No Deus Vult

[EldarPanic]

Alright guys, I've been arguing against the removal of Deus Vult in this thread, but... not buying the game because of it? I think that's a little but excessive. Or are you saying you're playing the game for it's political stance, rather than because, y'know, it's fun?

The reason why people are not going to buy is simple, they don't want to support a company that caters to a tiny almost nonexistent minority of people that dont care about history and that most likely are not even gonna bother with the game in the first place.

 

[Nameless_Ensign]

Alright guys, I've been arguing against the removal of Deus Vult in this thread, but... not buying the game because of it? I think that's a little but excessive. Or are you saying you're playing the game for it's political stance, rather than because, y'know, it's fun?

If they bow to social pressure now on such a minor issue, who knows what they'll bow to next? It's a bad example.

Though I'd be fine with a compromise, instead of a latin phrase most people would have to google why not just say "God wills it!"

 

[brobman22]

It's not about Deus Vult in particular but what it's removal represents.

CK2 without Deus Vult is like HOI without Nazi's or Soviets, Stellaris but you have no goal or driver, EU4 but every nation is utterly equal and bland with no flavour and Victoria but the Colonialism is censored.

It's an integral part of the Era, the motivation behind basically everything for several hundred years. If you can strip that away because of a few crazies on the internet, what else will be removed or go missing?

Deus Vult is popularly associated with one Crusade. Fair enough it was the first one but that's it. It sure as hell wasn't the driving force behind everything over 700 years of history.

 

[Carmichael]

Do I think its mere appeasement to some outlet that was fishing for an answer they can headline somewhere? Absolutely.

But you people act like DEUS VULT was written all over CK II and that they are removing an integral part of the game but thats not true, its not even remotely close. It didnt make any difference in CKII and it wont make one now.

The "muh historical accuracy" argument is laughable at best in a game with much worse inaccuracies but apparently this is the hill some of you have decided to die on. (I sense ulterior motives )

That being said I respect yalls decision to pass on the game. The rest of us can move on and complain about more productive things like mechanic X or balance change Y.

The problem is not so much the removal of Deus Vult against the fact that they censor things. If Deus Vult today is removed because of political sensibilities, what else will be removed tomorrow? Will they remove marrying off your daughter because feminist say it's no different from slave trading and oppress women by treating them as currencies? Will they remove the term Caliphate because ISIS is claiming to be one? This is opening a Pandora Box.

 

[Dsingis]

Oh wow, look at Paradox, so progressive by censoring history! Really woke! I'm proud of you! Hope we keep "Allahu Akbar" though, you don't want to be islamophobes, don't you?

 

[J.B.]

Apparently CK3 won't have any references to deus vult in the game, and it seems that they will also take a different approach to anything that could be considered 'politically sensitive' in the game. I understand why they're doing this and all, yet will they be doing such at the sacrifice of historical accuracy? I personally think that by removing things such as references to deus vult and other potentially politically sensitive content, they are going down a path that has the potential to go poorly. I think that having things such as deus vult could be fine, so long as it's clear what context it is. If they make it clear that it is in the context of a historical setting, then I think it's fine.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/20...is-happening-heres-ten-things-we-know-so-far/

In my opinion, if the phrase was widely utilized within the context of Crusades, then it should probably be retained. History could be beautiful, indifferent, undignified, ugly, or even truly monstrous, yet the truth is ultimately important.

What I think is that Paradox Interactive was using the phrase in a historical context quite well before it showed up in the controversial arena of recent to current politics it had emerged within. Paradox may have even made reference to "Deus vult" in the first Crusader Kings. They have quite a few years on the other party using it, and in my opinion, the developers simply could have stated that they intended grandfather it for the game series, as in a grandfather clause, regardless of current politics, in case anybody from the public sphere, most likely within the context of journalism, brings it up as a matter of concern.

I do not claim to fully understand why this archaic phrase is considered controversial today, or perhaps single individual who had played a large hand in promoting its more recent usage, yet I think the phrase "Deus vult" is at least mostly regarded as synonymous with the crusader lifestyle, of parts of the times these games depict. Students of the Crusaders and more broadly, European and Middle Eastern Medieval history are most likely going to be acquainted with those words, self-contained within historic contexts. When reading a book about the Crusades, the phrase sometimes crops up in such a text, established as a battle or rallying cry for the very crusaders that had partaken those historical events. I would not be offended if Arabic equivalents to the phrase, coming from an Islamic perspective, could also be utilized in this game alongside it.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

I don’t think this is a great decision but it’s also an unimportant one, it will make zero difference to how fun the game is.

Just for once, can we not be ‘that’ gaming community? Move past it.

 

[Diesel97]

Especially funny, considering that at the same time eugenics get expanded.

 

[Booo]

Deus vult seems to have entered something like a euphemism treadmill, since the term's used in negative contexts it gets more offensive over time. Numerous terms and concepts have gone through the same thing before it. You can try to disassociate it with the negative uses, which might be difficult. You can stop using it, but whatever replaces it might undergo the same thing.

This account was written 25 years after the fact. Not exactly primary. It even says that right at the top. I'm not saying Deus Vult wasn't said but don't lie.

It would be a primary source if you're looking for the language used about the crusades during their own time periods. 1110 was dozens of years before the second crusade, so it would have entered use by then.

 

[Se Endecyning]

They're not removing crusades, they're removing the words "deus" and "vult" in that order because it's become a fascist rallying cry in recent years.

It's honestly possible that some developers themselves were like, "Ya know, I'm not kosher with using this term now. I'll axe it." Artists CAN have their own views on a matter unrelated to "appeasement".

Boo friggin' hoo.

 

[Palfouri]

Why are people getting so upset over this? It's not like Paradox are rewriting history, the game will obviously still feature crusades (it's in the name) and by extension the idea of deus vult. It's just the phrase that has become a symbol of fascism over the last few years. The fact that so many fans on here are getting so upset over this is worrying, because this means they either are ignorant to the connotation the phrase has gotten (but why would you get so emotional then?) or actual fascist. Or edgelords, which is naturally a possibility here.

I for one would have been at least a little weirded out had they prominently used the phrase in game. Remember Christchurch.

So you can still carry out all the actions that the phrase connotates, and carry out actions in-game even further beyond the pale of modern morality than that, but it's a-ok as long as you don't use the keywords that makes internet busybodies upset?

I don't give a shit about "deus vulting all over the place" but it's fucking laughable that, as other people have said, a game whose mechanics essentially allow you to commit ethnic cleansing because provinces can apparently only hold one culture or religion at a time would choose something like this to moralize on. And as much as I hate to bring it up, it's even more ridiculous when the same game will as far as I can tell contain, unaltered, a phrase that far, far, more modern people have heard before being cut down senselessly than "Deus Vult".

 

[MrNewVegas]

@Hiiri Exactly, I didn't even know it was a thing and now suddenly we're Neo-Fascist for using a term that's been a meme for years (Anyone remembers the Deus Vult during the Dev Clashes?)

Or during the lan in the old castle when the Manchu player was threatening to pillage his way through the known world.

 

[MrMcQue]

Why are people getting so upset over this? It's not like Paradox are rewriting history, the game will obviously still feature crusades (it's in the name) and by extension the idea of deus vult. It's just the phrase that has become a symbol of fascism over the last few years. The fact that so many fans on here are getting so upset over this is worrying, because this means they either are ignorant to the connotation the phrase has gotten (but why would you get so emotional then?) or actual fascists. Or edgelords, which is naturally a possibility.

I for one would have been at least a little weirded out had they prominently used the phrase in game. Remember Christchurch.

Again, what does Deus Vult have originally to do with"fascists"? You mean kkk guys who were anti-catholic? You mean neonazi-edgelords who claim that Christianity has destroyed 'muh pagan culture'? What are you on about? Catholicism has never been about race, it is about faith only and just because some 4chan-americans come and have to ruin everything shouldn't mean that we have to rewrite our history to fit someone who never plays the game anyway.

 

[Darrenb209]

Deus Vult is popularly associated with one Crusade. Fair enough it was the first one but that's it. It sure as hell wasn't the driving force behind everything over 700 years of history.

First, I never said 700 years, I said several hundred.

Second, the whole concept of "Deus Vult/Gods Will" defined the entirety of the crusading era and strongly affected the aftermath, even if the specific words were most tied to the first.

That you deny this suggests that you are literally nitpicking and looking for the specific words instead of the meaning they represent.

 

[Nutsolini]

So you're telling me "Deus Vult", a word related to Crusading which is literally in the name of the Game by the way, is too sensitive for you people but killing toddlers in their sleep by stabbing them in the chest, throwing your wife off the balcony to her certain death, torching entire villages, plagues killing a third of an entire continent, sacrificing people to Odin or Satan, possessing people with Demons and impregnating your own daughter are fine?

Paradox, you honestly stun me with your idiocy and hypocrisy sometimes. I'm not gonna buy this game out of principle now unless you seriously rethink your options. It's not JUST about 'Deus Vult' as such, but it's about you censoring History, and being fine with doing so, no second doubts or anything. Why feature Crusades at all then? Why have CRUSADER be a literal part of the Name of this game? Will Jihads be excluded and censored too?

Learn your history, Paradox (and all the people who apparently support this censorship) and learn to acknowledge that History was a gigantic fucking mess, and that you can not and should not compare the fucking Dark Ages to our modern values and views. That just doesn't work. You can't make a game about History but censor everything that you find insensitive. CK2 didn't, people love it to this day because of that.

 

[Nameless_Ensign]

Paradox may have even made reference to "Deus vult" in the first Crusader Kings.

It's literally the name of the only expansion in the first game.

 

[Fallofthepurple]

The problem is not so much the removal of Deus Vult against the fact that they censor things. If Deus Vult today is removed because of political sensibilities, what else will be removed tomorrow? Will they remove marrying off your daughter because feminist say it's no different from slave trading and oppress women by treating them as currencies? Will they remove the term Caliphate because ISIS is claiming to be one? This is opening a Pandora Box.

You are still making it out like they are removing some sort of game mechanic which they are not. CK is gonna be CK with or without the words (which is why I think removing it is nonsense).

Its not opening a Pandora Box because most people rightfully dont give a shit about shitty deus vult memes, if they started removing Mechanic 123 it would obviously cause a much bigger wave, and rightfully so.

 

[Lahvac]

Oh wow, look at Paradox, so progressive by censoring history! Really woke! I'm proud of you! Hope we keep "Allahu Akbar" though, you don't want to be islamophobes, don't you?

You don't understand. Unlike Deus Vult, Allahu Akbar is not associated with hatred or violent political movements.

 

[old scum]

I'm can't make up my mind about what I'll miss less, the phrase itself, or people insisting that not including it in a computer game is "rewriting history"

 

[Dsingis]

You don't understand. Unlike Deus Vult, Allahu Akbar is not associated with hatred or violent political movements.

Right, how could I forget!