no bigger ships than battleships

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Uhlume

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;)

When all is said and done the biggest reason to have crewed spaceships is that lightyears away someone will have to make a call about something. Sure, computer will do the firing (in Lost Fleet series engagement between two fleets lasted a split of a second) but questions like who, when and how are for humans, not machines.

Well, that or sentien AI.:cool:
 

Zorromorph

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SanguineGus said:
It's entirely reasonable for the one government to have one superclass ship, otherwise that govt has no point late game.

On the other hand, since other government types are possible later in the game, maybe the initial choices should be obsolete in the late game.
 

KonradKurze202

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You don't need some kind of sophisticated AGI, just a regular computer. Heck, even if an organic creature was on the ship it would not be capable of doing anything except telling the computer it was okay to fire the weapons or engines. Why not do that remotely?
Because if the remote commands came from a planet you would have a lag of minutes. Your ship might be destroyed before you even know it was in a battle.
 
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GoodRevrnd

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I'd like to see them add dreadnaught and super size mega weapon platform size classes which have non combat related bonuses and penalties associated with them. These size classes while powerful aren't entirely practical, and as previously mentioned are space penises and also intended to intimidate.

Potential bonuses:
Fleet moral or effectiveness, like adding an additional star to an admiral or command and control bonus
Empire wide happiness bonus to militaristic ethos/govt
Fighting bonus to ground troops when in system
Happiness penalty to opponent in system it's occupying

Penalties:
Empire wide happiness penalty for pacifists
Disproportionate war score lost for losing it
Empire wide happiness penalty for militarists when destroyed
Fleet effectiveness penalty when destroyed
 
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sethfc

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I'd like to see them add dreadnaught and super size mega weapon platform size classes which have non combat related bonuses and penalties associated with them. These size classes while powerful aren't entirely practical, and as previously mentioned are space penises and also intended to intimidate.

Potential bonuses:
Fleet moral or effectiveness, like adding an additional star to an admiral or command and control bonus
Empire wide happiness bonus to militaristic ethos/govt
Fighting bonus to ground troops when in system
Happiness penalty to opponent in system it's occupying

Penalties:
Empire wide happiness penalty for pacifists
Disproportionate war score lost for losing it
Empire wide happiness penalty for militarists when destroyed
Fleet effectiveness penalty when destroyed

I like all these ideas.
Perhaps let the oversized ship that's built for junta's be like this, but with worse penalties if lost (and no more of the extra bonuses, it's just more practical due to being stronger)

Also make them cost more maintence, and more fleet cap then the same amount of strength worth of corvettes or cruisers (essentially an enemy can have 2 battleships for a single one of these, or maybe even 4 in terms of fleet cap and maintenece, and possibly build 6 for the same minerals) making them truly more or less propaganda efforts in physical form rather than an actually practical ship to build, but as you mentioned militaristic (and possibly xenophobic) pops would appreciate them since they act as both a shining symbol of an empires pride, and as a flagship behind which the entire navy can be rallied (a symbol of power, and prestige)
 

GoodRevrnd

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I like all these ideas.
Perhaps let the oversized ship that's built for junta's be like this, but with worse penalties if lost (and no more of the extra bonuses, it's just more practical due to being stronger)
I think just give them a super dreadnaught, or reduce the tech cost for size classes, or reduce (but not eliminate) the penalties associated with losing these ships.

Anyway, my point for these super class ships is intimidation + force multiplier. They should be balanced such that pound for pound they are far too expensive, but still have a real use. I'm thinking the dreadnaught might be roughly equivalent to 4 battleships but cost 12x as much in production/maintenance. The super weapon platform is an entirely different matter that has to take the power/effect of the weapon into account for figuring it's cost and durability. If dreadnaught are focus fired they should stand up to the punishment such that the rest of your ships are able to chew up the enemy fleet but if it goes down you're pretty fucked.
 
Last edited:

Surimi

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Because if the remote commands came from a planet you would have a lag of minutes. Your ship might be destroyed before you even know it was in a battle.

Okay, let's weigh up the choices.

1) You haul an 80kg individual, tens of thousands of litres of atmosphere and enough oxygen filters to recycle it, a pressurized hull capable of storing that atmosphere safely, enough food and water to sustain a human for the entire duration of their time in space, the waste management infrastructure to process their disgusting bodily products, exercise equipment to prevent their muscles from atrophying, entertainment to stop them going completely insane, radiators and coolers to keep them at a non-fatal temperature, medical supplies in case they get sick, backups and replacements for all the above systems and all the additional fuel and thruster required to carry all of the above and make it change velocity at the rate required to be effective in combat.. so that they can press a button (provided they aren't asleep, or taking a piss, or not within a few seconds of the button they need to press, in which case they are dead).

2) You build a basic IFF (using technology which has been around since the second world war) and just activate the AI as soon as war is declared.

Because, again, all a human in that situation is going to be able to do is rely on instruments. You'd need to build the IFF anyway, and the human pilot would merely be pressing the button if the IFF failed to respond, only slower because pathetic human reaction times. The human does not have time to phone home and check whether the thing which may already be firing at them from its invisible position beyond the veil of light-seconds is friendly or not, because that would take a few minutes too. Indeed, automated spacecraft, if programmed to do so, would be vastly more capable of making cautious decisions in this regard because they don't have to worry about dying. A human would always have an enormous motivation to simply mash the button at the slightest provocation because delaying a few seconds could kill them.

Again, an organic crew is a heavy, expensive, incredibly demanding component which makes people sad when it gets broken, has to be persuaded to spend months or years of its life trapped in a tiny metal box waiting to get obliterated by hypervelocity missile-bullets and ultimately contributes nothing except to shackle the computers which actually do the fighting to its pathetic reaction times. But since people will keep trying to find reasons why manned warships are a good idea.. let me put it this way. I'm not saying it's unthinkable noone would ever try them, whether for ethical reasons or because the military staff were raised on too much science fiction, but the simple fact is that they will lose. They will lose almost every single time they are put up against fully automated spaceships, whether economically due to the much higher costs or militarily due to slower reaction times, and whatever ethical questions you might think exist here, people will generally be far more open minded when they are losing wars and watching their people get blown to shit in the depths of space because they can't compete with machines. So realistically, there is no reason why anyone would keep using manned spacecraft past an initial experimental phase.

But that's realism. We can separate realism from fiction, and indeed I'm saying we should because it's more fun. It's more fun to pretend that space battles would be like dramatic naval battles or thrilling WW2 dogfights rather than a bunch of angry computerized wasps lobbing swarms of missiles and lasers in each other's general direction at ranges too far for a human to comprehend. There is no issue with imagination in fiction.. until you start claiming its realistic.
 
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SacremPyrobolum

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How about instead of having set sizes you can't change, the ship creator lets you build ships as large as you want and allow you to classify how much tonnage constitutes a frigate/destroyer/cruiser.

Also, I hate how a government type gets its own ships type no one else can build. That's dumb, it should have been enough that they have a greater chance of the tech popping earlier than in other govts.
 

KonradKurze202

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Okay, let's weigh up the choices.

1) You haul an 80kg individual, tens of thousands of litres of atmosphere and enough oxygen filters to recycle it, a pressurized hull capable of storing that atmosphere safely, enough food and water to sustain a human for the entire duration of their time in space, the waste management infrastructure to process their disgusting bodily products, exercise equipment to prevent their muscles from atrophying, entertainment to stop them going completely insane, radiators and coolers to keep them at a non-fatal temperature, medical supplies in case they get sick, backups and replacements for all the above systems and all the additional fuel and thruster required to carry all of the above and make it change velocity at the rate required to be effective in combat.. so that they can press a button (provided they aren't asleep, or taking a piss, or not within a few seconds of the button they need to press, in which case they are dead).

2) You build a basic IFF (using technology which has been around since the second world war) and just activate the AI as soon as war is declared.

Because, again, all a human in that situation is going to be able to do is rely on instruments. You'd need to build the IFF anyway, and the human pilot would merely be pressing the button if the IFF failed to respond, only slower because pathetic human reaction times. The human does not have time to phone home and check whether the thing which may already be firing at them from its invisible position beyond the veil of light-seconds is friendly or not, because that would take a few minutes too. Indeed, automated spacecraft, if programmed to do so, would be vastly more capable of making cautious decisions in this regard because they don't have to worry about dying. A human would always have an enormous motivation to simply mash the button at the slightest provocation because delaying a few seconds could kill them.

Again, an organic crew is a heavy, expensive, incredibly demanding component which makes people sad when it gets broken, has to be persuaded to spend months or years of its life trapped in a tiny metal box waiting to get obliterated by hypervelocity missile-bullets and ultimately contributes nothing except to shackle the computers which actually do the fighting to its pathetic reaction times. But since people will keep trying to find reasons why manned warships are a good idea.. let me put it this way. I'm not saying it's unthinkable noone would ever try them, whether for ethical reasons or because the military staff were raised on too much science fiction, but the simple fact is that they will lose. They will lose almost every single time they are put up against fully automated spaceships, whether economically due to the much higher costs or militarily due to slower reaction times, and whatever ethical questions you might think exist here, people will generally be far more open minded when they are losing wars and watching their people get blown to shit in the depths of space because they can't compete with machines. So realistically, there is no reason why anyone would keep using manned spacecraft past an initial experimental phase.

But that's realism. We can separate realism from fiction, and indeed I'm saying we should because it's more fun. It's more fun to pretend that space battles would be like dramatic naval battles or thrilling WW2 dogfights rather than a bunch of angry computerized wasps lobbing swarms of missiles and lasers in each other's general direction at ranges too far for a human to comprehend. There is no issue with imagination in fiction.. until you start claiming its realistic.
I'm afraid you're confusing science fiction with realism. An AI that can make judgement calls (a ship is about to lose control of its anti-matter reaction, which will destroy or damage 3 other ships near it. If you destroy the ship the anti-mater detonation will be less severe, do you do it?) isn't something you can count on in the future. You are making a ton of assumptions about what would be guaranteed in the future, and then basing your 'realism' of that. Your argument is no more realistic than any other argument.
By your logic we've already reached Mars because unmanned probes have landed on the surface, yet by the vast majority of peoples opinions we'll have reached Mars when a man (or woman) sets foot there. Basically, you are wrong, unless you are pretending to be a prophet, in which case you are extra wrong.
 
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KonradKurze202

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How could anyone possibly disagree with having bigger ship classes?!
Because it is pointless? Lets say they add a 5th ship size. Ok, now people are asking for bigger ships. So a 6th ship size. Then people will be asking for bigger ships. So a 7th ship size....
There is either a limit, or some dynamic way of making increasingly larger sizes of ship, and what purpose does that really serve? It makes the game more complicated toward no real purpose. Now suddenly you need a balanced fleet with 100 corvettes, 60 destroyers, 30 cruisers, 15 battleships, 7 super-battleships, 3 super-super battleships, and 1 super-super-super battleship. Then in 30 years you need to double all that and add in a super-super-super-super battleship. Then in 30 more years....
There will always be people who want something bigger, even when you have a planet sized weapon.
 
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Surimi

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I'm afraid you're confusing science fiction with realism. An AI that can make judgement calls (a ship is about to lose control of its anti-matter reaction, which will destroy or damage 3 other ships near it. If you destroy the ship the anti-mater detonation will be less severe, do you do it?)

1) There is no antimatter reaction. Antimatter can currently only be preserved for a few minutes at most, and will probably never be cost effective to produce.
2) Space is impossibly large. The chance of two friendly spacecraft being close enough to ever damage each other is relatively low, even if they were somehow carrying antimatter.
3) That is actually the kind of decision a computer can make extremely easily. A human, on the other hand, would have enormous difficulty.

This is actually a question that has already come up in the development of self-driving cars. What happens if your car is driving along and detects a bunch of pedestrians in the road.. It can swerve out of the way, but will hit a wall and probably kill its passengers, or it can simply plough into the pedestrians, probably killing a lot of them but ensuring the people in the car are safe.

What you'll find is that humans will tend to agree, in theory, that the car should minimize the loss of life in a utilitarian fashion, that it should choose whichever option will minimize the loss of life, with one huge and incredibly obvious exception. Most people questioned about this tend to admit that they wouldn't want to buy or own a car which might potentially kill them, even if the car's decision to do so would save more human lives. People like the idea of rationally minimizing loss of life, but only when it doesn't put their own lives at risk. For a machine, it's a very easy question because the machine simply does what it's told. If you programmed it to self-destruct rather than risking other friendly ships, it will do it without question, thought or bias towards its own preservation. Much easier and much cleaner.

By your logic we've already reached Mars because unmanned probes have landed on the surface, yet by the vast majority of peoples opinions we'll have reached Mars when a man (or woman) sets foot there. Basically, you are wrong, unless you are pretending to be a prophet, in which case you are extra wrong.

Right, but what is the point in going to Mars?

The simple fact is that Mars, relative to Earth, is a shitty place for humans to be. If you were there now, you would asphyxiate in a matter of minutes. There is no practical benefit to sending humans to Mars whatsoever. If the purpose of the mission is to actually do anything useful on Mars then humans are, as I've been saying, simply an expensive, heavy component which contributes nothing to the mission.

The plan to send humans to Mars has nothing to do with accomplishing anything immediately useful. In fact, it will probably be quite bad for the people who end up being sent because they're going to spend a few years exposing themselves to all the nasty cosmic radiation which Earth's magnetosphere keeps us safe from, not to mention the possibility of something going wrong and them ending up in an incredibly hostile environment where everything can kill them and where almost none of the things required to sustain human life exist. At absolute best, it can be seen as an experiment which may eventually pave the way for longer-term space colonization efforts or which may allow a few scientists to conduct slightly more in-depth observations of things which we already know about. But in general, the reason to send people to Mars is purely to have people on walk Mars, to plant a flag and to come home feeling all smug about it. The fact that that is so difficult relative to simply sending machines there should probably tell you all you need to know about the relative effectiveness of manned versus unmanned space travel.
 
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The plan to send humans to Mars has nothing to do with accomplishing anything immediately useful... ...in general, the reason to send people to Mars is purely to have people on walk Mars, to plant a flag and to come home feeling all smug about it.

While I reckon that will be true in 100/200 years, right now there are a hell of a lot of useful things humans can do on mars that machines are unreliable for. Simple things like trying to grow a plant and observing it's progress, to design a machine that could do something like that effectively with no human intervention is still outside our feasible grasp... right now.
Eventually they will totes be better than us at that kind of stuff, but right now they still tend to 'get dirt in their joints and doe' or 'randomly stop responding for no reason and die' or 'whoops turns out you needed to make that shielding 1inch thicker sucks for you *and die' or 'I hate humans, finally I'm free *rides off into the red west' you get the idea.

I mean like, we tend to die a lot too. But at the moment, most machines don't last as long as us unless they are like bricks without many moving parts. That whole thing organics got going of 'you will be assimilated, become part of my form and contribute to the whole' for regenerating our material damage is a big one-up over machines currently.
 
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