no bigger ships than battleships

[SanguineGus]

Surimi is right, warfare has already been automated like this for half a century.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=30

And while the star trek version of colonization is pure fantasy with our current understanding of technology, I do think that life is too valuable to only happen here. Seed the galaxy, send out a bunch of tubes of slime or Tardigrades or whatever towards a couple million stars and hope for the best.

 

[chassepatrick]

How could anyone possibly disagree with having bigger ship classes?!

How could anyone possibly think that adding bigger classes of ships would be a good idea?

KISS

All current "classes" of ship are in the game... by adding bigger ships you're just making it more complicated... You gain absolutely nothing from adding a bigger ship except more complexity... And in the Blorg stream you can change the composition of these classes (large weapon and 2 medums, 2 mediums and 4 small, etc.) add another size and you're adding complexity while not adding anything else.

Spoiler

Basically what we have are Hull sizes. Tiny, small, medium, large (, massive if you're a Military government). What does adding more sizes actually add the game? Out of the sizes we have already you can make (compared to WWI/WWII/modern naval classes) corvettes, destroyers, cruisers, battle-cruisers, battleships, dreadnoughts, carriers, light carriers, frigates, aircraft cruisers/light carriers, torpedo (space)boats, monitors/ironclads (depends if small craft can carry large weapons), pocket battleships (again depends on the compositions).

Keep it simple stupid!

 

[Surimi]

I mean like, we tend to die a lot too. But at the moment, most machines don't last as long as us unless they are like bricks without many moving parts.

This may indeed be true, but bear in mind that when you're in space or on another planet there are going to be a bunch of machines keeping you alive, and those machines also have moving parts. A human being on Mars without any machines will last perhaps a minute. A human being on Venus without any machines would last a fraction of a second. Compare that with Opportunity, which is still trucking around Mars 11 years after arriving, or some of the Venera missions, which survived on Venus for almost an hour.

There is absolutely nothing in space, and almost nothing on Mars, to sustain human life. Everything we need has to be taken with us and carried for the entire journey, in addition to all the fuel required to actually move all the extra things we need to take. Mechanical failure is just as likely on manned Mars missions as unmanned ones, with the slight difference that, with the right replacement parts, the crew may be able to fix any problems which arise, but regardless, organic life cannot survive in space, or as far as we know anywhere in the solar system which is not Earth, without taking every single thing they need to survive with them, and if one of those things fails then they die. It is a very real risk.

Again, in space organic life is the most fragile component imaginable. Everything in that environment will kill you.

 

[REDDQ]

Surimi is right, warfare has already been automated like this for half a century.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=30

And while the star trek version of colonization is pure fantasy with our current understanding of technology, I do think that life is too valuable to only happen here. Seed the galaxy, send out a bunch of tubes of slime or Tardigrades or whatever towards a couple million stars and hope for the best.

He is wrong, link you posted proves that.

Again, in space organic life is the most fragile component imaginable. Everything in that environment will kill you.

It is indeed very fragile but the whole point of going into space is to actually go into space. Until some kind of super AI is created human factor is mandatory element of waging wars. It is especially true in space where information going with the speed of light takes years to go anywhere. But that is realism. Thankfully we all are here for Fi part of Sci-FI.

 

[mocoman2001]

This might be a little off topic, but why would any one want to colonize Mars over Venus? Venus is the much better choice, if you goal is to keep your eggs in multiple baskets. Mars will never be a good choice, because of its gravity difference. Venus on the other hand gravity is very close to earth, we would have to work out more to keep our bodies healthy, but very doable from a gravity point of view.

Now I can already hear you nay Sayers saying, but Venus is hot, and this is true on the surface. The upper atmosphere is very livable, not to hot, and you can survive contact with it, as long as you are wearing a respiratory mask. The facts are both mars and Venus suck for supporting human life, but at least Venus is a long term viable option for a self sustaining colony, unlike mars.

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

Now I can already hear you nay Sayers saying, but Venus is hot, and this is true on the surface. The upper atmosphere is very livable, not to hot, and you can survive contact with it, as long as you are wearing a respiratory mask. The facts are both mars and Venus suck for supporting human life, but at least Venus is a long term viable option for a self sustaining colony, unlike mars.

It is true that Venus would be livable if you stayed in the upper atmosphere, never went down to the surface, and remained inside an airtight environment at all times.

However, this rather defeats the point of living on a planet. If we wanted to live in airtight environments far away from the ground, we could live in space habitats.

 

[stumason]

I would love more ship classes. DLC or Mod perhaps?
Light Cruiser, Battlecruiser, Dreadnought, Superdreadnought, Monitor, Supermonitor.
For those who know it, i would love a Starfire Mod.

Each of those ship classes you describe is essentially a sub-class of another.

Light Cruiser - Lightly armed/armoured Cruiser, do this yourself in ship designer.

Battlecruiser - Heavily armed/armoured Cruiser, do this yourself in ship designer.

Superdreadnought - A Dreadnaught is just a normal Battleship, they only picked up this name because the first of the class, HMS Dreadnaught really captured the imagination, but they were quickly superseded and outclassed by post Great War battleships. Either way, you can do this yourself in ship designer.

Monitor/Supermonitor - Once again, a monitor is just a corvette sized ship with oversized guns. Historically, they were coastal ships used for river/shore patrols and/or bombardment. You can do this yourself in ship designer.

So, in essence, no point having a DLC for it.

 

[Slyvena]

-snip-

True, what I mean is right now humans add value to a space mission.

Now I can already hear you nay Sayers saying, but Venus is hot, and this is true on the surface. The upper atmosphere is very livable, not to hot, and you can survive contact with it, as long as you are wearing a respiratory mask. The facts are both mars and Venus suck for supporting human life, but at least Venus is a long term viable option for a self sustaining colony, unlike mars.

You know what atmosphere is even better... earth. If it's not economical to build high-altitude habitats here it will -never- be a good idea in that caustic acidic, not magnetically shielded, permanent cyclone, death trap of a furnace planet

 

[tilcir]

Not sure if anyone pointed it out, since OP got buried in other discussions... but.

I feel it is important to remember that Stellaris is NOT just a 4x space game, it is also very much a GSG.

At some point the 4x part SHOULD be done and focus will have shifted to GSG completely.
So most research that have a big effect of wars, such as the size of ships, should be relatively easy to get to.

If we end up with a game where the strenght of empires varies too much, solely because of tech, I feel that a big part of the GSG would be lost.

 

[Slyvena]

Not sure if anyone pointed it out, since OP got buried in other discussions... but.

Do you like waffles, I love waffles

If we end up with a game where the strenght of empires varies too much, solely because of tech, I feel that a big part of the GSG would be lost.

I trust paradox with my life and my children. I'm pretty sure they will get this right

 

[REDDQ]

This might be a little off topic, but why would any one want to colonize Mars over Venus? Venus is the much better choice, if you goal is to keep your eggs in multiple baskets. Mars will never be a good choice, because of its gravity difference. Venus on the other hand gravity is very close to earth, we would have to work out more to keep our bodies healthy, but very doable from a gravity point of view.

Now I can already hear you nay Sayers saying, but Venus is hot, and this is true on the surface. The upper atmosphere is very livable, not to hot, and you can survive contact with it, as long as you are wearing a respiratory mask. The facts are both mars and Venus suck for supporting human life, but at least Venus is a long term viable option for a self sustaining colony, unlike mars.

Because digging, processing and eventually hauling any resources on Mars will be easier, partially thanks to low gravity, which makes achieving escape velocity easier with less power required. Also if you have to live in contained spaces, you as well might do it on Mars where stable ground is at least available and in lower gravity construction is that much easier. Also sure, Mars' gravity ain't 1g but it is not 0g as well.

 

[REDDQ]

The only thing I miss about ship creation is possibility to have modules with extra place for engines in exchange for less weapons or armour. Or at least I did not see such.

 

[stumason]

The only thing I miss about ship creation is possibility to have modules with extra place for engines in exchange for less weapons or armour. Or at least I did not see such.

There are different section types you can choose for the ships, each with a different amount of spaces/module sizes.

 

[Knotz]

Wonder if you can make a whole fleet of oversized military dictatorship ships after a few hundred years.

 

[REDDQ]

There are different section types you can choose for the ships, each with a different amount of spaces/module sizes.

I know.

 

[Surimi]

It is indeed very fragile but the whole point of going into space is to actually go into space.

Sure, but "going to space" is an end unto itself, and one entirely separate from waging war in space. We don't need to be in space to wage war in space.

Until some kind of super AI is created human factor is mandatory element of waging wars.

Why.

The reason present-day drones need a pilot is that they fly around in earth's atmosphere shooting at stuff on the ground, and there's all kinds of stuff on the ground which a drone itself might not be able to recognize. If a vehicle is driving down the road the drone has no way of knowing if it's an enemy military vehicle or a farmer taking his goods to market. The human element is required there in order to make that judgement call.

Space, on the other hand, is empty. There's pretty much nothing in it, so anything which is there should automatically be raising suspicion. Furthermore, the distances in space are so large that visual identification is already useless. A human operator has no way of knowing what he or she is shooting at, it's just a tiny blip on a screen. Thirdly, there is no reason for civilians to be moving through a warzone unplanned, even assuming there are civilians in space, because they can only live in specially built habitats.

There is no need for a judgement call. If something is there, send it an electromagnetic signal and see if it returns a valid response. If it does then it's friendly, if it doesn't, shoot it just to make sure. A human operator sitting in a spaceship would not be able to do any more than this, they'd just do it slower.

 

[Matthias77]

Each of those ship classes you describe is essentially a sub-class of another.

Light Cruiser - Lightly armed/armoured Cruiser, do this yourself in ship designer.

Battlecruiser - Heavily armed/armoured Cruiser, do this yourself in ship designer.

Superdreadnought - A Dreadnaught is just a normal Battleship, they only picked up this name because the first of the class, HMS Dreadnaught really captured the imagination, but they were quickly superseded and outclassed by post Great War battleships. Either way, you can do this yourself in ship designer.

Monitor/Supermonitor - Once again, a monitor is just a corvette sized ship with oversized guns. Historically, they were coastal ships used for river/shore patrols and/or bombardment. You can do this yourself in ship designer.

So, in essence, no point having a DLC for it.

In history, you are correct. But this is no history.

In science fiction (i.e. Starfire Universe) a CL is a smaller faster Cruiser, a BC is a Battleship with Cruiser armor and Cruiser speed.
Dreadnougths/Superdreadnougths are bigger battleships and Monitors and Supermonitors are mobile Battlestations.

 

[stumason]

In history, you are correct. But this is no history.

In science fiction (i.e. Starfire Universe) a CL is a smaller faster Cruiser, a BC is a Battleship with Cruiser armor and Cruiser speed.
Dreadnougths/Superdreadnougths are bigger battleships and Monitors and Supermonitors are mobile Battlestations.

In that particular SF universe, those terms may apply, but generally speaking in most SF, those terms are ripped directly from terrestrial Naval terminology. Tbh, I've never heard of this "Starfire Universe". I could counter with a plethora of other SG Universes where those terms a direct corollaries of Terrestrial terms.

 

[REDDQ]

Why.

The reason present-day drones need a pilot is that they fly around in earth's atmosphere shooting at stuff on the ground, and there's all kinds of stuff on the ground which a drone itself might not be able to recognize. If a vehicle is driving down the road the drone has no way of knowing if it's an enemy military vehicle or a farmer taking his goods to market. The human element is required there in order to make that judgement call.

Space, on the other hand, is empty. There's pretty much nothing in it, so anything which is there should automatically be raising suspicion. Furthermore, the distances in space are so large that visual identification is already useless. A human operator has no way of knowing what he or she is shooting at, it's just a tiny blip on a screen. Thirdly, there is no reason for civilians to be moving through a warzone unplanned, even assuming there are civilians in space, because they can only live in specially built habitats.

There is no need for a judgement call. If something is there, send it an electromagnetic signal and see if it returns a valid response. If it does then it's friendly, if it doesn't, shoot it just to make sure. A human operator sitting in a spaceship would not be able to do any more than this, they'd just do it slower.

By the time electromagnetic signal gets pinged back to your ship the enemy will be in totally different place. Actually visual contact is the fastest kind of information we know. Speed of light after all and it is already coming your way. And we all know, just from looking at a picture, that we see a ship. For computer it is bunch of pixels. Also, is space really empty? Asteroids, comets... envoys from other empires trying to say hi? Drone can fire at anything. Not to mention that IFF signal might be copied and it will render your entire fleet useless.

You know what is empty? Earth's atmosphere. And yet we still have human operators for AA systems even though air warfare fits everything you said and happens with speed and at distances that are fraction of what there is in space.

Humans have place in spaceships to do things computers can't. To think about solution when unthinkable happens.

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

In Star Wars the largest sort of ship is a Destroyer. In Warhammer 40,000 a ship of the line is a Cruiser.

There is no consistency in science fiction ship designation. Stellaris's system of designation is yet another system, disagreeing with many but no more wrong than any other.