No Judaism

[Prime624]

I read a thread just now about adding Judaism to the game. It was closed (you can't silence the masses) so I started a new thread to ask this question.

If PI doesn't want the bad press about Jewish events, why do they just exclude them? If I was Jewish, (I'm atheist) I would be much more offended by the total absence of Judaism, the father of Christianity and Islam, than I would be about a few unhappy truths that did happen historically and as such, are represented in game.

"Yeah. We don't want to offend anybody so we'll just pretend like you never existed in the first place. It's not like they played a noticeable part in history anyway."


Come on. You can't hide the elephant in the room. Stop trying. At least add the religion as a minor thing (non-playable, no events, simple structure, etc).

 

[riknap]

if you really must ask, there are mods that add them.
if you really WANT them to appear in vanilla, for example, then don't bother. it's unlikely for devs to add a new culture/religion unless for specific reasons

 

[thesodality]

I agree with you but that doesn't change the fact that this thread will be closed soon.

edit- OT remark

 

[Theddude]

I agree as well; it's a sad thing that adding the Jewish faith to the game can't even be discussed because of sensitivity issues. The hugely important role Jewish people played in the middle ages gets totally glossed over because somebody might think that the mere mention of Jews is antisemitic. Gosh, ignoring the fact that Jewish people ever existed is a pretty extreme way to go about things (I'm not saying Paradox is doing this I understand why they do what they do, please don't ban me). I would like to see the Jewish religion added into the game, seeing as they were important and valued members of many Muslim societies and in fact the ruling class of the Khazars were Jewish.

 

[Prime624]

if you really must ask, there are mods that add them.
if you really WANT them to appear in vanilla, for example, then don't bother. it's unlikely for devs to add a new culture/religion unless for specific reasons

I don't really care either way, but it's a real shame. PI can't accept the fact that Jews actually mattered in medieval europe.

 

[kal56]

I agree as well; it's a sad thing that adding the Jewish faith to the game can't even be discussed because of sensitivity issues. The hugely important role Jewish people played in the middle ages gets totally glossed over because somebody might think that the mere mention of Jews is antisemitic. Gosh, ignoring the fact that Jewish people ever existed is a pretty extreme way to go about things (I'm not saying Paradox is doing this I understand why they do what they do, please don't ban me). I would like to see the Jewish religion added into the game, seeing as they were important and valued members of many Muslim societies and in fact the ruling class of the Khazars were Jewish.

The Khazar Jews fell before the time frame of the game.

I don't really care either way, but it's a real shame. PI can't accept the fact that Jews actually mattered in medieval europe.

There is no need to be so dramatic about this. This isn't an issue of PI refusing to believe that Jewish people matter. The fact is that no Jewish states or majority provinces existed in the game's time frame so they don't get much attention. Best case scenario you're looking at a few events in the game.

 

[Faarenough]

Funny we just did soething like this Anthropolgy. The easist way to deny any wrong doing by ones self aginst another culture/ethnicity/religion etc is to simply not mention them in any way or form. In this way you can remove unwanted events from your history with little to no resistance. It was funny as they were saying it is one of the most racist things you can do. They call it forgotten generations, I am sure Paradox is not doning this delibrately but it still made me laugh.

 

[ShiBDiB]

There is no need to be so dramatic about this. This isn't an issue of PI refusing to believe that Jewish people matter. The fact is that no Jewish states or majority provinces existed in the game's time frame so they don't get much attention. Best case scenario you're looking at a few events in the game.

This

People who make this complaint are attempting to make a mountain out of an ant hill.. Jews and the Jewish religion aren't ingame because they did not play any major role during this time frame.

 

[Tirunus]

I love PI, but dude, these are the same people did not even show the swastika in a game ABOUT world war II while also having a game that allows you to massacre natives by the thousands to make it easier to colonize.

 

[Talq]

these are the same people did not even show the swastika in a game ABOUT world war II

In that case, there are laws against its display in certain countries (notably Germany), and Paradox doesn't want the legal and administrative hassle (yes, censors can be very, very, very frustrating to deal with and even having the art in the game able to be modded in could raise issues, and cost lots of money).

Re: Jews. They aren't a majority in any province in this time period, so the only place they can go is events. Would a bunch of 'peasants go on an anti-Jewish rampage events' make you feel 'acknowledged'?

In any event, that you are even discussing moderation is pretty much an invite to thread closure.

 

[unmerged(569711)]

This

People who make this complaint are attempting to make a mountain out of an ant hill.. Jews and the Jewish religion aren't ingame because they did not play any major role during this time frame.

yea seriously this is exactly right

i hate that people keep bringing this up. Its not worth it to add another culture to the game. This is totally not an issue at all. Its just a fact that in this time period the Jews didn't change the fate of nations or lead massive armies and conquer kingdoms.

Adding them to the game like this is just not worth it. At most we'd get a couple events, and then what would those events even do? If I wanted to just read history I'd pull the one of the tons of books on my shelf out.

its a non issue let the devs fix the fatimids instead of focusing on this crap.

 

[kraussda]

In the same way one could argue that Jews are glossed over in this game, I could argue that tens of thousands of peasants within Kievan Rus were, in practically every meaningful way, more pagan than Christian for much, if not all, of the game's time frame (and more than likely beyond depending on how you look at defining being Christian). However, this is in no way represented within the game because the developers have a far narrower focus. This game is not a historical text. It simplifies the realities of history for the purpose of making a rather complicated game's rules interact and flow more smoothly. The developers have said, time and again, that gameplay comes before history when it comes to designing their games.

In particular I'd also like to address a point thedude and general disinfo made. I think there is a stark contrast between ignoring a groups influence on history and not including them in a game. In the same way you argue that, deliberately or not, Paradox's not including Jews in the game contributes to creating an a-historical view of the world in which Jews never existed, I could argue that the game Monopoly unfairly demonstrates the merits and drawbacks of a market economy. I will reiterate, the game is not a historical text.

Finally, I'm of Jewish descent, and would like to think that I have a pretty decent understanding of European history. It is my opinion that within the time frame of the game, Jews, as a group, did not have a profound effect on politics represented in game. Individual Jews certainly did, but there was no major movement or faction which identified through the Jewish faith or culture.

 

[Lord Finnish]

I think Jews were left out due to their small number and the way they were spread over across Europe, not because of Pogroms, burning at stake etc.

Paradox hasn't had a problem depicting pre-modern atrocities before (killing natives in Eur.Univ., slavery in Victoria, murdering infants in CK...) so I don't think antisemite persecution etc. are the reason Jews are not featured in this game.

 

[Korbah]

The Khazar Jews fell before the time frame of the game.



There is no need to be so dramatic about this. This isn't an issue of PI refusing to believe that Jewish people matter. The fact is that no Jewish states or majority provinces existed in the game's time frame so they don't get much attention. Best case scenario you're looking at a few events in the game.

Actually, little known fact but there was a Jewish Kingdom in Ethiopia at the time (it actually survived as an independent Kingdom until the 17th century), within the vanilla map's scope, but that area, even after the SoI stuff, is severely overlooked and anachronistic. In fact the ruling family of Ethiopia/Aksum were originally Jewish (the Solomonic Dynasty, they traced their "lineage" back to *the* King Solomon), I think some of the Zagwe Kings were jewish too.

 

[Accrsd]

Well here's my question... We can have Jumping Jews of Jerusalem at our festivals but we can't Even SEE a jewish person joining our court?

 

[brxbrx]

There should definitely be Jewish courtiers and Jewish related events (blood libel, pogroms). There should also be a few Jewish provinces, in Ethiopia and in the recently (in game terms) defunct Khazar empire. The kingdom of Semien should be added. Lastly, there should be something that makes it so rare religions persist throughout the game, probably with the random Jewish/Zoroastrian/heretic courtier popping up from time to time.

I don't know if the game can support the idea of minority populations in provinces, but if it could, that would be freaking awesome.

Also, this thread should not be locked by a hand waiving moderator, at least not without posting a link to this supposed thread where Paradox say they won't work on Jews.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Opening a thread about an issue that has just been closed is not a wise thing to do. It is also not wise to comment on that decision on the public forum.

See the forum-rules.

2.{Talk to staff by PM} You will not argue with, comment on or question the actions/authority/ or comments of the Paradox staff (Administrators, Moderators, etc.) in a public forum. Should you wish to do so you are directed to contact the Paradox staff via PM (the private messaging system - see “How to Contact Staff” below).

Also, this thread should not be locked by a hand waiving moderator, at least not without posting a link to this supposed thread where Paradox say they won't work on Jews.

And implying that I am a liar is also not the smartest thing to do on these forums.

See this thread.