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Ex Mudder

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I've found that my factories don't have any clerks, even with a promote clerk NF in New York. There seems to be a hard coded 1.2% that demote to craftsmen if there are slots available for craftsmen. I have no idea where the rest of them are going. My Officers and Bureaucrats are increasing, but my clerks and clergy are decreasing, so it is not a middle class thing.

Anyone else seen this?

And a wierd note to the broke capitalist debate - my low con Dixie Cappies in the south are not getting their needs met, but my high CON Yankees are.
 

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I've had the same issue. After a while, I just gave up on Clerks. Even when I had 0% taxes for the middle class, high 30's for lower class, and Clerk promotion on, I couldn't get more than maybe 30-50 clerks a month.
 

Hagar

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unmerged(41229)

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I'm having weird problems as France. I am getting just about zero clerks but at the same time I am getting thousands of aristocrats and bureaucrats (even with administration at zero). I now have twice as many aristocrats as craftsmen.

Anyone know how to stop this?
 

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It's because craftsmen consume so much more than Aristocrats, so there are very few of them, and when they demote to farmers due to lack of life goods as craftsmen, they have a chance to promote to aristocrats the second time around... so there is constant aristocrat growth.

I suggest modding your POP files or waiting for a mod/patch.
 

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Whoops! Wrong thread. But yeah, I have noticed the lack of clerks too. I think only once, as France, have I seen any reasonable number of clerks
 

Peter Ebbesen

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I suggest that you learn to make your RGOs and your industry profitable* by developing industrial techs and see how your factories, that start out employing almost exclusively craftsmen and being rather inefficient to boot, over several decades turn into model exemplars of industrial might with a high proportion of clerks to craftsmen.

Or you can just go modify the poptype files if you believe it to be a bug that it takes very real work and time to build a prosperous middle class rather than working as designed.



* By profitable I mean not so much for you, as the state, as I mean for the employees, though the two can be the same.
 

unmerged(41229)

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I suggest that you learn to make your RGOs and your industry profitable* by developing industrial techs and see how your factories, that start out employing almost exclusively craftsmen and being rather inefficient to boot, over several decades turn into model exemplars of industrial might with a high proportion of clerks to craftsmen.

Or you can just go modify the poptype files if you believe it to be a bug that it takes very real work and time to build a prosperous middle class rather than working as designed.



* By profitable I mean not so much for you, as the state, as I mean for the employees, though the two can be the same.

Perhaps, but that still doesn't address the other problem---and I can't be the only one having this problem--of getting huge numbers of aristocrats and bureaucrats. It doesn't seem realistic to me that twice as many people would become aristocrats in a "sign up" as craftsmen. It also doesn't make any sense that my bureaucracy continues to grow at an amazingly high rate even with my admin slider at zero. This is all happening alongside modest growth in craftsmen and almost no growth in clerks.

This has become a game breaker for me...unless I am doing something wrong? I have no idea what it could be...:confused:
 

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I suggest that you learn to make your RGOs and your industry profitable* by developing industrial techs and see how your factories, that start out employing almost exclusively craftsmen and being rather inefficient to boot, over several decades turn into model exemplars of industrial might with a high proportion of clerks to craftsmen.

Or you can just go modify the poptype files if you believe it to be a bug that it takes very real work and time to build a prosperous middle class rather than working as designed.

* By profitable I mean not so much for you, as the state, as I mean for the employees, though the two can be the same.

Well, it's not really the clerks that are the problem, it's the lack of craftsmen to support their growth that causes the issue. You simply cannot get enough people to go from craftsmen to clerks, and the other segments of society that can demote to clerks are vital for other reasons and you don't want to suppress them. Without craftsmen, clerks just don't happen.
 

artemis667

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I suggest that you learn to make your RGOs and your industry profitable* by developing industrial techs and see how your factories, that start out employing almost exclusively craftsmen and being rather inefficient to boot, over several decades turn into model exemplars of industrial might with a high proportion of clerks to craftsmen.

Or you can just go modify the poptype files if you believe it to be a bug that it takes very real work and time to build a prosperous middle class rather than working as designed.

Well, you would know the mechanics of this more than anyone else, other than Johan. I'll try that way before modding the files then and see how I go.

Well, it's not really the clerks that are the problem, it's the lack of craftsmen to support their growth that causes the issue. You simply cannot get enough people to go from craftsmen to clerks, and the other segments of society that can demote to clerks are vital for other reasons and you don't want to suppress them. Without craftsmen, clerks just don't happen.

A chicken and egg problem.
But I'm sure we'll work it out...
 

RoboCzar

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Perhaps, but that still doesn't address the other problem---and I can't be the only one having this problem--of getting huge numbers of aristocrats and bureaucrats. It doesn't seem realistic to me that twice as many people would become aristocrats in a "sign up" as craftsmen. It also doesn't make any sense that my bureaucracy continues to grow at an amazingly high rate even with my admin slider at zero. This is all happening alongside modest growth in craftsmen and almost no growth in clerks.

This has become a game breaker for me...unless I am doing something wrong? I have no idea what it could be...:confused:

Well again, when a craftsman demotes due to life needs not being met, they become a farmer. If the farmers are doing very well, they re-promote to craftsmen OR aristocrats OR clergy OR bureaucrats. Because they rotate out of craftsmen so often, they get more chances to become something else, which is why you have an excess of the "else".
 

Hagar

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Peter Ebbesen

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Your aristocrats (and capitalists) are your professional upper classes. If your middle class is wealthy you'll see continous promotion to the aristocracy.

The aristocrats require significantly less daily needs than the capitalists (for balancing reasons) and it is very hard for the aristocracy as a whole to fail to make money as they take their cut directly from the RGO.

Thus anybody from the middle class who gets enough of his needs covered and the stars aligned who advances to the aristocracy is quite likely to stay there, possibly a marginal-existence aristocrat, but he isn't likely to demote because there's nothing you can do in the early game that will hit him hard enough. Heck, you are likely to improve his circumstances and make it even more attractive and easy to join the aristocracy by improving RGO output and money circulation in general. :D

Unless you begin researching commerce techs to increase your tax efficiency and tax the aristocracy highly, expect it to be expanding at a steady clip so long as your country isn't going to hell economically (and sometimes the aristocracy will survive even that).

-----

Your bureaucracy promotion... I can't guess. There are so many things affecting it that one really needs to analyse the saved game to find out. :)

As an amusing example of just one of many things that can have unintended consequences from a player's point of view, take the example of the state that is in financial trouble and cutting down on expenses and look at clergy promotion to bureaucrats:

  1. If you have set your education slider to less than 35%, clergy get a significant bonus to promotion to bureaucrats. IIRC +1.4%. Lots of clergy interested in getting a new job
  2. Clergy also gets a bonus to promotion to bureaucrats depending on the administration slider, which is zero when you have zeroed the slider
  3. And a value that is either a bonus or a penalty depending on literacy (the higher the literacy, the more likely to promote)

The result is that if you are underfunding only the bureaucrats, you will still get some clergy changing jobs to bureaucrats in a literate society.

If you are underfunding both the bureaucrats and the clergy, you will tend to see even more clergy promoting to the bureaucracy, even in illiterate societies.

It'll be even higher if do fund both.

And at its highest if you you underfund clergy and fund the bureaucrats.

EDIT: To be fair, bureaucrats has a similar but reverse relation with clergy with their promotion prospects, so one also has to look at the other promotion possibilities in comparison for the full picture.


Either way, bureaucracies tend to grow in Victoria 2 and there's absolutely no easy way to prevent it. You can have the situation where bureaucrat POPs decline in size but usually the best you can accomplish is to retard the growth of the bureaucracy.
 
Last edited:

RoboCzar

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The aristocrats require significantly less daily needs than the capitalists (for balancing reasons) and it is very hard for the aristocracy as a whole to fail to make money as they take their cut directly from the RGO.

Ok, so finally we hear something about intended demand numbers. I'll flip the capitalists back to the default values, since they are in less dire trouble than the craftsmen. Which brings me to my question, what is the intention behind making craftsmen demand 10-100 times more of a particular good than an artisan or clerk? What overall effect is that supposed to have (besides making it impossible to fill factories before the game ends and making a Laissez-Faire economy solely a comedy of errors?)
 

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Ok, so finally we hear something about intended demand numbers. I'll flip the capitalists back to the default values, since they are in less dire trouble than the craftsmen. Which brings me to my question, what is the intention behind making craftsmen demand 10-100 times more of a particular good than an artisan or clerk? What overall effect is that supposed to have (besides making it impossible to fill factories before the game ends and making a Laissez-Faire economy solely a comedy of errors?)

The Laissez Faire problem is because Capitalists don't look at profitability when deciding what kind of factory to build. You can try all you want to set things up right, but if they insist on building those profitless fertilizer factories over and over there's not much you can do.

Said to be fixed in patch 1.2.
 

artemis667

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The Laissez Faire problem is because Capitalists don't look at profitability when deciding what kind of factory to build. You can try all you want to set things up right, but if they insist on building those profitless fertilizer factories over and over there's not much you can do.

Said to be fixed in patch 1.2.

Oh well - so long as profitable factories are being built as well, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. After all the AI capitalists are going to be wasting their efforts as well.

I guess we think of it as being a sort of never-ending 'dot-com boom' in fertiliser? :)
 

Hyzhenhok

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Oh well - so long as profitable factories are being built as well, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. After all the AI capitalists are going to be wasting their efforts as well.

I guess we think of it as being a sort of never-ending 'dot-com boom' in fertiliser? :)

I don't know. I guess it just feels like the capitalists only want to build profitless factories because the profitable ones have already been built in that state (often by my own hand), and you can't have duplicate factory types in a single state. :)

It does get annoying repeatedly going in and closing those fertilizer factories after I realize I'm paying 100 pounds a day each to keep them in business (because of the Interventionist auto-subsidy of new factories).
 

Peter Ebbesen

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Sorry, RoboCzar, going into details about game balancing is something I cannot comment on; I can only comment on things that are obvious or can be deduced from the released game or has already been covered by a developer. I apologize if my earlier comments led you on to believe I could and I realize this may be a bit frustrating but those are the rules, so please don't fish. :)


That the game mechanics are set up such that aristocrats are set up to become larger in number than capitalists is something I can comment on, however. This is clearly intended design and has been mentioned several times, including, I believe, in the manual. Capitalists are designed to be the most valuable and rare POP type in existence.

It follows that the game mechanics are set up in such a way that this will happen.

Now, some players may think that how this happens is of vital importance and may choke on implementation methods (what? capitalists eat 348,234,484 loaves of bread per day? That can't be right!!!!), but from a design point of view the really important thing is that the game mechanics end up delivering the intended result rather than the exact way you achieve it. Having it happen in a nice way is merely a very nice bonus and, while it is certainly something to strive for, it is not a major goal on its own account.

As such, a good solid bet is that the values that have been chosen to manipulate POPs in one way or another are always that way in order to achieve one or more specific goals given the workings of the game's economy.

But you almost certainly already know this. :)

---------------------------

I can say that I don't have any problems filling my manufactories in the long run in my core industrial states. I tend to have a handful of states - I choose those with highest population that are also easily defended (MP reflex) - that I build up as my industrial centres. They are the ones that get NF Craftsmen for years and decades on end and where the vast majority of my industry goes on. THESE factories tend to grow very large over time if the populace can support it.

...I tend to use my NFs almost exclusively for Craftsmen in the absence of a higher priority like colonising or clergy (for research early on or if the percentage slips later on). I don't use NF for Clerks as I get enough clerks in the long run from running succesful manufactories with lots and lots of craftsmen. I also put an extremely high priority on researching my way down to Nationalism and Imperialism as fast as I can for the extra NFs and the many other boosts on the way. That's just my playstyle and yours might rightfully differ, but the game definitely rewards building up a few strong industrial states and internal migration of craftsmen helps smoothe things out.

In other states I build one manufactory (if State Capitalism) or let others do it for me (Interventionism, Laissez-Faire). THESE factories can take decades to fill even a single level 1 if the states are small (100-300k total state pop). If I am running SC, I typically make most of these small manufactories cement manufactories because cement is nearly always in demand, but their most important task is, unlike my industrial centre, not to become big and mighty - it is to avoid unemployment in the state.

As an example, you can check my top manufactories in 1890 from the end of my Japanese beta AAR in this post. I may not have filled all of the manufactories completely in my industrial centre, but that was only because I was continously expanding to accommodate my growing force of workers (of both types).

LF is currently the worst government (or the most frustrating, rather) due to the capitalists being bad at predicting what to build. Under some circumstances they are good enough, but too often they end up in a death spiral. As King has said on the forum, there's a fix to that upcoming in 1.2

The game balance has changed significantly since my Japan testgame - a less generous economy in general, but on the other hand no horrible demotion to soldier POPs due to lack of fruit early in the game either. (And I can say these things because I already said them in the AAR and got the OK to publish it). This was done with a nation that is rich in natural resources but starts out uncivilized and with fewer techs. The size of the factories must, of course, be seen in comparison with the total population - all five of those states are huge compared to many European states - but looking at it from a percentage basis I ended up with 2.8% craftsmen in a population where almost half of the population lived in colonial states that can't build manufactories and generate few craftsmen, so figure around 5.6% craftsmen out of the population that can become it, which is a very reasonable percentage, from a starting position that is much worse than what you have as most civilized states.

It is also one of the primary reasons that I cannot help but feel that some of the issues you people are having currently and some of the doom and gloom statements are highly influenced by your inexperience with the game and that, say, a week from now, you'll mostly have a different set of problems. :D

...Errr, except for rebels. People ALWAYS complain about rebels in Paradox games and they've done so since EU1. The moment there are no more complaints about rebels I'll assume Paradox has gone bankrupt. But I digress.


That doesn't mean I don't agree that the game needs more balancing work; I do mean that and I said so in my internal beta review of the game that Johan published in this forum a few days ago, just that in some aspects it probably isn't as dire as those of you who are alarmed think right now. :)


...For one thing, the economy needs to be tweaked to be significantly harder, rebels need to once again be made a major threat to human players [I laugh at your puny mass rebellion screenshots! Hah!], the AI should preferably be improved to challenge players more (though thankfully the army AI is adequate and better than most other games, the strategic in general could stand some improvement), and AI restrictions that favour ungrateful players should be removed, and that's just for starters! :p OOoookay, I'll shut up now. :D
 

artemis667

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Thanks Peter - that makes a lot of sense.

I am getting one impression - that this game really has two learning curves.

One is understanding the interface, and the direct consequences of your actions.

The other is understanding the indirect effects of what's going on - as you say - the unintended consequences - where altering one lever somewhere effects a factor, which affects something else in the model that you didn't think of before.

I'm going to try using the NF for promoting craftsmen in a populous state, and build my own factories - and see how that goes.
 
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