• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Rommel 459

Major
130 Badges
Jun 9, 2005
654
117
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Starvoid
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Deus Vult
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • East India Company Collection
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
Most light Carriers were conversions of light cruisers.

Most escort carriers were conversions of merchant shipping.

this is part of why they were built so much more rapidly, but since HoI has no mechanic for converting partially built/completely built ships into other classes doing this ingame is literally impossible.
 

Axe99

Ships for Victory
127 Badges
Feb 13, 2003
15.951
13.022
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Lead and Gold
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
Axe, one consideration for AA is the various arcs of fire. Standard surface vessels tend to have a roughly pyramidal superstructure, while carriers usually hang their AA in buckets off the side of the flight deck. Most carrier AA guns would have very sharply restricted arcs of fire because of this placement. And on the same point, the ships surrounding the carrier would (mostly) shoot out away from the center. Without careful attention, the carrier could be shooting more or less out at its own escorts (even high-angle shells come down eventually).

My father served in the Pacific in WW2 (US 6th Army) and told me how carefully the ships in his transport group planned out their AA firing arcs so as to avoid hitting each other.

For US ships, don't count any 5" except the 5'/38 dual-purpose. One reason for refitting the old battleships after Pearl Harbor was because their old 5" guns had no AA capability.

I think I remember hearing that the 40mm was considered the most effective AA weapon of the war but I can't swear to it. The US 5"/38 was widely considered the best dual-purpose gun of the war and US AA gun control was as good as anyone's, so US (and some British) ships probably deserve an edge in AA.

Cheers as ever Director :). The point on AA Arcs is a good one. Would you say that carrier AA would be roughly half/a third/something else as 'efficient' as per a ship with a more standard configuration? Just looking for a way to weight it appropriately compared with a DD/CL/CA/BB, to come up with indicative stats for AA strength (based on AA throw weight/minute - not perfect I know, and I'm trying to take into account a few other things, but reckon I can get it more historical than the stats in the wiki at least - not suggesting that historical necessarily makes for a better game (although, clearly, personally I prefer it).

Also, on the US 5", what about the Mk 10/11/13/17 (here)? I haven't crunched the numbers for it yet, but it looked to be a secondary AAA-specific weapon like the British 4" Mark whatever-it-was (sorry, can look it up if you want me to, but suspect you know which gun I'm talking about) that popped up I think in the 1920s.

Most light Carriers were conversions of light cruisers.

Most escort carriers were conversions of merchant shipping.

this is part of why they were built so much more rapidly, but since HoI has no mechanic for converting partially built/completely built ships into other classes doing this ingame is literally impossible.

The 9 Independence class were, but I'm pretty sure the eight Colossus, five Majestic and four Centaur British CVLs laid down during the war (but many not finished until afterwards) were purpose built as such, and I think the two Saipans might have been as well, but not entirely confident of my memory there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_40_mm_gun Certainly quite popular among the allies.

It also got a run as the 40mm Flak 28 for the Germans, and the Japanese copied a 40mm they captured at Singapore and had their own version. It was so good, everyone wanted one :).
 

SchwarzKatze

Field Marshal
45 Badges
Nov 8, 2008
5.827
4.439
It also got a run as the 40mm Flak 28 for the Germans, and the Japanese copied a 40mm they captured at Singapore and had their own version. It was so good, everyone wanted one :).
So was the 20mm Oerlikon & licensed derivatives earlier.;)
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Rommel 459

Major
130 Badges
Jun 9, 2005
654
117
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Starvoid
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Deus Vult
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • East India Company Collection
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
The 9 Independence class were, but I'm pretty sure the eight Colossus, five Majestic and four Centaur British CVLs laid down during the war (but many not finished until afterwards) were purpose built as such, and I think the two Saipans might have been as well, but not entirely confident of my memory there.
Of the eight Colossus only 4 were complete before the wars end, The 5 majestic were from the 50's through 60's, the first Centaur was commissioned in 53.
The Saipan class were based (designed?) upon cruiser hulls, but were indeed built from the hull up as carriers, they were finished right as ww2 ended


it took 14 months to build the Hornet CV
15 months for the Essex

Saipan Class CVL's 12/13 months build time
Going back to the colossus class carriers, the original plan was to build them in 21 months, they eventually had to extend the schedule to 27 months, and only 2 of the 4 managed to meet that revised schedule.
my point is CVL's weren't as fast to build compared to CV's as people in this thread are claiming they were once you account for the fact that they're conversions.

an interesting article for this topic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1942_Design_Light_Fleet_Carrier#Design_and_construction, seems like the British CVL's all evolved from the Colossus class, which i found interesting.

It also got a run as the 40mm Flak 28 for the Germans, and the Japanese copied a 40mm they captured at Singapore and had their own version. It was so good, everyone wanted one :).
I hadn't realized they were copied that extensively on the axis side as well. Awesome.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Pasta_Man

First Lieutenant
57 Badges
Apr 20, 2006
252
481
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
Of the eight Colossus only 4 were complete before the wars end, The 5 majestic were from the 50's through 60's, the first Centaur was commissioned in 53.
The Saipan class were based (designed?) upon cruiser hulls, but were indeed built from the hull up as carriers, they were finished right as ww2 ended


it took 14 months to build the Hornet CV
15 months for the Essex

Saipan Class CVL's 12/13 months build time
Going back to the colossus class carriers, the original plan was to build them in 21 months, they eventually had to extend the schedule to 27 months, and only 2 of the 4 managed to meet that revised schedule.
my point is CVL's weren't as fast to build compared to CV's as people in this thread are claiming they were once you account for the fact that they're conversions.

an interesting article for this topic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1942_Design_Light_Fleet_Carrier#Design_and_construction, seems like the British CVL's all evolved from the Colossus class, which i found interesting.QUOTE]
.

Considering how many of those were built at Harland and Wolff I still can't understand why the Northern Ireland state has such a limited number of dockyards. I don't think people realise what a huge operation the Belfast shipyards actually were. Anyway, that's not relevant to this thread, but that link got me thinking about it again
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Axe99

Ships for Victory
127 Badges
Feb 13, 2003
15.951
13.022
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Lead and Gold
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
Of the eight Colossus only 4 were complete before the wars end, The 5 majestic were from the 50's through 60's, the first Centaur was commissioned in 53.
The Saipan class were based (designed?) upon cruiser hulls, but were indeed built from the hull up as carriers, they were finished right as ww2 ended.

Aye, I mentioned in my post that most of the British CVLs were only laid down during the war (once it was clear they weren't going to be finished by the time the war ended, the Brits slowed down a heap on building, I suspect in no small part because they were nearly bankrupt, while the US could afford to 'finish off' its ships a lot better - if the war had gone until 1947 against an enemy with a naval presence, I expect that most of those CVLs would have been completed before war's end, but the UK would have had to borrow even more from the US), but you didn't say "Most light carriers during the war", just "most light carriers" :p. On the issue in question, the Brits (when they were building to complete, as opposed to putting them on hold for a few years while they balanaced the books) did build CVLs quicker than CVs. The Saipan's weren't finished until 1946/1947, so it's a bit hard to tell how quick they could have been built during wartime, as the US slowed down their construction when it became clear they'd got the job done as well (they just didn't slow as hard or for as long as the British). I'd say that, in general, CVLs should be quicker to build than CVs even if they're not converted cruiser hulls.

it took 14 months to build the Hornet CV
15 months for the Essex

Saipan Class CVL's 12/13 months build time
Going back to the colossus class carriers, the original plan was to build them in 21 months, they eventually had to extend the schedule to 27 months, and only 2 of the 4 managed to meet that revised schedule.
my point is CVL's weren't as fast to build compared to CV's as people in this thread are claiming they were once you account for the fact that they're conversions.

an interesting article for this topic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1942_Design_Light_Fleet_Carrier#Design_and_construction, seems like the British CVL's all evolved from the Colossus class, which i found interesting.

Hornet was quick, and while Essex took 18 months from laid down to commissioned, the second Essex class ship, Yorktown, was finished in 15. However, these are greased lightning times for a CV to be built, and faster than the Independence class CVLs. I doubt, highly, that it's indicative, as 27,200 ton ship being quicker to build than a 10,660 ton ship in general just doesn't hold water. It'd be the equivalent of building battlecruisers because they're quicker to get out than CLs. Accordingly, I'd expect those times to be reflect relatively unique circumstances in the US at the time, and I'd bet a particular focus on the Essex class, or issues with the Independences.

If you compare the 13,190 ton Colossus CVLs (Colossus at 30 months, Glory at 32 months and Ocean at 33 months, according to Conways, unless I've got my math wrong) to the 23,450 ton Implacables (Implacable at 66 months, Indefatigueable at 54 months), we get a very different story, and one that I'd expect to be far more indicative of the difference in the time it took between building a CV vis-a-vis a CVL than the Essex/Independence example.

Not trying to have a go here, just trying to argue the point because I believe it's the case. At the end of the day, a ship that's more than twice as large should take a good deal longer, and I'd expect (but haven't done the research, so might be wrong) the historical examples that are exceptions to the rule have extenuating circumstances.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Rommel 459

Major
130 Badges
Jun 9, 2005
654
117
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Starvoid
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Deus Vult
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • East India Company Collection
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
Not trying to have a go here, just trying to argue the point because I believe it's the case. At the end of the day, a ship that's more than twice as large should take a good deal longer, and I'd expect (but haven't done the research, so might be wrong) the historical examples that are exceptions to the rule have extenuating circumstances.
I'm also not trying to argue with you personally, just arguing my point of view, Logically you're completely right, likewise i feel I'm accurate in saying the things i'm saying, We are in the position of arguing over something where being right isn't mutually exclusive, the problem we both have is that the purpose built CVL's weren't built until they were superfluous to winning the war, so you're Quite justified in saying they could have been built faster in some cases (I even tried ignoring the cases where that was obviously the case in my last response.) Likewise I'm justified i feel in pointing out that the mechanic for conversions isn't in the game and that most ships of this class were conversions, which is where the extreme low end of the building times come from.


I foresee a shipbuilding DLC which will include conversion mechanics.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Director

Maestro
34 Badges
Aug 13, 2002
5.400
3.347
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
Axe, the USN 1920's AA mount is a short-barreled, low muzzle velocity gun. That makes it light and fast to train on a target but probably less accurate and definitely short-ranged (so low altitude). Also please note that most of the pre-War BBs had 8 mounts, as opposed to 14, 16 or 20 of the 5"/38 dual-purpose they received after refit.

I'd say that Hornet and the Essex class carriers had the benefit of the shipyards going to round-the-clock shifts with trained men. As more ships were added to the construction list, the shifts would have continued 24/7 but there would be some slowdown while you train huge numbers of inexperienced workers. I'm not saying I'm right, just that this is what occurred to me. Also, Hornet was the third of the class, so there were few changes, and Essex made use of the Navy's standardized design. Propulsion plants, for one example, for all ships were set up as modular sets of boilers and turbines. If a ship was a destroyer it got one set of X, a cruiser got two sets of Y and so forth. This made for ease of construction, maintenance and training crews, and the occasional 'misfit' just meant a ship might be a knot slower or faster than expected.

US shipbuilding made good use of building components inland and assembling sections and components at the shipyard. Don't know how much this was used for the big ships but it became a common practice as it spread the workload out over wide areas. Germany used this for U-boats.

As I recall the idea behind converting the Cleveland light cruisers to Independence carriers had to do with the fact that they could build those hulls in more yards than could handle building an Essex and so could set up parallel streams to deliver carriers at around the same completion date. Independence commissioned 14 January 1943 and saw her first action 1 September 1943, roughly 9 months to shake-down and get to the theater. Essex commissioned 31 December 1942 - two weeks before Independence - and had a slightly quicker tool-up and arrival. But really, it looks like a lot of carriers were set up to arrive at just about the same time - September of 1943.

Some of the merchant (or tanker) hulls converted to CVEs were already built. Many were built from scratch to a merchant or tanker basic design and are 'conversions' only in the sense that the original design was modified, the ships were scratch-built to the modified design. The US Independence CVLs were of course converted while partly-built. I mention this well-known fact to point out that changing something while it is in the build-queue is probably not do-able without rewriting the mechanics. And if you just shorten the building time for a CVL you let the player keep his CLs under construction and get his CVLs too. I don't really see a good answer to that under the current mechanics except to just let CVLs be quick to build. I know that isn't strictly historic but, hey, they aren't using any fuel oil or avgas either.

I don't think you guys are arguing, just pointing out that the data looks different depending on how you slice it. Part of your disagreement is over how to model things in HoI4, and I think you will just have to set an 'average' construction time and then depend on the player to assign/re-assign factories as he sees fit.
 
  • 3
Reactions:

Axe99

Ships for Victory
127 Badges
Feb 13, 2003
15.951
13.022
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Lead and Gold
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
I'm also not trying to argue with you personally, just arguing my point of view, Logically you're completely right, likewise i feel I'm accurate in saying the things i'm saying, We are in the position of arguing over something where being right isn't mutually exclusive, the problem we both have is that the purpose built CVL's weren't built until they were superfluous to winning the war, so you're Quite justified in saying they could have been built faster in some cases (I even tried ignoring the cases where that was obviously the case in my last response.) Likewise I'm justified i feel in pointing out that the mechanic for conversions isn't in the game and that most ships of this class were conversions, which is where the extreme low end of the building times come from.

I foresee a shipbuilding DLC which will include conversion mechanics.

Aye, all good, and an interesting conversation :). And I'm sure most of us in this thread would love a shipbuilding DLC :D.

Axe, the USN 1920's AA mount is a short-barreled, low muzzle velocity gun. That makes it light and fast to train on a target but probably less accurate and definitely short-ranged (so low altitude). Also please note that most of the pre-War BBs had 8 mounts, as opposed to 14, 16 or 20 of the 5"/38 dual-purpose they received after refit.

I'd say that Hornet and the Essex class carriers had the benefit of the shipyards going to round-the-clock shifts with trained men. As more ships were added to the construction list, the shifts would have continued 24/7 but there would be some slowdown while you train huge numbers of inexperienced workers. I'm not saying I'm right, just that this is what occurred to me. Also, Hornet was the third of the class, so there were few changes, and Essex made use of the Navy's standardized design. Propulsion plants, for one example, for all ships were set up as modular sets of boilers and turbines. If a ship was a destroyer it got one set of X, a cruiser got two sets of Y and so forth. This made for ease of construction, maintenance and training crews, and the occasional 'misfit' just meant a ship might be a knot slower or faster than expected.

US shipbuilding made good use of building components inland and assembling sections and components at the shipyard. Don't know how much this was used for the big ships but it became a common practice as it spread the workload out over wide areas. Germany used this for U-boats.

As I recall the idea behind converting the Cleveland light cruisers to Independence carriers had to do with the fact that they could build those hulls in more yards than could handle building an Essex and so could set up parallel streams to deliver carriers at around the same completion date. Independence commissioned 14 January 1943 and saw her first action 1 September 1943, roughly 9 months to shake-down and get to the theater. Essex commissioned 31 December 1942 - two weeks before Independence - and had a slightly quicker tool-up and arrival. But really, it looks like a lot of carriers were set up to arrive at just about the same time - September of 1943.

Some of the merchant (or tanker) hulls converted to CVEs were already built. Many were built from scratch to a merchant or tanker basic design and are 'conversions' only in the sense that the original design was modified, the ships were scratch-built to the modified design. The US Independence CVLs were of course converted while partly-built. I mention this well-known fact to point out that changing something while it is in the build-queue is probably not do-able without rewriting the mechanics. And if you just shorten the building time for a CVL you let the player keep his CLs under construction and get his CVLs too. I don't really see a good answer to that under the current mechanics except to just let CVLs be quick to build. I know that isn't strictly historic but, hey, they aren't using any fuel oil or avgas either.

I don't think you guys are arguing, just pointing out that the data looks different depending on how you slice it. Part of your disagreement is over how to model things in HoI4, and I think you will just have to set an 'average' construction time and then depend on the player to assign/re-assign factories as he sees fit.

Aye, there's no question the 5"/38 was a better gun than the 5"/21, and not suggesting they should be treated equally - I was being very quick and dirty in my post above. Thanks, as ever, for your thoughts and insight :).