no bigger ships than battleships

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Gwayne

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Well balancing is already difficult even with a limited number of hull sizes. So by restricting them it was easier to test.

They can always add more in later dlc. After the game is fully stable.
 
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@stumason:

I stand corrected. Thank you for the infodumps.

Those are the most garish, over the top, horrid lookig designs I ever seen, they even seem to have a ram prow...

They're great, aren't they? The models are downright gorgeous. The player base doesn't call them "flying cathedrals" for nothing.

I did mine with several layers of drybushed metallic colours, successively brighter, over a dark background; and then a brightly coloured prow to identify the ship in question. I think it gives them a look of being immense and service-worn.
 
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@REDDQ:
@stumason:

I stand corrected. Thank you for the infodumps.



They're great, aren't they? The models are downright gorgeous. The player base doesn't call them "flying cathedrals" for nothing.

I did mine with several layers of drybushed metallic colours, successively brighter, over a dark background; and then a brightly coloured prow to identify the ship in question. I think it gives them a look of being immense and service-worn.

Personally I think 40k is crap of the highest order, from the setting to the tech, to the parts of the fandom that take it seriously (I even met a few of those... shudders) but it is a matter of tastes...
 
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I tremendously hope at some point that people make some graphics mods adding ships from other universes into the game! After playing the new Battlefleet Gothic game, I simply must be able to kit out my own empire with those beauties.
 
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By the time the human operator sees the enemy on the monitor the enemy will be in a completely different place. A light-second is not a big distance in space, so it's impossible to ever tell exactly where anything is at the present moment.
And regardless, the human operator would still have to use an IFF, because there's no other way to know what they're looking at. That means firing an electromagnetic signal and waiting for a response. Same thing, just slower.

By the time radar gets reading back the enemy not only will be in different place, he will be twice as much further. I don't need IFF to know how, let's say, MiG-29 looks like. Heck, it is enough it does not look like anything our army has. The idea has to have ship constantly scanning for any object not looking like natural thing happening to float in space and present findings to the commander.

When you see pictures of distant objects taken in space, they are taken through incredibly powerful telescopes. Those telescopes are not only very, very big, but they can only look at a tiny proportion of the sky at once. They also take a long time to set up. If you think it's going to take a long time to use an IFF, then how long do you think it's going to take to rotate and set up your massive telescope to look at an object hundreds of thousands of kilometers away?

Since you can't realistically install a massive telescope on your spaceship, and you certainly can't expect to be able to use it, what you have is a very basic electromagnetic transmitter and receiver, like a radar system, which means you don't see a picture, you just see a blip, and that is all you have to go on.

If we gonna go with our current state of technology then space warfare is pretty much impossible. There is plenty of telescopes, not only optical ones and being passive sensor they cut the time of data gathering by half. And enemy cannot stop to provide input for them. Also it is space, 0g, so nothing is too big. And space telescopes aren't even that massive.

Remember that if you send artificial signal, be it for IFF or radar, you pretty much give away your position. And limited fuel won't let you manoeuvre indefinitely. Also radar hardly gives you a "blimp". Space won't give you that much interference but it doesn't mean there won't be any. Especially if you try to ping far. Also enemy may wish to deploy countermeasures and, in your example, there will be no one onboard to know better.

Yes. Space is extremely, incredibly, unimaginably empty.

You could be in the middle of the asteroid belt, and the entire diameter of earth's atmosphere would likely not cover the distance between you and the nearest object capable of appearing on your radar. Space is really, really, really empty.

No, space is not really, really, really empty. There are stuff in it, planets, black holes and all that. It doesn't matter what earth's atmosphere can or cannot cover when your ship tries to get IFF from a passing comet and then wastes all ammo on it. Not to mention any envoy from aliens.

Maybe. However, if your spacecraft were manned you'd lose your entire fleet and all the humans crewing them. You've wasted millions of gallons of fuel launching all this completely useless life support into orbit just to have a human there who.. could do nothing, and died.

If they were manned commander could order fire even with positive IFF. That is what he is there for.

At the kind of distances we are talking, human operators would be completely and utterly at the mercy of their equipment. They would have absolutely no ability to discern what was going on except by looking at blips on a screen. A computer could do the same thing only faster, and without requiring many tons of additional equipment.

Computers' performance and its understanding of what appears on the sensors is heavily limited by programming. Everything else is jibberish for it. Meanwhile human thinks, that's why he and life support are pretty important. Not to mention the possibility of small repairs. Really the best comp has to offer is to present options to the crew.

It's clear you really like the idea of manned space warfare and I can respect that, it makes for more interesting and fun science fiction, but barring some technological singularity beyond which the future becomes impossible to predict it will not be realistic. Space is very big, it's very difficult to take anything there and it's very dangerous for living things to be there, so even if a human operator did confer an advantage (which I really can't see how it possibly would) it would have to be an advantage capable of outweighing the huge costs and design challenges of putting humans in space in the first place.

Sorry, but CPU driven spacecraft would have to try to have sex with the very first comet it meets. And why not? It does neither care or think. If we had to put our lives in the hands of a computer because of "costs" it would be better not to even bother with fleet.

The idea you have is very simple one: bling > fire > profit but there is no benefit in giving any kind of firepower to a computer, intelligent or not.

I recommend reading Lost Fleet, at least Vol1. Written by USN officer so SciFi is backed by some knowledge about naval operations.
 
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Personally I think 40k is crap of the highest order, from the setting to the tech, to the parts of the fandom that take it seriously (I even met a few of those... shudders) but it is a matter of tastes...

Pure insanity of W40K is what I like about it the most. But sometimes I really get that "too much" feeling. For example Orcs. At first I was like omglol in SF?! What a stupid idea. Then I started reading and it was:

created by ancient race as a weapon < ok, I can buy that
half fungi half biological creatures, new ones are born from spores adult orcs perspire from their skin (or drop dead and release them en masse) < argh, but ok, fair enough
different functions in orc society and knowledge required to do them is written in their DNA < ok, will do
their machinery may not work if there are not enough orcs nearby (in groups the create psionic field which make it work) < oh, for fuck's sake
 
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I was going to say "never played" but then realized I had it in my library. I must not have been terribly impressed with the game itself. *shrug* I'll give it another look.

[edit] heh - yeeeah. 7 minutes played, and then uninstalled. >___>

Why? :)
 

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Pure insanity of W40K is what I like about it the most. But sometimes I really get that "too much" feeling. For example Orcs. At first I was like omglol in SF?! What a stupid idea. Then I started reading and it was:

created by ancient race as a weapon < ok, I can buy that
half fungi half biological creatures, new ones are born from spores adult orcs perspire from their skin (or drop dead and release them en masse) < argh, but ok, fair enough
different functions in orc society and knowledge required to do them is written in their DNA < ok, will do
their machinery may not work if there are not enough orcs nearby (in groups the create psionic field which make it work) < oh, for fuck's sake

Yeah, there seems to be a lack of self restraint on the writers, given that every faction is worse than the rest. I don't really care for lily white versus pitch black, conflicts of gray are more interesting and dynamic, but when your lightest gray is almost black... and things go from bad to worse, constatly...

the bottom line is that I can't find a faction that I actually can tolerate, let alone like.
Some people might enjoy playing such dark and dreary scenarios, but I think that falls on first world woes, after all gaming is escapism, not sure who would like to escape to a place that makes 1984 look like a freaking paradise
 

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By the time radar gets reading back the enemy not only will be in different place, he will be twice as much further. I don't need IFF to know how, let's say, MiG-29 looks like.

Right. But what does a Mig-29 look like three hundred thousand kilometers away?

It looks like nothing, because you can't see it.

There is plenty of telescopes, not only optical ones and being passive sensor they cut the time of data gathering by half.

There are plenty of types of image recognition software as well, but if we're not allowing far-future technology (not that accurate image recognition is particularly far future), then we're stuck with the telescopes we have, not hypothetical wonder-telescopes which can somehow scan the whole sky, form a perfect image of such amazing resolution that it can identify the features of objects hundreds of thousands of kilometers away and somehow convey all this to a human pilot. In this case, it doesn't really matter what part of the electromagnetic spectrum you use, it's about the resolution. If you want to cover the whole sky, then the amount of radiation directed at any given point in the sky will be smaller, which hurts the quality of the image.

Also, part of an active sensor which receives the reflected radiation is also a passive sensor.

Remember that if you send artificial signal, be it for IFF or radar, you pretty much give away your position.

No you don't, because the signal takes time to arrive at its destination, and in the intervening time you would probably want to change velocity.

This is the major challenge of any kind of space warfare. The distances involved are so large that in the time it takes light to cross those distances the object itself will always have a chance to change velocity. Therefore, predicting the trajectory of an object becomes increasingly difficult the further away that object is. Thus, the position of combatants in a space battle is always uncertain. However, if you were thinking of trying to hide and be stealthy, then carrying a human crew is a pretty poor idea because humans need a nice warm atmosphere to live in, and the background of space is very cold.

And limited fuel won't let you manoeuvre indefinitely.

Which is why ideally you want to reduce the payload mass of your spacecraft as much as possible. One way to do this would be not carrying several tons of life support equipment.

Space won't give you that much interference but it doesn't mean there won't be any.

In which case, the same would be more true of trying to passively scan for visual images. The only difference between pinging actively and scanning passively is that pinging actively creates a signal which can then be reflected back onto the reciver, making it more likely something will show up. Without that, you're just pointing the receiver at things and hoping they are emitting enough radiation.

Also enemy may wish to deploy countermeasures and, in your example, there will be no one onboard to know better.

What kind of countermeasures, and how would a human be able to identify them? Remember, the human can't see anything.

No, space is not really, really, really empty. There are stuff in it, planets, black holes and all that.

http://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pixelspace_solarsystem.html

As I've said, the scale of space is not something we are really neurologically equipped to imagine. This little diagram may help to give a vague sense, however, of just how utterly vast the spaces between the various objects in space actually are, and just how utterly insignificant they are in size relative to the emptiness between them. There really is almost nothing out there. It is nothing like earth's oceans. It is nothing like earth's atmosphere. It is a whole different, completely alien environment with a completely different scale to anything we have previously attempted to conceive of or understand. No theoretical knowledge about naval warfare is going to apply. No theoretical knowledge about atmospheric aircraft is going to matter. Realistically, anyone wishing to engage in space warfare must start from the premise that they are fighting in space, and design vehicles which are best suited to the particular features of space itself.. i.e. that space is very big, very empty and very hostile to living things.

As I keep saying, there's nothing wrong with imagination and fiction, but they are just that.
 
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Because it is pointless? Lets say they add a 5th ship size. Ok, now people are asking for bigger ships. So a 6th ship size. Then people will be asking for bigger ships. So a 7th ship size....
There is either a limit, or some dynamic way of making increasingly larger sizes of ship, and what purpose does that really serve? It makes the game more complicated toward no real purpose. Now suddenly you need a balanced fleet with 100 corvettes, 60 destroyers, 30 cruisers, 15 battleships, 7 super-battleships, 3 super-super battleships, and 1 super-super-super battleship. Then in 30 years you need to double all that and add in a super-super-super-super battleship. Then in 30 more years....
There will always be people who want something bigger, even when you have a planet sized weapon.

 
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"Tactical Bork cube?"
Hallo, ve are Spess Nørvay! Vould you like to come øver to our Børk cube to have shome fårikål und klippfisk? Is delicacy back on tündra homevorld! And then ve vill relax in the liqvid nitrogen sauna for 5 hours! Refreshink!

I just laughed my ass of in a very inappropriate setting. Thanks.
 
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Stumson your knowledge of Star Wars is impressive... But what does adding that many classes add to the game when 4-5 classes basically covers those classifications more or less?

I actually agree with that standpoint, see my earlier post. I was disagreeing with the other fellow over his own interpretation of ship classes. The ones in the game are fine and each can be tailored to fill any of the roles outlined above.
 
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Yeah, there seems to be a lack of self restraint on the writers, given that every faction is worse than the rest. I don't really care for lily white versus pitch black, conflicts of gray are more interesting and dynamic, but when your lightest gray is almost black... and things go from bad to worse, constatly...

the bottom line is that I can't find a faction that I actually can tolerate, let alone like.
Some people might enjoy playing such dark and dreary scenarios, but I think that falls on first world woes, after all gaming is escapism, not sure who would like to escape to a place that makes 1984 look like a freaking paradise
When it doubt, support the Imperium and the God-Emperor, as we exist by their grace alone.

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt
 
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Way back in the day, 40k was written to be absurd. The players were not supposed to identify with any faction so much as to mock them for their ridiculousness. Because of this, everything was cartoonishly overstated.

Somewhere along the way, people forgot this and started taking it seriously. I blame Andy Chambers.
 
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the bottom line is that I can't find a faction that I actually can tolerate, let alone like.

Tau Empire maybe? :)

Right. But what does a Mig-29 look like three hundred thousand kilometers away?

It looks like nothing, because you can't see it.

You wouldn't be able to see it on radar, that's for sure.

There are plenty of types of image recognition software as well, but if we're not allowing far-future technology (not that accurate image recognition is particularly far future), then we're stuck with the telescopes we have, not hypothetical wonder-telescopes which can somehow scan the whole sky, form a perfect image of such amazing resolution that it can identify the features of objects hundreds of thousands of kilometers away and somehow convey all this to a human pilot. In this case, it doesn't really matter what part of the electromagnetic spectrum you use, it's about the resolution. If you want to cover the whole sky, then the amount of radiation directed at any given point in the sky will be smaller, which hurts the quality of the image.

Also, part of an active sensor which receives the reflected radiation is also a passive sensor.

If we are stuck with telescopes we have then we are stuck with radar we have. Most powerful ones are not only gigantic, they also extremely lack range and use a lot of power.

"Part of an active sensor" is the important part. There are military radars that can get a reading on receiving only but on the Earth it is much easier.

No you don't, because the signal takes time to arrive at its destination, and in the intervening time you would probably want to change velocity.

This is the major challenge of any kind of space warfare. The distances involved are so large that in the time it takes light to cross those distances the object itself will always have a chance to change velocity. Therefore, predicting the trajectory of an object becomes increasingly difficult the further away that object is. Thus, the position of combatants in a space battle is always uncertain. However, if you were thinking of trying to hide and be stealthy, then carrying a human crew is a pretty poor idea because humans need a nice warm atmosphere to live in, and the background of space is very cold.

Yes, you do. You keep bothering him for IFF or try to ping, that alone makes him aware of your presence and general direction. Of course rare ping means you will be harder to detect but also your detection abilitie will drop to zero. Meanwhile shorter intervals increase your detection ability but in return your erratic flight pattern becomes easier to predict. Btw. do you know what SEAD missile is?

He can then use high yeld missiles to try and take you down. Evasive manoeuvres will be difficult as by that point your ship probably already lacks fuel from constant change of course. Alarmed hostile ship probably will return fire which means you will get shoot at moments after receiving returning ping and you will have difficulties in returning fire effectively as hostile ship will evade forrealzies and will have plenty of fuel to do it.

Meanwhile if you kept silent you could detect enemy passively and snipe with no danger to yourself. Hostile ship wouldn't know what hit him.

You know what is warmer than our nice atmosphere we like to live in? Reactors. But I see my point is getting through as you look for such things in infrared.

Which is why ideally you want to reduce the payload mass of your spacecraft as much as possible. One way to do this would be not carrying several tons of life support equipment.

That won't help you.

In which case, the same would be more true of trying to passively scan for visual images. The only difference between pinging actively and scanning passively is that pinging actively creates a signal which can then be reflected back onto the reciver, making it more likely something will show up. Without that, you're just pointing the receiver at things and hoping they are emitting enough radiation.

It is hard for anything not to emit radiation.

What kind of countermeasures, and how would a human be able to identify them? Remember, the human can't see anything.

http://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pixelspace_solarsystem.html

Well, I said "in your example" which means countermeasures creating fake reflections for the radar. Or ECM. Even if radar could detect things reliably, which it can't, human operator can make sense out of it. Program will just shoot.

As I've said, the scale of space is not something we are really neurologically equipped to imagine. This little diagram may help to give a vague sense, however, of just how utterly vast the spaces between the various objects in space actually are, and just how utterly insignificant they are in size relative to the emptiness between them. There really is almost nothing out there. It is nothing like earth's oceans. It is nothing like earth's atmosphere. It is a whole different, completely alien environment with a completely different scale to anything we have previously attempted to conceive of or understand. No theoretical knowledge about naval warfare is going to apply. No theoretical knowledge about atmospheric aircraft is going to matter. Realistically, anyone wishing to engage in space warfare must start from the premise that they are fighting in space, and design vehicles which are best suited to the particular features of space itself.. i.e. that space is very big, very empty and very hostile to living things.

Yes, yes, very big, very empty and yet there are things in there which drone will happily attack. That was the point you continue to ignore but I will repeat it as much as it is needed.

Automated drone will fire on not important targets, wastes ammo on them and fake radar reflections and star a war with alien empire if given a chance. All things "useless" human can stop.

As I keep saying, there's nothing wrong with imagination and fiction, but they are just that.
As long as you remember you are describing yourself as well.
 

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I see some here mentioning Warhammer 40K, I am a huge fan of the 40K universe though I only read the novels and I'm getting ready for the "End Time" Event a few Authors are going to write it, thought not sure if their will be a continuation of 40K after.

On the ship size, wouldn't a Dreadnaught be a battleship but bigger with bigger weapons, armor etc? Or if its not going to be called a Dreadnaught then a Super Battleship or a Super Carrier?
 

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I see some here mentioning Warhammer 40K, I am a huge fan of the 40K universe though I only read the novels and I'm getting ready for the "End Time" Event a few Authors are going to write it, thought not sure if their will be a continuation of 40K after.

On the ship size, wouldn't a Dreadnaught be a battleship but bigger with bigger weapons, armor etc? Or if its not going to be called a Dreadnaught then a Super Battleship or a Super Carrier?
I have a strong feeling they won't actually end it. That was kind of the thing about 40k. Endless War, and it is set up thusly. It would be nice to see an end to the story but I don't think GW would allow itself to do that, it limits a lot of their lore.