No DD today + 1.33 Open Beta feedback update

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Pavía

Content Design Coordinator PDX Tinto
Paradox Staff
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Jan 3, 2006
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Greetings! As we're busy going through all the feedback we're receiving from you in the 1.33 Open Beta, and making further fixes and improvements from all the issues reported, we don't really have any new content to show today. However, I'll go this evening through some of the threads where you've posted this feedback, and try to answer as much comments as possible, to give you updated and more detailed info about how we're doing with them.

If you want to post here more feedback, you're welcome, although I'll ask you to avoid reposting/repeating about some of the more shared issues (AI fort spamming, CB balancing, etc.), as I'll already answer to those in the other threads. ;)

Adding answers to 1.33 Open Beta feedback:


 
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I already made a post about it on the forum but since you are here for feedback ill put it here too. It seems that when favors and trust was reworked for Leviathan that is broke the trust system for subjects.

I have noticed that subjects' trust increases to 50 if it is below that value and then doesn't increase beyond it. Previously the trust slowly ticked towards 100 to represent a vassal trusting the overlord over time. Now because regular nations tend towards 50, I think subjects do as well.
We'll take a look about this issue. ;)
Thanks! I think it hasn't been discussed yet, but there's a problem with hordes and Ming. In the new patch, the AI builds a lot of forts (which is great and gives a challenge to the game), but this makes it very hard for AI hordes to succeed against a crumbling Ming in the middle of their disaster. This is why I think giving Ming negative fort defense modifiers in their disaster (both Ming Crisis and Unguarded Nomadic Frontier), or even tie it to low mandate malus, could help hordes to claim the Mandate. Speaking of which, I would also suggest giving special priority (ai factor) to AI hordes to invade Shun the second they spawn: right now, they will only choose to intervene in the event if they have a set of conditions met, but I think they should invade unless Manchu is bankrupt. This way, you "force" Manchu to attack Shun right when they form, which is the moment they are the weakest. Another thing that prevents Qing from forming is that Manchu does not have access to the Unify China CB (if you disable Mandate of Heaven DLC you have access to it). Maybe enabling it could help Manchu to form Qing in more games.
Finally, I have a question regarding Chinese Kingdoms. Are you planning on adding a decision to Chinese Kingdoms to restore the Mandate of Heaven if it has been dismantled? There exists already a decision to do so in the game, but it is currently disabled. Thanks again!
We're working on addressing AI fort spamming issue. We're also taking a further look on buffing Manchu a bit to improve its chances of creating Qing, although it's not an easy fix, TBH.
Please could you make it possible to turn trade companies into colonial nations? (And possibly vice versa). This happened in the game’s timeframe when the Dutch East India company was nationalised, as well as the formation of British Raj.

The ability could enable at Diplo Tech 23
We're not planning on making any changes regarding this, and it doesn't look to be very popular, TBH.

Suggestion for Manchu-Korea tributary event
Thanks, we'll take a look on it.
@Pavía

- Can no longer annihilate powerful AI enemies through multiple peace deals with all of your allies as they'll unconditionally surrender if on -100% war score and won't accept any other peace offers until the war leader has peaced out. Also, when forts are reverted back to owner after a peace treaty their garrisons are refilled.

Could ye consider tweaking this please so that unconditional surrender only occurs when the war leader has allies in the war?
It's really annoying being hit with war exhaustion now when I couldn't even use this 'exploit'.
As to your very first point, this is intended and using allied nations to decimate a large enemy like that was considered an exploit. War exhaustion is supposed to be something that you experience and manage throughout the game. Its meant to be an impediment and hindrance, alike corruption, and your annoyance is a testament to their change working as intended.
This.
Could you look at innovative, maritime and aristocratic ideas, which have been nerfed by the leader upkeep change?
Maritime Ideas will actually receive some boost in the final 1.33 patch. Rebalancing idea groups is something we've been working on in the past months.
Would it be possible to collect together the replies you give today into a single thread and sticky it somewhere for ease of reading? We could even call that the DD for today.
Already done. ;)
Could you revert the cb change? Especially for things like subject independence wars it makes some hard start runs significantly harder.
As answered in other post: "We've made some changes to the CB balance. Right now, you have to use the primary goal set for each CB first as a peace request (let's say, Independence). Then, you can use the remaining Warscore up to 100% for other peace requests (provinces, etc.)."
not exactly beta related but an idea poped in "our" mind, how about making crimea a tributary for the ottomans. would block one otoman blob path for some time.
This is something we already have in our minds to try to balance a bit more the Ottoblob in the next patch. ;)
No problem! Any word on the small Emperor IA issue? (Where Hesse and others get the HRE but then can't pass any reforms due to them being too small)
At the moment this is WAD, although we're open to balance it if it's seen as a problem widely in the community.
No worries, thank you for your hard work!

I would like to ask about the centers of refomation being tied to the center of a religious group in common/religion/00_religion.txt. Would it be possible to remove this restriction or at least give us the modders a way around it? For example, there is currently no way to spawn Christian centers of reformation anywhere outside of Europe. Removing this restriction would open up many possibilities for mods. Thank you!
Maybe, I'm adding this suggestions to the list of possible modding changes for the next patch. ;)
Thank you @Pavía for your update. One thing that I'm still curious about is the subject interaction "Start War in Colony" bug which was already reported (bug report) since December last year but has not yet been reviewed or had any response from the dev team, and still happened in 1.33 beta. Actually, it has been asked since May 2021 that the colony cannot start the war with other colonies no matter what type of colony they are.

Is this WAD? Otherwise, it is very conflicting with the description of Start War in Colony that explained "Makes your Colonial nation start a war against another colonial nation or natives". Not sure why this issue hadn't been touched upon since the interaction "colony declare independence war" had already been solved in 1.33 beta.

I also attach the picture here that shows my Spanish La Plata (self-governing type) cannot declare war on Portuguese Brazil (crown colony) with a confusing text "Self-governing colony can't fight their own wars".

View attachment 803660
We'll take a look over this issue. ;)
 
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On the topic of idea groups, one of the pulse events for Innovative is a stab hit due to "spreading of humanist ideas". Maybe it would be a better idea to move this event over to Humanism.

It seems unfair that a much stronger idea group like Humanism has no stab hit event, while a weaker group like Innovative gets the extra insult to injury of a stab hit, in which the text even attributes to humanism.
Not a bad suggestions, will take a look on it for 1.34.
I hope something has been done to make Innovative and Espionage more attractive. Although at the moment I'm not sure what could persuade me to choose them.

More powerful policies for Innovative would be nice. The theme of creativity resulting in powerful synergies with all of your other idea groups would be a very interesting twist to the usual method of measuring an idea group by just its ideas.
We've made a few changes for Espionage ideas, too... Although the idea group still looks a bit lackluster, TBH.

Still remembering the old times when picking Innovative as first Ideas group was a no-brainer. Will also take a look on balancing it a bit for 1.34, as said before.
I was wondering, since you guys are tweaking the AI a bit, could you guys maybe tweak where the AI prioritises colonisation? I mostly see Portugal taking Mexico the Caribbean, Peru and La Plata, while Spain is often the one who takes Brazil. Perhaps if you could make the AI prioritise more based off of the mission trees, if you don't want to just railroad them for colonising certain regions.

Also, since you are tweaking the placement of the PU Portugal mission in the Spanish tree, could perhaps also please have a look at these suggestions:


And finally, are you guys planning on implementing a way to merge colonial nations in the same region, say after integrating/inheriting a PU? Perhaps the PU subject's CNs could revert to the overlord first, like in annexation and then automatically revert to the CN subject as usual. Alternatively this could be by event? But I think the formed is better if the CN is spilling into another region and maybe even easier to implement.

P.S. it would also be nice if CNs would prioritise colonisation in their own regions, you know, clean borders and all
There is a lot of things that could be improved regarding Colonial gameplay, yes, including AI, and a lot of QoL. We'd like to rework it at some point, although it's up to be decided when we'd have enough development time for it.
Hi there.

Do you plan to decrease (or is some occasions remove) penalty to professionalism after recruitment of mercenary unit ? As I was playing as Hungary yesterday and I realised that black army (as a mercenary unit) is in reality described as one of the first professional/permanent armies in Europe (at its peak around 20 000 men). And first units of permanent army of Habsburg empire (after end of 30 years war) were mercenary units, which were kept in service even after war ended. Mercenary units (not all of them of course) were definitively more disciplined (if payed well enough) and skilled than any contemporary levies and therefore it is weird to see recruiting one reduce professionalism.

Maybe at least reduce "damage" to professionalism after recruiting mercenary unit to 1-2 depending on size of unit ?
Not at this moment. Maybe you could open a thread in the Suggestions subforum, as it's an interesting topic to be discussed by the community.
@Noble Steel @Pavía
Did either of ye read my post properly? I was referring to wars that one fights without calling in any allies.
Immediately being hit with call for peace on 100% ing them is BS.
I still don't think it's an issue, being honest, but I will share the issue with other devs, to take a look upon it.
 
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You're absolutely right El Cid, so I'll look at closing that loophole too for 1.34. Why would the enemy want the war to be prolonged just to suit you? :)
 
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I would be on board with that change only if how spy networks and/or spy defense work is changed around to a monetary cost instead of tying up a diplomat. Otherwise good luck defending against dozens of AI which use their special for the player diplomat to constantly spy on you from the other side of the world just because they are threatened/hostile with 2-3 diplomats of your own.
The AI's extra diplomat is not really "for the player", although I believe that was originally claimed by a dev on the forum a long time ago. It is really (at least nowadays) reserved for non-continuous actions, with no regard for who's AI or human.
For example, if a human would have 3 diplomats, the AI will have 4, of which it will try to use 3 for continuous actions such as "improve relations" and "build spy network", but reserve the fourth one for requesting alliances, declaring wars, etc.
 
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Let me preface this by saying that I’m very positive to almost all the changes in this patch, but since they are clear/outright improvements I don’t feel the need to debate them much.

However, there’s one change that I feel has a significant negative impact on the game. That change is the cannon backrow change where they retreat at zero morale.


Some starting points to work from:
Cannons now lose morale at the same rate as infantry, this means that the cannon backline typically will retreat around the same time as the infantry in front. This means that they suffer minimal (in my tests, literally zero for both sides) casualties.

Cannons are now (if they weren’t already) incredibly strong, engaging with only infantry and no artillery support is after certain tech levels simply throwing manpower and warscore away.

The conclusion to the above becomes that your fighting stacks should consist of equal numbers of infantry and artillery (since if they consist of more infantry, the last infantry regiments end up fighting without artillery, being essentially fodder/wasted manpower)


Onto the first issue:
Now, since your infantry receives the brunt of the casualties (due to the artillery being ready to retreat/already retreating once the infantry breaks), and you want to maintain the ‘magical’ 50/50 ratio, you’ll want infantry to reinforce your stack every time you consolidate an army. For any efficient warfare, especially offensively (due to slower reinforce speed), you likely want to consolidate after almost every fight. This means that you’ll want some pure infantry stacks ‘standing by’ (not engaging, as you risk them suffering heavy casualties for little gain) and after every consolidation reorganize your ‘fighting’ stacks to once again be 50/50 inf and artillery. This is a huge problem, having to reorganize every fighting stack to 50/50 after battle feels incredibly clunky/like a huge chore even in single player with pauses. In multiplayer I imagine it’ll be outright dreadful.


Second issue:
This issue is mainly relevant for multiplayer, but I think it’s fair to at least mention regardless. Since all your stacks anywhere near the frontline (your reinforcing infantry stacks can be quite far back, as they merely need to be present after the battle) are 50/50 inf and artillery that (with the forcelimit general change) likely has a general you no longer have any ‘vulnerable’ stacks. The most interesting part of multiplayer warfare is to in some try way force a bad fight for your opponents, typically this is accomplished by catching out stacks without artillery/general support and in ideal cases wiping them (forcing negative terrain modifiers) before reinforcements arrive.

This entire aspect of multiplayer warfare simply goes out of the window with this change, as there simply aren’t any vulnerable stacks to catch. The same can be said regarding reinforcements, timing them/slowing down reinforcements barely matters since the reinforcement stacks will fight at full strength on their own (cannon backline+general) not requiring the support of other stacks. Your actual decisions while controlling your units will hence be largely irrelevant/of very diminished impact.


Available solutions:
1. Making the backline artillery take less morale damage by a certain percentage, as has been suggested by Gnivom, alleviates both issues but doesn’t solve in particular the first issue (the second also persists to some extent). You will still be (assuming that you want to win your battles) greatly incentivized to reorganize your entire army after every consolidation, just to a different inf to cannon ratio.

2. Another solution would be to simply have artillery take casualties when they take morale damage. This would solve the first issue, but the second would remain. It’d also change artillery cost and performance by a huge amount, opening up other potential issues.

3. Simply don’t make cannons retreat when their morale hits zero. This is how it works on live, and I struggle to see the disadvantages. The main reason for the proposed change seems to be that it’s ‘wrong’ to get the full benefit of these strong cannons while simply employing one stack per battle. I personally find this argument to be quite weak as running cannon stacks in battle is just mandatory in either scenario, and this fact doesn’t change because you have more of them. It should also be noted that the cannons regardless don’t perform in a vacuum, you still need infantry to support them to bring out their power, meaning that the ‘alone’ cannon stack isn’t just functioning on its own, it requires support.


Possible advantages of the beta artillery change:
As mentioned above I’ve struggled to find the advantages of this change, but here are the ones I can find. Not having the possibility of vulnerable stacks being ‘caught out’ is a potential advantage from beginner to mp perspectives, but any beginner-friendliness accomplished by this is to me greatly outweighed by the clunkiness/complexity having to reorganize your stacks after every battle. I also think the economic impact (bigger % of artillery means bigger army costs) can be positive, since ducats can be a bit too readily available in the later stages of the game. However, this result could just as easily be accomplished by simply increasing the maintenance scaling with tech slightly, so it doesn’t really justify the artillery change if it doesn’t bring other additional benefits. My conclusion is that these pros don't come close to outweighing the negative aspects.
Thanks a lot for the detailed feedback!
In the upcoming patch it will be possible to mod BACK_LINE_MORALE_DAMAGE_TAKEN_MODIFIER (=1.0) as well as BACK_LINE_STRENGTH_DAMAGE_TAKEN_MODIFIER (=0.0). This will allow modders to achieve solutions 1 and 2.
We do still see benefits to the new system, but reverting the changes is on the table, as well as changing these defines in vanilla. However we are still holding off a final decision for now.
 
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the time with bancrupcy and super high debt for all AIs is thankfully behind us (and yes, realy thanks) but russias economy still always seems bad. any chance you will look into some of the known problem TAGs some more? (i say know problem TAGs but i admit its just my assumtion)
I'll keep an eye out for it. But it is not my experience that Russia usually has significant economy problems. Of course, this is somewhat random and also sometimes depends on the player's input.
 
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I don't know if this has been mentioned yet but the start screen of the Manchu still refers to Yeren, Udege, and Donghai when they should be Xibe, Nanai, and Orochoni.

I mentioned this in the 1 Feb dev diary but its only a small text change - the dynastic/clan names of Xibe and Nanai are incorrect in the beta build. I suggested Xibe for Xibe and Hurha for Nanai. Hope these minor text details get fixed in the 1.33 release.
Already fixed for 1.33 release version. ;)
Oddly, I get the crash reporter popup when I try to start the game in 1.33 beta, but then the game starts fine as long as I don't quit the crash reporter (which causes an actual crash). I'm on Ubuntu 18.04.6.

The announcement of the patch already mentioned that it crashes on Linux. But it is an interesting workaround that the game actually starts if you ignore the crash reporter
We've been also able to fix the Linux version bug (yay!), so it should be working fine in 1.33 release version.
It seems that this is not working properly in the beta: you can call allies into the Hundred Years War (as England) by promising land, even though this CB doesn't allow taking land.

Here's a save where I can call in Aragon.
Yeah, you're right; but as long as we've changed a bit how CB restriction work (so, now you will be allowed to ask for provinces after having requested the main CB objective), it should be fine.
 
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If I've completely occupied another country by force, ending the war or not should be in my hands. They're not really in a position to demand anything at that point, are they?
They're not demanding anything, they're unconditionally surrendering. Ending the war is still in your hands, but you'll get extra WE from not ending a war that's already over and won.
 
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