No organisation update for UK Forces !

[Alex_brunius]

Yes I had no idea I assumed 100 percent was 100 percent, honestly dont agree with 140 giving a bonus. There is such a thing as to much of a chain of command but if thats what they did then have to deal with it.

The way I look at it is that leadership doesn't represent the truly smart people (they could never go from being scientist to officers), but their support personnel. I'm talking about all the secretaries and assistants that can quickly be moved around and trained and at this time really did multiply the efficiency off whatever person they are assigned to.

And while it might be standard to give a General say 10 assistants a few more will not do any harm.

 

[delra]

Hmm, doesn't the AI already shoot for 140%?

That code looks like AIs are asked to shoot at 120%? Maybe adding lines to handle 121-139% range with even smaller priority would be in order?

Something like:

	elseif officer_ratio  < 1.38 then
		LEADERSHIP_NCO = 0.1

 

[Lothos]

Hmm, doesn't the AI already shoot for 140%?

-- Checks to see if you are loosing officers
	--   if so take them from espionage and diplomacy
	if officer_ratio < 1.0 then
		-- Move the Espionage into the NCO and set it to 0 since we are short
		LEADERSHIP_NCO = 0.5 + LEADERSHIP_ESPIONAGE
		LEADERSHIP_ESPIONAGE = 0.0
		lbNCONeeded = true
	elseif officer_ratio < 1.05 then
		LEADERSHIP_NCO = 0.3
	elseif officer_ratio  < 1.2 then
		LEADERSHIP_NCO = 0.2
	
	-- Check to see if you have to many officers
	--    if so increase research
	elseif officer_ratio > 1.39 then
		LEADERSHIP_NCO = 0.0
	end

No it does not Dark, it pretty much gets cut off when it hits 1.0, at 1.05 and above it starts to lower the slider to try and bring the number back down. The AI is really trying to hit the 100 percent mark and it takes a huge effort for all the minors to hit the 140 mark. I think the only option here is to make it so major powers only strive for the 140 mark but I am not sure.

 

[Alex_brunius]

I think the only option here is to make it so major powers only strive for the 140 mark but I am not sure.

Id say some Nations need 140 but not most off them. While Germany defenatelly should and probably UK and Japan too it's unrealistic to have Soviet and China aim for 140 imho.

 

[JASGripen]

As the cat is out of the sandbox, I am confident that it is just to easy to get 140 in officers for a random country. The thing is that you can not just push a button and get an excellent Officer ratio (in game terms that is, a competent officer corps). It is very much a cultural thing. For Germany it dates back to Scharnhorst, so it takes time. Some countries try and try but really never get above a certain abstract cap.

I would like to see the level of officers have different caps for different countries. Every country can reach its potential, but the potential is not the same for each country.
Of course in the long run every country would have the same caps, it is not a genetic thing, but this game just spans a short time and not the long durée.

Germany would get the highest possible (140 or higher if it is suitable). The Soviet union under Stalin would never get very much as initiative might give you a shot in the neck or the Gulag, say 110. The midrange countries would dwell at 120 or 130 (no fine tuning). I do not suggest anything extreme and upsetting towards gamebalance, but at least some diversity.

 

[Alex_brunius]

As the cat is out of the sandbox, I am confident that it is just to easy to get 140 in officers for a random country. The thing is that you can not just push a button and get an excellent Officer ratio (in game terms that is, a competent officer corps). It is very much a cultural thing. For Germany it dates back to Scharnhorst, so it takes time. Some countries try and try but really never get above a certain abstract cap.

I would like to see the level of officers have different caps for different countries. Every country can reach its potential, but the potential is not the same for each country.
Of course in the long run every country would have the same caps, it is not a genetic thing, but this game just spans a short time and not the long durée.

I like this Idea, it would be very cool if the cap also was possible to improve long term. Perhaps +1% per doctrine researched or +x% where x is your amount of combat practical gained?

And possibly also different for different arms (even if that is more off a HoI4 idea): Say the German navy need time to catch up to army standards just as the Japanese army doesn't match its navy in competent officers.

 

[delra]

I would like to see the level of officers have different caps for different countries.

You have to realize that lots of people would be plain angry at this kind of determinism - me included. Maybe one of doctrines could handle the max cap here?

 

[Alex_brunius]

You have to realize that lots of people would be plain angry at this kind of determinism - me included. Maybe one of doctrines could handle the max cap here?

Probably the easiest solution. Is this possible to mod?

 

[JASGripen]

You have to realize that lots of people would be plain angry at this kind of determinism - me included. Maybe one of doctrines could handle the max cap here?

Well I can take your anger

On a serious note, as I described it it might be deterministic in one way, but it is just because of the relative short time span of the game, not because of any longer heglian determinism.

But sure the doctrines could be the way to do it. I have actually suggested exactly that before but with no result.

 

[eqqman]

I was in the military 8 years and I know that very well but even then you have a fixed number of officer positions, 100 percent is 100 percent and if you go one over someone gets transfered some where else where they are short. THere is no such thing as having 140 percent above staff. You can be short on staff but never over and if you are over it is for a short period of time due to perhaps training or a promotion and someone simply gets transfered.

If you are a former military man I don't understand why this would cause any confusion at all. As has already been pointed out, 100% should be viewed as the *minimum* requirement of officers and NCOs to run your armed forces. If you are willing to incur the costs of having extra personnel, then you are over 100% of your *minimum* strength. If you are at less than 100%, you get a penalty since you are overstaffed. If you are higher than 100%, then you get a bonus since you have the extra manpower to ensure that only the best leaders are serving on the line, while the rest are running operations in the rear or getting training in war colleges. Or, as you pointed out, are on hand to instantly fit out any new divisions that get created. In my own Army experiences staff was double-slotted all the time, it is no stretch to envision that at a national level you are overstaffed and can't just even things out by giving everyone the exact job they are qualified for. Even in the 30s the Army was top-heavy with officers and Ike came close to getting pushed out without any troops for him to command, so I find over-staffing both logical and historical.

 

[delra]

Well I can take your anger

Can you take Oliver's?

On a serious note, as I described it it might be deterministic in one way, but it is just because of the relative short time span of the game, not because of any longer heglian determinism.

But sure the doctrines could be the way to do it. I have actually suggested exactly that before but with no result.

HoI3 is already lacking a huge chunk of replay value EU3 or Vicky2 are having because it gimps almost all countries on the map in the leadership. You'd just make it worse if you forced lower org on everyone who plays weaker majors.

 

[JASGripen]

HoI3 is already lacking a huge chunk of replay value EU3 or Vicky2 are having because it gimps almost all countries on the map in the leadership. You'd just make it worse if you forced lower org on everyone who plays weaker majors.

I do not think so as I am not very extreme in my suggestion, besides one can use Leadership for other things than leadership officers isn't a freebie even if it is well invested LS. I for my part would like the game to reflect WWII a bit more than it does. The game has gone a long way in that direction since release so the intentions are clear even if there are much to do still.

 

[Slan]

No it does not Dark, it pretty much gets cut off when it hits 1.0, at 1.05 and above it starts to lower the slider to try and bring the number back down. The AI is really trying to hit the 100 percent mark and it takes a huge effort for all the minors to hit the 140 mark. I think the only option here is to make it so major powers only strive for the 140 mark but I am not sure.

You mean 30% of your total Leadership is cutting down? How much would you want to allocate anyway?

 

[Lothos]

You mean 30% of your total Leadership is cutting down? How much would you want to allocate anyway?

I can do what was done in the emergency code and pull the diplomatic stuff temporarily over

 

[Slan]

I can do what was done in the emergency code and pull the diplomatic stuff temporarily over

But is that necessary? I mean spending 30% Leadership on Officers is a considerable amount. Or at least I rarely spend that much unless there's some serious trouble. Although I don't really try too hard to go much above around 120% either.

 

[unmerged(331487)]

You have to realize that lots of people would be plain angry at this kind of determinism - me included. Maybe one of doctrines could handle the max cap here?

Its the same for technology already there. No one complains about the SU lacking in naval tech ^^.

And most people would agree, that even if there were many French officers, they simply were not able to handle a blitzkrieg...

 

[Dakk]

If you are a former military man I don't understand why this would cause any confusion at all. As has already been pointed out, 100% should be viewed as the *minimum* requirement of officers and NCOs to run your armed forces.

Either it's optimal - 100% - or it's not (and hence <100%). Having more staff available is just for replenishing. I agree fully (140%?) with Lothos that it's wrong to have 140% act as 100%. People complained about this way back, before SF even, and eventually it got dialled down to 140% from 200%. I personally can't stand that 140% is the baseline, but then again I feel my wrath building when I hear sports people on TV go "I'm going push myself to the limits man, I'm gonna do 200%!". Ugh. Also, the glass of water analogy from Lothos stands. Than anyone wants to fill it with beer instead is just faulty comparison. And finally, if it were to represent some kind of "extra high quality personnel" and "best leaders on the line", that should be done with doctrines.

100% is 100%, it's called mathematics.

 

[unmerged(331487)]

I think its really just that 100% represents not best of ability, but minimum officers needed.

As in. If you have all the officers you need. The roster is full. 140% is supposed to represent that you have 4 extras for every ten 10, if an arty shell strikes the wrong guy.

But yeah 100% is 100%. If its the baseline, than make it the baseline. Nobody expects some stats to go beyond 100%.

Same for a fighter squadron. Having more planes than 100% would be good too, but they only replenish up to 100% just the same.

 

[Slan]

100% is 100%, it's called mathematics.

Alright. So getting 140% of your salary is the same as getting 100% of your salary, you can't spend the additional 40%.

100% has no meaning on its own, it's only a comparasion to something. What that something is is not really explained in the game though. The whole confusion around this topic is that people define this 100% differently. Some of you define it as 100% that's humanly possible, others define it as the average. (I for one tend to agree with the later.)

 

[jimmy55]

Army is worse, about 7-8 Bdes and over a hundred brigadadiers! When they cut the army again I expect they will set up a commitee of these senior officers to work out where the inefficencies lie in the junior ranks and thereby create a few more brigadadier posts to make the recommendations. We will be the UK Denfence Force soon.