No Incan navy?

[Evie HJ]

Except in a calm or in shallow waters where the galley (or more often, galleys) could pummel the ship of the line at will.

Even then, the galley (talking here about an early game galley, with few or no guns - not just any stray ship of the type "galley") would be a much flimsier ship (so much more vulnerable to hits), with a few old guns, and a crew limited in size. Very, very difficult fight.

If we bring in numbers, I would contend that with a significant number advantage canoes could certainly take many early types of light ships, transports and galleys. Carracks probably not because of the sheer size difference - boarding the one boat from the other would be likely too much of a hurdle. (Caravels, ironically enough, would be easier, but that's because caravels are miscategorized as big ships)

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Manoeuvrability and range would protect the sailing ship from any likely number of rafts, unless surprised, restricted or incompetently handled.

 

[Galahorn]

Aztec and Incas actually had ships, well canoës. Some of their canoës were more then 20m long and could carry more then 30 people and bulk goods. Actually, thousands of canoës (around 100 000!) was in use around Tenochtitlan, the aztec capital, but it was for lacustrine trade. Also, sea canoë were used on the coast, and there was contact (mostly long trade) between the different cultures of americas, although it wasn't intensive (mostly luxury and specialized goods). Archeology now shows that aztec had at least one small trading post near inca area but the intensity of trade was very low compare to european trade flows.

So american cultures should have access to transport ships at least, cause they had some, and it was an efficient way of transport (even more efficient then road transport with animals: thats the reason canoë transport continued after the spanish conquest, around the Mexico bassin). Of course those ships couldn't really go for long in high sea, but still....

btw their writing skills wasn't primitive, was just different and their culture was really refined. They just didn't use iron and powder and Incas and Aztec lost cause of intern division, and a kind of warfare that was based more on ceremony then actual mass killing. Also, Aztec didn't understand spanish culture, while Cortes understood them way better and used their beliefs agains't em. Communication and understanding the other culture is a huge advantage, that sadly is often used again't that culture....

 

[Evie HJ]

Manoeuvrability and range would protect the sailing ship from any likely number of rafts, unless surprised, restricted or incompetently handled.

What is it with people constantly bringing rafts up? We're talking war canoes, here, which are quite different from rafts (significantly more maneuverable, to begin with)

(Also, keep in mind my statements was specifically in Skipsy's "Calm sea or shallow waters" scenario he invoked to allow a galley to beat up a ship of the line)

 

[Earl Uhtred]

What is it with people constantly bringing rafts up? We're talking war canoes, here, which are quite different from rafts.

(Also, keep in mind my statements was specifically in Skipsy's "Calm sea or shallow waters" scenario he invoked to allow a galley to beat up a ship of the line)

Whatever. Point still holds unless you want to postulate the Spanish were eating lumps of lead on the crossing and let the enemy close to 6 foot range.

 

[Evie HJ]

Whatever to whatever - the Haida, in the 1800s, captured at least six western ships (some of them, at least, were armed) with war canoes.

Going all the way back to the 1400s and early 1500s, a lightly armed caravel with a few imprecise guns (which is what a caravel would be) would have exactly one significant advantage : speed. Which falls apart in calm winds, or in shallow waters.

Now, in a "even" fight (ie, normal condition with reasonable wind, no shallow water), the caravel will win barring ridiculous swarming. But we weren't discussing even fights ; we all agree than in an "even" fight, a caravel beats a fleet of canoe and a ship of the line crushes early-EU galleys.

What we were discussiong was whether or not canoe would have a chance against caravels or their ilk (low-lying, lightly armed ships) in the same conditions that might allow a few galleys 1400-ish galleys to beat up a 1800-ish Ship of the Line. Which they would have, precisely because those conditions favor row-boats over sailboats.

 

[exenter]

EU3 needs to have different kind of ships for each tech group. Just like infantry and cavalry.

 

[unmerged(3921)]

Since so many of the comments on this thread seem based on preconceptions rather than actual fact, here are the actual FACTS. The Incans did build ocean going ships. They were not canoes, but flat bottomed balsa ships with a single large sail. The first contact between the Spanish and the Incans in fact occurred in late 1526/early 1527 on Pizzaro's second expedition from the western coast of Panama when the ships he used sailed south and bumped into an Incan ship. The Incans used these ships to trade up and down the western coast of South America. Upon meeting the Incan ship, the Spanish seized it capturing a few Incans who were brought back to Panama and forced to teach a few Spanish their language (the Aztec campaign had taught the Spanish the advantages of being able to comprehend a native tongue).

From a game representation standpoint, the most accurate approximation would probably be to allow the Incans to build galleys and nothing else at game start.