No Deus Vult

No Deus Vult

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Slvrbuu

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You're literally getting offended at a game not including an irrelevant phrase.
It's actually not an irrelevant phrase. It is relevant because they base the game in the era of the crusades. If it upsets people because of the reference to the Crusades, or because people today are trying to acclaim their legitimacy, then perhaps Crusader Kings 3 shouldn't be, and they should shift over to a new title that is not so heavily influenced by the Crusades. It would be like making a game about revolutionary France and not including the phrase 'Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité'. That was literally the driving force of the revolution. Liberty, Equality, Unity/Fraternity. Deus Vult drove the crusaders, it allowed them to commit horrible crimes in the name of god. Selfishly, or selflessly, it mattered not, God Willed it.
 

Snowflake0000145

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Alright. Let's explore that logic.

HOI4 but the phrases Nazi, Communist, Concentration Camp, Holocaust, Stalin, Hitler, Genocide, Molotov-Ribbentrop, Soviet, Soviet Union and Fascist are not included.

EU4 but the phrases Slave, Empire, Colonialism, Massacre, War and Superiority are not included.

Victoria 2 but the phrases Colonialism, Violence, Genocide, Massacres, Slavery, War, Death, Ruin, Destruction, Trade, Great War and so on are not included.

Do you get the point or do I need to spell it out further? Not including a major defining phrase and motivation for the era is very, very much rewriting history.
My point exactly
 

Surimi

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CK II has Allahu Akbar in Haji events

Well spotted.

But do you think anything would be particularly lost by replacing that phrase? If it simply said "God is the greatest", which is the English translation, would that fundamentally change the intent or distort the perception of history?
 

Bon Roi Ménélas

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I must add that I dislike when Deus Vult is spouted as a meme by (probably atheist or protestant) idiots. That is because I am Catholic and I don't like seeing our words or acts be misused or misunderstood but I hate even more when socialists or liberals try to erase our faith.

I also find the imagery of baby murder with snake more shocking than any kind of words.
But it's still just words and a video game. If people want to care about something they should care about real events and not create fake problems because their lives are too easy and cushioned.
(also, Deus lo Vult is better)
 

treb

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Although i'm against banning deus vult we can't ignore the fact that it has become a meme nazis use

if nazis speak in english should we stop speaking english?

if nazis speak eat food should we stop eating food?

If nazis breath should we stop breathing?

If you answer is no to any of these then you shouldn't stop saying something just because bad people say it too.
 

5687VB

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I think it is hilarious that in the article in https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/20...is-happening-heres-ten-things-we-know-so-far/ in the top it says "And you can make them cannibals, with the church’s blessing" and in the following it talking about no Deus Vault. I personally think that this is a form of hidden prejudice. Everybody is worry with offending, but no one care if you can do things in the game that are immensely offensive to Christianity, a corner stone of the western world like it or not. I think that, as a game, there is no problem with that (like making a satanist pope and etc), what make me angry is the differential treatment. When dealing with certain cultures and denominations everything is a joke, while with others is something wrong and terrible.
 

Guaire123456789

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Alright. Let's explore that logic.

HOI4 but the phrases Nazi, Communist, Concentration Camp, Holocaust, Stalin, Hitler, Genocide, Molotov-Ribbentrop, Soviet, Soviet Union and Fascist are not included.
HoI already doesnt mention the holocaust or any other genocide. And fascist isnt a phrase, is a word
 

GuyIncognito26

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It's actually not an irrelevant phrase. It is relevant because they base the game in the era of the crusades. If it upsets people because of the reference to the Crusades, or because people today are trying to acclaim their legitimacy, then perhaps Crusader Kings 3 shouldn't be, and they should shift over to a new title that is not so heavily influenced by the Crusades. It would be like making a game about revolutionary France and not including the phrase 'Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité'. That was literally the driving force of the revolution. Liberty, Equality, Unity/Fraternity. Deus Vult drove the crusaders, it allowed them to commit horrible crimes in the name of god. Selfishly, or selflessly, it mattered not, God Willed it.

If the alt-right cesspools today were saying "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite" and posting Paradox memes based on it, they probably would remove it.

It's not about what the term meant in history, it's about what it means right now, today.

Paradox plainly (as so many commentators have noted) has no problem depicting historical unpleasantness. This has nothing to do with that, and everything to do with them not wanting to keep harping on an extremely poisonous association that they had foisted on them and their products.

Like I said, if the Klan adopted any corporate slogan, that slogan would change in short order.

People don't want their products and their companies associated with Nazis and reactionaries. If people have a problem with that, talk to the Nazis and reactionaries and get them to stop trying to ruin everything.
 

Alex George

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The idea that Deus vult has been (shock, horror) removed kind of implies it was going to be in the game to begin with.

It's possible to have a complex discussion on the crusades, to discuss any aspect of the Crusades, or even to write about the historical experience of life during the crusades without mentioning the phrase Deus vult.

What's interesting to me is that a lot of people in twitch chat started talking about the takbir (the phrase Allahu akbar), which is funny, because the takbir, despite being an extremely common Arabic expression and an integral statement of Islamic faith, does not appear anywhere in the localisation for CK2. Was it removed! Is this the dreaded censorship? Is the work of the dreaded essjaydubulyoos and their extremely real plot to destroy video games?

To be honest, whoever wrote the localisation for CK2 probably did avoid that phrase on purpose (or self-censorship, as us cool free speech advocates call it when a commercial product makes a creative decision we disagree with) was partly motivated by the desire to avoid a phrase which had become controversial in Western countries due to its association with jihadism. That is a thing you're allowed to do. We just didn't notice because it was 2014 and noone cared about ethics in game journalism.

Now, if you're lucky enough not to know what this whole thing is about, if you thought Deus vult was just a historical phrase which may have apeared in Pope Urban's speech calling for the first crusade (but probably didn't, because there are five different versions of that speech), then well done. You are a normal person who doesn't hang out in the bad part of youtube or /pol/. You can still use the phrase in context if you like, and it does not make you a racist. However, you should be aware that there are people out there who are using it with a somewhat different implication, and I don't know about you but I don't want those people in the same gaming community as me.

Honestly there is a huge difference between the way Allahu akbar is used in modern times, by actual terrorists and islamic warriors, compared to same memetic autistic teens that just shout Deus Vult, really. I think they should change the game title to Incestuous Kings because incest is ok, but Deus Vult while being used by autistic teens is a complete spawn of the devil and should be eradicated through complex intrigue. Really, I honestly think Allahu Akbar should be included in the game aswell but that is maybe a more sensitive problem, still you can not compare those 2 terms. I think Paradox Should remove religions completely from their games. Also really including sexual violence while removing Deus Vult ? This is completely shit. Also this brings the question, what else will be removed ? Religious Conversion and penalties ? Holy Wars ? The damn Crusades ? Inquisition, that is already absent from CK2 except form you court chaplain randomly finding apostates ?

that there are people out there who are using it with a somewhat different implication

Edgy teens ? Yes, but edgy teens use frogs as their symbol, should frogs be banned ? FFS it is not like there is a global fight against christian terrorism, such vile terrorism represented by this term. This is a huge dissapointment, and i can say that for now CK3 looks like a bad plot made by a weak claimant to kill the emperor.
 

Snowflake0000145

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HoI already doesnt mention the holocaust or any other genocide. And fascist isntt a phrase, is a word
So I can become a cannibal in ck3 but saying ‘deus vult’ is too much?
The reason I’ve played ck2 to death is because I loved the variety I could re establish the Roman Empire, seduce the pope and join a death cult in the same game without any of it getting stale
 

Guaire123456789

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So I can become a cannibal in ck3 but saying ‘deus vult’ is too much?
The reason I’ve played ck2 to death is because I loved the variety I could re establish the Roman Empire, seduce the pope and join a death cult in the same game without any of it getting stale
I never said that, I said that it is stupid to complain about an irrelevant change
 

Darrenb209

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HoI already doesnt mention the holocaust or any other genocide. And fascist isnt a phrase, is a word

Stop nitpicking and get the fucking point. Stripping out the major context for a historical situation is rewriting history. Especially when you do it in the form of a semi-historical piece of media, as people hold the expectation that any historical deviances will be for the sake of fun or game balance, not playing politics.
 

DrEmettBrown

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If the alt-right cesspools today were saying "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite" and posting Paradox memes based on it, they probably would remove it.

It's not about what the term meant in history, it's about what it means right now, today.

Paradox plainly (as so many commentators have noted) has no problem depicting historical unpleasantness. This has nothing to do with that, and everything to do with them not wanting to keep harping on an extremely poisonous association that they had foisted on them and their products.

Like I said, if the Klan adopted any corporate slogan, that slogan would change in short order.

People don't want their products and their companies associated with Nazis and reactionaries. If people have a problem with that, talk to the Nazis and reactionaries and get them to stop trying to ruin everything.
Letting non-existent internet nazis dictate the meaning of words if beyond idiotic. This is giving them undue power, what if they start talking about equality and justice? Are you going to claim the nazis have conquered such topics and that we need to stop bringing them up?
 

Surimi

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If it upsets people because of the reference to the Crusades

People have made it very clear that the problem is the appropriation of Deus vult as a neo-Nazi slogan in the present day.

Noone is upset that the game depicts the crusades, although I think it's valid to have concerns about how the game will depict the crusades.

The fact that people seem to think the phrase Deus vult is an integral part of the crusades does not speak very well of the ability of video games to teach or reflect authentic history. Again, it is quite likely that Pope Urban (or the crowd he was addressing) never even said it, and it was just made up by commentators.
 

MrMcQue

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Antifa has never killed anyone, meanwhile white supremacist kill more people that any other kind of supremacist in the US

Ah, the US at it again. I'm for example NOT American and but from a country in which many people died because of the people antifa admires. Sorry to brake it to you but the world doesn't begin in california and end in florida but there are also continents called Europe, Africa or Asia were many people have suffered under regimes Americans never witnessed.
 

Kljunas

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idk if I'm surprised or not that this is already the biggest thread by far. Gamers really are something else.
 

Birdos

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This thread just shows how lost people are in this mix of 1984 & Brave new World internet society we've created...

Guys! You don't have to go always directly from 0 to 100. Please take some time to reflect of things happening before you give in the urge to react and if possible, try to approach it with a bit of common sense.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I don't mean the OP but the 13 pages of crossfire, bland statements and fallacies following it.
 
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Guaire123456789

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Stop nitpicking and get the fucking point. Stripping out the major context for a historical situation is rewriting history. Especially when you do it in the form of a semi-historical piece of media, as people hold the expectation that any historical deviances will be for the sake of fun or game balance, not playing politics.
I am not nitpicking, HoI never mentioned the holocaust or any other major genocide and no one fucking cared.
 

Anna_Gein

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This thread is an awful read.
It's an understandable move in that Paradox has gotten bad rep due to the popularity of Deus Vult (but more so, HOI) being popular with some pretty questionable far-right crowd linked to terroritst incidents - with that background, either way would be been controversial to some degree.
I probably would have not omitted it for purposes of accuracy, but it's debatable given the context - and ultimately it's a debate about a piece or two of flavour text in a bloody computer game, not a majorly creative interpretation of history. The overblown outrage and raving about "the SJWs" looks easily worse.
It is awful indeed.

And seeing it as the biggest thread in reaction to CK 3 announcement, even bigger than the official sticky thread, makes me feel like this is a unfortunate but necessary decision. It definitively validates Paradox's decision as far as I am concerned.

I am certain nobody in Paradox is happy to be forced into this kind of Political&PR decisions.

I love braincells of west who shill how Crussades were so bad yet defend the religion of peace that Islam is, making always excuses for Jihad left and right.

I rather have this kind of toxic/right wing crowd away from the community and the gaming industry as a whole.

idk if I'm surprised or not that this is already the biggest thread by far. Gamers really are something else.

"Historical gamers"

This thread reminds me why I became increasingly uncomfortable with the excessive Byzance-philia in EU forums. Funnily enough my interest in Byzantine History is why I pursued a grade in History irl lmao.
 
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