No naval revamp in 1.5 per podcat
- Thread starter Meglok
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No naval revamp.
Air warfare still contains teleport engines
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Guess we have to wait few more expansions for that.
Do we have any ETA on this things?
Air warfare still contains teleport engines
.Guess we have to wait few more expansions for that
.Do we have any ETA on this things?
I'd expect it to come with the next DLC after Tiger. I'm going to venture and guess Mediteranean focused: Spain/Portugal/Greece/Bulgaria/Turkey (unless they get combined with the middle east). With an Italian focus tree rework to mesh it with the others. That's the route Paradox seems to be taking; retweek the majors in a region when the minors get their own trees so they interact. A Mediterranean DLC would be a good reason to address naval combat, as it's so core to the gameplay for the region
I'd expect a South American rework after with a USA upgrade.
I'd expect a South American rework after with a USA upgrade.
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I can understand a major naval revamp being left for the next DLC in order to do it properly. But it would be good to see A reballance of Subs/ Destroyers in this DLC just to make Subs a more viable option
@Axe99 what changes in Subs and destroyers have you implemented in your naval mod?
@Axe99 what changes in Subs and destroyers have you implemented in your naval mod?
The issues with subs sadly run deeper than a stat rebalance. If the devs were looking to improve it, I wouldn't recommend copying what I've done (which is very work-aroundy and far from perfect, but it's the best I could do with the combination of the levers we have and what I could make of them - others may be able to do better - but the devs have a lot more scope to adjust things a modder does
), but rather experiment with things like have escorts, subs and convoys all appear next to each other (my mod gives subs ridiculous speeds so they can reach convoys before escorts close with them), reduce ASW attack so that subs are more often damaged and retreat, rather than be wiped out in droves, and no longer have DD torpedo attack damage subs (some subs were torpedoed, but usually by other subs). That'd still take a fair bit of balancing and testing though, so it may well not be a small thing in the context of the DLC/patch content already in the pipeline - and it may not necessarily be a terribly efficient use of resources if it's put in as a 'patch job' that gets torn up and done again in under a year.I'd also expect it's the case that it's getting fairly late in the piece to increase the scope of a DLC. This depends on the release timing of course, but best-case I'd guess it as very difficult, and worst case as impossible - they'll have deadlines to meet, and new content that might be a couple of days work if they're lucky, and longer if they're not, may not be feasible. The other thing to keep in mind is if subs start to be historically plausibly effect, particularly if convoys continue to have static and sometimes strategically unwise routes, the balance implications are enormous - so it's not just getting the mechanics right, but then the balancing that goes with it.
Don't get me wrong, Commerce warfare (of which the sub/escort balance is one of the most important parts) is in my top three naval issues worth fixing, and I'm right keen on the naval side of the game, but any naval changes beyond the very minor are going to have huge balance implications, and that's likely to make them tricky to 'quick fix'.
Edit: I'd like nothing better than for the devs to prove me wrong though
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ThanksThe issues with subs sadly run deeper than a stat rebalance. If the devs were looking to improve it, I wouldn't recommend copying what I've done (which is very work-aroundy and far from perfect, but it's the best I could do with the combination of the levers we have and what I could make of them - others may be able to do better - but the devs have a lot more scope to adjust things a modder does
I'd also expect it's the case that it's getting fairly late in the piece to increase the scope of a DLC. This depends on the release timing of course, but best-case I'd guess it as very difficult, and worst case as impossible - they'll have deadlines to meet, and new content that might be a couple of days work if they're lucky, and longer if they're not, may not be feasible. The other thing to keep in mind is if subs start to be historically plausibly effect, particularly if convoys continue to have static and sometimes strategically unwise routes, the balance implications are enormous - so it's not just getting the mechanics right, but then the balancing that goes with it.
Don't get me wrong, Commerce warfare (of which the sub/escort balance is one of the most important parts) is in my top three naval issues worth fixing, and I'm right keen on the naval side of the game, but any naval changes beyond the very minor are going to have huge balance implications, and that's likely to make them tricky to 'quick fix'.
Edit: I'd like nothing better than for the devs to prove me wrong though
Yeah, I can really see this. Like it or not, Europe is priority when it comes to NF-trees. Don't think Turkey, though. Their involvement in the war was minimal and their navy in the worst shape of their three outdated military branches.
No naval revamp.
Air warfare still contains teleport engines
Guess we have to wait few more expansions for that
Do we have any ETA on this things?
I really have to second this. I put this game down for 6ish months hoping that the strategic war (use of naval, air power, strategic air power, and supply) would be playable in a meaningful way... I came back to find that strategic warfare is still pretty much non-functional and that the AI still basically ignores it. France still stupidly burns it's equipment in Lorraine; Germany having a Mediterranean port still doesn't help it trade with Turkey if there's a blockade in the English Chanel, the smaller air zones combined with teleporting planes continue to give the attacker a huge and unrealistic advantage in the strategic/attritional air war. Basically the mechanics for ground combat are pretty good, research/national focus work pretty well with some mods (but are pretty lame in the base game), the production system is cool (though seriously handicapped by the logistics system), but the rest of the game is badly broken. The expansion is focused on fixing.... none of the issues that break the strategic balance in Europe or the non-mainland Pacific.
Them not making dev diaries about it doesn't mean they're not working on it though. They've said before AI is a continuous effort (as it is across all PDX-made games, really).
Maybe they'll do a dev diary about it closer to release, if enough people are interested.
I imagine the AI duo has touched the Naval aspect some. The new programmer I remember mentioning he wanted to do lots of naval fixes. Also with 6-8 months of both steelvolt and his buddy I have feeling this is where podcat gets his "not that we've done nothing."
As to the announcement, I'm not disappointed because I know podcat will redo the navy and do it right. Its just that I'm impatient for it. Also navy is where I spend most of my time.
As to the announcement, I'm not disappointed because I know podcat will redo the navy and do it right. Its just that I'm impatient for it
. Also navy is where I spend most of my time.
Yeah I meant hypothetical, like in some bizarre scenario- that's about the only thing that would pour water on the fire for how the devs are shaping Hoi...
... and anticipation of just where it could be a few juicy dlc down the line, let alone years as it seems to gaining solid gamer play that could sustain a long run of expansion.
Just hope that the Corporate Pdox don't thin the Hoi team down again anytime soon.
Diaries about what they are doing to improve balance and ai play are always right at the end of the release process because they are testing right up until the cut off date. If a fix or change isn't working quite right it gets cut for the hot fixes if it is minor snafu or for the next big patch if it is a major fubar. So they don't start talking about code changes until they know for sure what is being released.
When the large rework eventually comes (next summer I imagine) I really want to see subs and convoy raiding in general taken out of the same naval mechanics as surface engagements between warships. They should have entirely separate mechanics even if they are done in a more abstract fashion.
In the meantime, I would settle for a small tweak which made subs somewhat harder to kill. The biggest problem with them at the moment is that their survivability is too low.
In the meantime, I would settle for a small tweak which made subs somewhat harder to kill. The biggest problem with them at the moment is that their survivability is too low.
I think it's all but guaranteed enough people will be [more than] interested. The AI is so crucial in a GSG. You can have almost anything else broken and people won't holler about it nearly as much as they do for the AI. Get that right and the rest is clear sailing.
TBH, I'm hoping that naval rework and reworked focus tree is part of free update and not the DLC.
If the reworked focus tree is part of the DLC, it's like "Hey, we've fixed this, but it'll cost an extra arm and a leg" (what, games treated like cars now?)
If the reworked focus tree is part of the DLC, it's like "Hey, we've fixed this, but it'll cost an extra arm and a leg" (what, games treated like cars now?)
From podcats latest comnent about naval warfare I imagine we'll get some tweak or short-term fix with Cornflakes to deal with the biggest issue, but the big overhaul will wait until the next DLC.
Happy about the communication, sad that naval combat (a non-trivial to major part of WW2, especially in the Pacific) is still broken, what, 18 months post-release? Guess I'll check again on things in 6-8 months.
What I always said is that submarines need to be active in the same layers as their targets are.
If the convoys are offmap submarines should be handled as offmap units too ( and so should the convoy escorts ).
If the convoys appear in battles, submarines should also appear in battle.
( This doesn't mean subs necessarily must be offmap, you could also make all convoys always onmap )
The biggest challenges with offmap submarine raiding though is how do you show it well in the UI without popup spam (or battle report spam) and in a way that makes you understand what goes on (see what upgrades your subs/escorts are lacking and whats killing them ). It should result in more attrition based combat similar to air though, which is a desired effect.