boosting improvements, tried to solve his manpower issues with armories... Expensewise it wasn't badly managed (although the +2 Advisor at first was what kicked him in the teeth, added to an awesomely bad King), and Income-wise there might have been better things to have done.
 

ikki

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Why in the world would anyone keep giving you loans when there are previous loans you haven't paid back?

None of economy deficits you get from interest and inflation matter at all if there's an endless supply of loans that you can just continue to drain until you basically win the game before you hit some kind of a limit to them.

because otherwise the lender will have thei economy collapse.. so they have to give free money to the excessive spender :D ..or thats the eu version of reality..
 

Richard Hakluyt

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Regarding that, what are we talking about? an 80% loss of troops and ships, thereabouts? Obviously the point that reckless borrowing beyond your means is bad should have been made, but a sick curiosity means I want to know :p HOW bad!

The rebels start off with about 88,000 troops and if you let them run rampant for a while form a four-province Flanders. Clearly these four provinces can't afford such a large army so Flanders borrows money. Before any sieges are completed Flanders goes bankrupt and its army collapses to 12,000 or so, which is all that the country can support on its current income and low stability. Not only that but the remaining troops have poor morale, the untouched Austrian forces then move in for the kill.

I will be avoiding any flirtations with bankruptcy, it looks potentially lethal.
 

possumcorpse

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As an example, I jumped into the demo and started as the Ottoman Empire.
Started with a net income of roughly +9 per month.
Maxed out my loans (81x of them for 109 ducats each)
Repayed them all (138 ducats, interest inclusive) the same day with borrowed money.
Could only afford to repay 70x loans with borrowed money.
Net income is now +4 per month. Over the next 5 years, if my income stays the same, I will have 4 ducats x 60 months = 240 ducats. Bloody Norah, I can only afford to repay 1x loan in those five years. I'm going to have to extend on 10x loans worth 1380 ducats, five years from now. The extra five year extension accrues extra interest. It will be higher than 4% if the mechanics are the same as EUIII. My debt continues to soar as does my inflation and interests as my income decreases. After extending the loans for X amount of times (I can't remember the limit), the bank says they've had enough and the chickens are coming home to roost. I will then be bankrupt as a nation.

In that time, if you've played by my EUIV example befitting your Ponzi scheme analogy, you better pray no one declares war on you, steals trade power from your trade node, pay higher upkeep to reinforce your armies or repair your navies, prevent provinces from being occupied to provide income, etc. Not to mention that when bad or good events come your way, you can't afford to pay for them, you can't improve your provinces with buildings, you can't expand your navy, you can't expand your army. What the hell are you even doing being a paper tiger in a den of lions? You're going to get eaten up, domestically and internationally.

Not to mention bankruptcy events kick in once you default on loans. Atm, I'm not entirely sure if the EUIV mechanics differ from the EUIII bankruptcy mechanics but those were baaaaaad. Something in the range of 50% morale drop for your armed forces, stability loss, revolt risk increase, so on and so forth. In EUIV, if you ever plan on playing Spain, they've got unique bankruptcy historical events to make bankruptcy even more fun!

Now, if you're still of the opinion that Quill18 managed his economy well in his England videos or that you can outfox Paradox developers, kindly never come back to this forum.

I had a level 3 adviser to offset a leader with one in military and didn't need to take out that many loans. You can only use the loan strategy if you have a plan to get out of it. I took out maybe 10 loans and used it to have that adviser and build a gigantic navy with which I used to dominate two trade nodes and was running in the green with that adviser after about 10-15 years. Sounds like you weren't managing stability or were endlessly warmongering. By the end of the demo I had won a couple wars, had an unstoppable navy, and was making enough money to easily handle the remaining loans. Taking out a bunch of loans isn't even a problem as a large country if you aren't letting yourself get bogged down in dumb wars and investing that gold properly. Quill was taking out loans because he kept getting into ridiculous wars nonstop not as a means to improve his country.
 

beckermt

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There is a maximum number of loans you can take. And each loan increases your inflation. And if you can't pay back a loan when it becomes due, it gets rolled over with a higher interest rate (and the rolled over loan increases inflation again).

Interest rates don't increase in EU4 when rolling over a loan.
 

TyrannisUmbra

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The thing that I think people are forgetting is that in EU3, you're not just some random guy asking for a loan. You're the government of a country. Running a deficit is what the majority of countries /do/. Different rules apply than what you'd have when you go out and ask for a loan.

Not to mention two things: You do have an upper limit on loans, and once you go bankrupt, your country gets completely trashed.

Loans testing screenshots:
No loans, clean country
EU4%20Portugal%20Loans%20demonstration%201.png

One loan taken
EU4%20Portugal%20Loans%20demonstration%202.png

Max loans taken
EU4%20Portugal%20Loans%20demonstration%203.png

Pre-bankruptcy
EU4%20Portugal%20Loans%20demonstration%204.png

Post-bankruptcy. Notice how I can only take out a fourth of the number of loans now.
EU4%20Portugal%20Loans%20demonstration%205.png
 

thebigj_a

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The problem was that the OP didn't/doesn't understand the absolute basics of how loans, and interest, and inflation (and perhaps even just percentages) work. So even though it was explained repeatedly several times, and from a fairly basic level, he just wasn't grasping it. He thought of the 'take loan' button as a free money button somehow.
 

Gemberkoekje

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All natural and technological processes proceed in such a way that the availability of the remaining energy decreases.
In all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves an isolated system, the entropy of that system increases.

Energy continuously flows from being concentrated, to becoming dispersed, spread out, wasted and useless.
New energy cannot be created and high grade energy is being destroyed. An economy based on endless growth is...
Un-sus-tain-able!
 

Alerias

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I know that what you're saying is supposed to happen, but it doesn't seem to actually be enforced. Like I said, in his game there doesn't seem to be any consequence to the compounding interest because he can just take ANOTHER loan.

That's what I don't get.

The game is balanced so that you can survive dozens of loans, its WAD. In multiplayer, Johan 'won' a game where his France was in triple digit loans in a past dev diary.

Inflation and interests are real. But theyre small numbers now, that add up over time. Theres no problem with running a dozen loans, if you took them for good reasons (expansion and development).