No historical events???!!!

[HannibalBarca]

From what I've seen, as long as I didn't do anything too outrageous, the old system was perfectly able to present a good degree of historicalness while at the same time keeping a degree of unpredictability or randomness. I mean, we've all seen HoI games where Japan conquers China or where Germany beats Russia, or Vicky games where Germany doesn't form.

 

[Phax]

Even though I think Rome will work better with the randomness of EU3 than EU3 did itself, I still hope there will be at least some historical feel in the game.

The thing that was (and hopefully isnt all gone) is that Paradox games were unique with the historical feeling. There were and are no other such well made historical games on the market afaik. That was what makes me wanna play EU2 instead of Civilization, and HOI2 instead of Company of Heroes. If i'd like to play a randomized game like that, I got hundreds of titles to choose from.

 

[coreymas]

You are acting as if this is the first time you have heard of the (going away from Historical scripted events) premise.

Johan has been saying (and doing with the release of EU3) this for years now.

His games are not historical simulations -- they are historically themed games that allow the user to start (with EU3 at almost any time) from a historical standpoint and to explore what if scenarios.

Scripting leads to some very weird situations that dont make sense sometimes.

Example -- if the italian homeland gets invaded in Early 42 by a very good US player (who avoids North Africa all together)-- should the Operation Torch event fire and give the North Africa to the US for free?

No. This is a classic example of the player going ahistorical within a plausible alternate strategy.

Corey

 

[HannibalBarca]

You are acting as if this is the first time you have heard of the (going away from Historical scripted events) premise.

Johan has been saying (and doing with the release of EU3) this for years now.

His games are not historical simulations -- they are historically themed games that allow the user to start (with EU3 at almost any time) from a historical standpoint and to explore what if scenarios.

Scripting leads to some very weird situations that dont make sense sometimes.

Example -- if the italian homeland gets invaded in Early 42 by a very good US player (who avoids North Africa all together)-- should the Operation Torch event fire and give the North Africa to the US for free?

No. This is a classic example of the player going ahistorical within a plausible alternate strategy.

Corey

That's what I mean by something "Outrageous." In reality, the logistical problems faced by such an invasion of the Italian mainland without first securing North Africa would be mind-boggling.

 

[unmerged(12990)]

You are acting as if this is the first time you have heard of the (going away from Historical scripted events) premise.

Johan has been saying (and doing with the release of EU3) this for years now.

His games are not historical simulations -- they are historically themed games that allow the user to start (with EU3 at almost any time) from a historical standpoint and to explore what if scenarios.

Scripting leads to some very weird situations that dont make sense sometimes.

Example -- if the italian homeland gets invaded in Early 42 by a very good US player (who avoids North Africa all together)-- should the Operation Torch event fire and give the North Africa to the US for free?

No. This is a classic example of the player going ahistorical within a plausible alternate strategy.

Corey

That's why I think that they could still put in historical events, although less frequently, and then only the ones which have an ahistorical option to choose from. The AI could still have a high percentage chance of choosing the ahistorical route, but at least the events would be in, adding just enough flavor and feel to the game, to make it superb instead of just good.


Here I go, participating in this topic even though I promised myself I won't.

 

[Dysken]

Example -- if the italian homeland gets invaded in Early 42 by a very good US player (who avoids North Africa all together)-- should the Operation Torch event fire and give the North Africa to the US for free?

No. This is a classic example of the player going ahistorical within a plausible alternate strategy.

Corey

IMHO this is a very, very good example why determinism should stay in the games.

 

[coreymas]

Actually one of the things that i really dont like is the historical scripted events.

Example -- The Anchlauss event (Austria 1938)

I actually set my whole World War 2 strategy on that event. I rely upon the extra troops, the extra Air, and the extra IC to fuel my future builds.

Did Hitler have this knowledge in advance? No -- and neither should the player of a historically based simulation.

Second example -- The absorbtion of the Czechs

I actually purposely build 2 extra Motorized divisions in anticipation of the one Armored division you get from the event.....

So my whole strategy is affected by these events wheither i want them or not -- whiether i need them or not.

Corey

 

[HannibalBarca]

Actually one of the things that i really dont like is the historical scripted events.

Example -- The Anchlauss event (Austria 1938)

I actually set my whole World War 2 strategy on that event. I rely upon the extra troops, the extra Air, and the extra IC to fuel my future builds.

Did Hitler have this knowledge in advance? No -- and neither should the player of a historically based simulation.

Second example -- The absorbtion of the Czechs

I actually purposely build 2 extra Motorized divisions in anticipation of the one Armored division you get from the event.....

So my whole strategy is affected by these events wheither i want them or not -- whiether i need them or not.

Corey

So, Hitler didn't know Austria or the Czechs had an Industrial base or a standing army?

 

[Myth]

That's what I mean by something "Outrageous." In reality, the logistical problems faced by such an invasion of the Italian mainland without first securing North Africa would be mind-boggling.

how about this: Germany decided not to take Memel, does Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and Soviet Union accepts and later demands territory from Lithuania, who cedes it all. but...Lithuania still has Memel and thus still survives. problem, no? or what about the terrible end of war events that are complete straight jackets regardless of where the Soviets and Western Allies even meet?

you seem to be willing to overlook terribly poor event implementation as long as its historical, but when EU3 implements its system apparently badly (not having enough experience to judge myself), its the devil?

 

[unmerged(46007)]

Even though I think Rome will work better with the randomness of EU3 than EU3 did itself, I still hope there will be at least some historical feel in the game.

The thing that was (and hopefully isnt all gone) is that Paradox games were unique with the historical feeling. There were and are no other such well made historical games on the market afaik. That was what makes me wanna play EU2 instead of Civilization, and HOI2 instead of Company of Heroes. If i'd like to play a randomized game like that, I got hundreds of titles to choose from.

CK has a great "feel" or atmosphere despite the randomness and few historical events - in my opinion. It's possible, especially with the character gameplay which EU:R will also have.

 

[HannibalBarca]

how about this: Germany decided not to take Memel, does Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and Soviet Union accepts and later demands territory from Lithuania, who cedes it all. but...Lithuania still has Memel and thus still survives. problem, no? or what about the terrible end of war events that are complete straight jackets regardless of where the Soviets and Western Allies even meet?

you seem to be willing to overlook terribly poor event implementation as long as its historical, but when EU3 implements its system apparently badly (not having enough experience to judge myself), its the devil?

There are plenty of mods that fix that though! It's so much harder to modify a dynamic system to fit deterministic events!

 

[durecellrabbit]

While the HoI series does have a lot a ahistorical players. I'm sure there is also a large amount who just want to oversee WW2. Unless I'm playing some completely random minor I'll be playing fairly historically just my side will be winning. The only things the AI might need to prepare for is attacks from unexpected direction but it's not they won't make random attacks on unguarded costal provinces. For me the WW2 happening is the big appeal of the game and that why I got it. I like the idea of determanistic events in EU3 (I don't think they worked very well and will hopefully be greatly improved in EU:R) and wouldn't mind them in Vicky but HoI needs to have WW2 happen correctly for it to appeal to me.

Example -- if the italian homeland gets invaded in Early 42 by a very good US player (who avoids North Africa all together)-- should the Operation Torch event fire and give the North Africa to the US for free?

There are such things as triggers. The alliance/war events are the important ones. I could live with having to make my own opperations as long as the war starts correctly and generally follows the right course.

 

[ComradeOm]

There are plenty of mods that fix that though! It's so much harder to modify a dynamic system to fit deterministic events!

Almost everyone, whether pro- or anti-scripted events, is in agreement that EUIII is easily the most easily moddable of P'dox's releases. There must be dozens of EUIII mods at this stage - many of which add or edit events.

 

[Dysken]

Almost everyone, whether pro- or anti-scripted events, is in agreement that EUIII is easily the most easily moddable of P'dox's releases. There must be dozens of EUIII mods at this stage - many of which add or edit events.

True but the events you can add to EU3 are not as direct as EU2s. There is very little leeway in country to country events.

 

[Myth]

There are plenty of mods that fix that though! It's so much harder to modify a dynamic system to fit deterministic events!

I think having a 200 kb text file that's not done yet just for the postwar partition of europe would be pretty difficult to accomplish...(as iirc that's what's wobbler's events were at last I remembered him talking about them)

you want me to mod? I want you to mod

 

[coreymas]

So, Hitler didn't know Austria or the Czechs had an Industrial base or a standing army?

No what i am saying is that he did not know that the capitulation would actually have worked the way it did in real life. The general population of Austria might have actually resisted.

Heck Austria was really invaded (before the ink was dry on the Anchlauss papers) .....

What i am saying is that it makes for an incredibly scripted game.... Do i think that there should be an option to allow for Historical scripts to be implemented yes but it should be up to the player to decide that... not hard coded into the game without any easy option to turn it off.

Corey

 

[HannibalBarca]

Almost everyone, whether pro- or anti-scripted events, is in agreement that EUIII is easily the most easily moddable of P'dox's releases. There must be dozens of EUIII mods at this stage - many of which add or edit events.

It's very hard to build EU2 style event chains in the EU3 engine, while back in the EU2 engine, you could modify or rid yourself of Historical events in the blink of an eye and a click of the mouse.

 

[HannibalBarca]

No what i am saying is that he did not know that the bnt47capitulation would actually have worked the way it did in real life. The general population of Austria might have actually resisted.

Heck Austria was really invaded (before the ink was dry on the Anchlauss papers) .....

What i am saying is that it makes for an incredibly scripted game.... Do i think that there should be an option to allow for Historical scripts to be implemented yes u9jbut it should be up to the player to decide that... not hard coded into the game without any easy option to turn it off.

Corey

Here's a hint:Right click on the German event files in Program Files/Paradox Interactive/Hearts of Iron 2/db/events, click copy, paste it onto your desktop, and then delete the original. No events. Simple as that.

 

[ComradeOm]

It's very hard to build EU2 style event chains in the EU3 engine, while back in the EU2 engine, you could modify or rid yourself of Historical events in the blink of an eye and a click of the mouse.

ZmajOgnjeniVuk has successfully ported many (over five hundred) events from AGCEEP to EUIII. They're included in MM Gold.

 

[coreymas]

There are such things as triggers. The alliance/war events are the important ones. I could live with having to make my own opperations as long as the war starts correctly and generally follows the right course.

And what would the right course be? That is the whole point to this game -- to see if you can do things differently than really happened in WW2. Are you saying that i have to wait until late 1944 to get some massive ORG boost to my Soviet Armies when i am at Hitlers doorstep in Summer 43? I cant research a doctrine early so that i can make my troops better in 43 instead of 44?

I think a simple toggle switch option in the Options menu that allows an alternate set of scripted events to be available (which you would put in a special directory) would solve this issue. Ahistorical people can go without them and historical ones can add thier own tailored to their tastes.

Corey