No more Invulnerable Tanks

[coregonas]

Tired of playing with invulnerable Panzer Is... having a huge 60% hardness with a crap 14 mm plate, i decided just to do it myself. We ve adjusted all tanks in game, to represent as much possible as game allows historical tanks.

No more Pz IV = T34 = Sherman. A tank with 15mm plate has same hardness or armor.... be it a medium tank or a tankette.


HISTORIC STATS mod:
Modifications are 100% compatible with Total War Blackice Submod, a mod that makes playable the game as much as the engine allows, and this one is 100% compatible with Blackice.

All tanks are adjusted to historical values. Some majors still not have a unique tech tree, but soon will have one.

Feedback is welcome.

 

[Khevenhuller]

They will come and burn you alive for this sort of heresy you know...

K

 

[Bolshevik-]

Yeah well its not a big deal since you don't even need tanks to win in single-player. In multiplayer sure but you barely ever see tank vs tank battles.

 

[hkrommel]

Yikes those are a lot of techs with long research times. I hope you added a research slot or two to compensate. Also get ready for people to challenge your stat metrics.

Edit: On that last point I have no idea why you'd calculate piercing at 2km for late war tanks. The average engagement still occurred within 500m, and it was rare you could even pick a target let alone shoot at it and then hit it at over 1km away. This decision is going to screw over Allied tanks in particular since they usually encountered the Germans at closer ranges due to where they were fighting, thus extreme range penetration was never a priority.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Tired of playing with invulnerable Panzer Is... having a huge 60% hardness with a crap 14 mm plate, i decided just to do it myself.

Soft attack represents shrapnel from explosions as well as small arms fire, which is exactly what 10-20 mm armor is designed to stop and will stop just fine.

Most units also have hard attack, which becomes more effective vs tanks, so it's not like you become "invulnerable".


Why on earth do you think all sides would mass produce mechanized vehicles with 6-15 mm of armor latewar if that kind of armor wasn't effective at stopping small arms and shrapnel?

 

[Bolshevik-]

Just to say, I feel Paradox should really change the tanks up to make it more historical. For example, make the T-34 have less reliability than its Panzer IV counterpart. Then also make the T-34 stronger than the Panzer IV. Same with all tanks. I agree I feel there should be more historical realism here:/

 

[xtfoster]

All I will say is: Register your game/Link your Steam account so you can post this in the Mods Sub-Forum where it belongs.

 

[hkrommel]

Just to say, I feel Paradox should really change the tanks up to make it more historical. For example, make the T-34 have less reliability than its Panzer IV counterpart. Then also make the T-34 stronger than the Panzer IV. Same with all tanks. I agree I feel there should be more historical realism here:/

Which T-34? Which Pz IV? How much stronger, and why? What stats need changing? What are you basing those stat changes on? At the end of the day you end up with a mod like this one, with a monstrous tech tree that unbalances research and arbitrary stat calculations at times based on ridiculous standards (armor penetration at 2 km), misunderstanding of roles (armor hardness as @Alex_brunius pointed out), and outright sketchy data found in German and Soviet field tests.

To represent tanks in-game you need to:

A. Have the Paradox approach where the tank names are largely flavor, and the Panther is really "1943 medium tank" (which depending on how your game goes may or may not be an actual Panther as the historical needs and influences which spawned the Panther historically may or may not exist 7 years into the game).

B. Take this mod's approach, where you have "historical" tanks even though the historical factors which caused those tanks to be built historically may not exist because this isn't a historical game in the sense that things don't happen the same way they did historically. This adds some flavor but ultimately IMHO it's clutter, not to mention it severely unbalances the game.

Example: It's 1943 and the Soviets have been pushed back to Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad and their conscription has hurt their ability to extract raw materials. They aren't receiving lend-lease raw materials. Do the Soviets design the IS-2 as they did historically? Of course not. The resources cost would be too high, and the role itself may be different (a defensive vs. offensive weapon). That's the problem with these mods, they assume a level of historical detail will be held to, when it never is.

 

[Khevenhuller]

Just to say, I feel Paradox should really change the tanks up to make it more historical. For example, make the T-34 have less reliability than its Panzer IV counterpart. Then also make the T-34 stronger than the Panzer IV. Same with all tanks. I agree I feel there should be more historical realism here:/

Another one that will be taken away. You are challenging orthodoxy here, and the PDX defenders who support mediocrity and poor research and all the rest will come and get you with a white coat that has the sleeves sewn up...

K

 

[epicmemory]

I personally find Paradox's approach (heavy on the sandbox/equal states) to be ideal for the vanilla game, while allowing mods to focus on the actual stats and variations in performance capability of actual WW2 gear in a more intricate fashion. Players that want a Black ICE style of game are free to adopt the mod, people who want a sandbox game can keep their original versions. It's a good mix of both worlds.

I see absolutely no reason that a Germany player, for example, should be bound to produce Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf. Js in February of '44 with their authentic and historical performance (as far as can be measured and applied to HOI4 mechanics). It's beyond ludicrous, as it completely ignores everything that has happened during the actual game, including player-led research and development via variants. Once we start forcing tech developments, especially with regards to the performance standards of late-war German armour, as far late as 1944, we might as well begin scripting production numbers, battle plans, and pretty much everything else.

I suppose you could make the Ausf. J an option, and then also have a historical option available for an even more souped up Panzer IV...but by the time the Ausf Hs and Js were around, it was pretty much considered that the chassis was maxed out (failed attempts to mount larger guns and all that). Could be wrong, of course.

That said, props to the OP for doing this, and when I pick up Black ICE again in a few months, I'll be sure to check this out! I love me some historical stats, now all we need is a proper OOB and we'll be well on our way.

 

[safe-keeper]

Just to say, I feel Paradox should really change the tanks up to make it more historical. For example, make the T-34 have less reliability than its Panzer IV counterpart. Then also make the T-34 stronger than the Panzer IV. Same with all tanks. I agree I feel there should be more historical realism here:/

On the one hand, they're strictly speaking not "Panzer IVs" and "Shermans", but generic tanks with a flavour name and label. Then you as a player are free to customize them as you wish. If you want the Panzer IV to have a heavy gun and a powerful engine, go ahead. If you want it to be a multi-purpose vehicle with all 2s and 3s, more power to you. There are great grognard mods like BlackICE that ditch the sandbox approach and make things more authentic, but that's not what the core game is going for, and I can't say I dislike being able to custom-tailor things to my liking.

Keep in mind this is a Paradox game, which have always had generic units like "Carracks" and "Spearmen". You can't build "Longboats" in CK2, for example, you build fleets like everyone else, that just happen to be able to sail up rivers. They just put in some extra effort for HOI4 and gave some nations their own flavour names, images, and 3D models.

On the other hand, as has been discussed here, the variants system does need some work, as right now every tanks is eventually a 5-5-5-5. Why go for historical authenticity when you'll inevitably be swimming in XP and can instantly max out all the stats? Limiting how much, and how, variants can be upgraded, as well as making things like national focii and design companies play a bigger role, will fix this in the future, but right now it's a bit of a joke.

Also, it'd be neat if the AI made their variants resemble those of real life .

 

[amalric de g.]

and outright sketchy data found in German and Soviet field tests.

And the US field tests are not sketchy?

 

[Riftwalker]

see what i'd really prefer to see is a retooled generic focus tree that has options for Infantry Support tanks (you know like the matildas or valentines, slow, good soft attack and armor but poor piercing and hard attack), amphibious options, along with possibly scout vehicles and what not.

 

[FrancescoT]

@coregonas please register your game / sync your steam account to access User Mods Sub-forum.