no bigger ships than battleships

[Vasious]

How can we say "More classes needed" when we have not tried our selves and found out exactly how flexible in producing difference classes for different roles within each hull size is.

There are Numerous different sections for each hull size, and those options after difference for where they are on the ship.

So a Cruiser is not just a Cruiser, which is not just a Cruiser

 

[Exemplar Voss]

On the ship size, wouldn't a Dreadnaught be a battleship but bigger with bigger weapons, armor etc? Or if its not going to be called a Dreadnaught then a Super Battleship or a Super Carrier?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreadnought

Basically, dreadnoughts were a weird and not particularly practical pipedream, and not particularly distinct from the battleships and battlecruisers that followed them.
With the module system, cruisers and battleships particularly can be specialized as any of several traditional ship classes, depending on armament, special things (like fighter/bomber bays) and armor.

I have a strong feeling they won't actually end it. That was kind of the thing about 40k. Endless War, and it is set up thusly. It would be nice to see an end to the story but I don't think GW would allow itself to do that, it limits a lot of their lore.

Eh. They didn't have any problem pulling a 'Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies' on Warhammer Fantasy.
Given the current state of 40k (a hot mess), I could see it going either way, depending on how crazy the suits are feeling.

 

[TempusxX]

I have a strong feeling they won't actually end it. That was kind of the thing about 40k. Endless War, and it is set up thusly. It would be nice to see an end to the story but I don't think GW would allow itself to do that, it limits a lot of their lore.

That is up to GW I know but from what I've read on forums/sites that deals with 40K and GW, that GW has authorized the Authors to write about the End Time Event that GW is getting ready to release, which will more than likely change the 40K universe again the status quo


On the ship sizes here, will ever government type be able to get a bigger ship or ships or will that be only for one type of government?

 

[REDDQ]

For the record, I also agree that battleship (+1 bigger for people trying to overcompensate) is all Stellaris needs.

Way back in the day, 40k was written to be absurd. The players were not supposed to identify with any faction so much as to mock them for their ridiculousness. Because of this, everything was cartoonishly overstated.

Somewhere along the way, people forgot this and started taking it seriously. I blame Andy Chambers.

Imho treating the absurdness seriously is a significant part of having a good fun with that universe. Also you can't mock W40K... it is a heresy

On the ship size, wouldn't a Dreadnaught be a battleship but bigger with bigger weapons, armor etc? Or if its not going to be called a Dreadnought then a Super Battleship or a Super Carrier?

Pretty much. Name alone we owe to HMS Dreadnought which entered service in 1906. Although there were more ships with that name in Royal Navy that on rendered every other ship in the world useless and started the habit of naming every single similar warship with its name. But with time everything returned to normal, dreadnoughts became obsolete and even Yamato was called a mere battleship.

If, in Stellaris, there is a bigger class than battleship then "Dreadnaught" fits as for ship which is better than everything in its class.

 

[EleventhAvenue]

AFAIK, in general sci-fi-ship-terms, a ''dreadnought'' typically refers to a capital ship with a very high calibre armament, mirroring the ''all-big-gun'' thought that led to the RL Dreadnought. Also, I would hardly say that it obsoleted ''every other ship in the world''. It obsoleted earlier battleships in fighting battleships. It certainly didn't obsolete submarines, and it definitvely didn't obsolete destroyers and torpedo boats. Going all-big-gun has its prize...

I think in game terms, a ''Dreadnought'' would be represented as a battleship using modules that have a focus on Large weapon mounts.

 

[REDDQ]

AFAIK, in general sci-fi-ship-terms, a ''dreadnought'' typically refers to a capital ship with a very high calibre armament, mirroring the ''all-big-gun'' thought that led to the RL Dreadnought. Also, I would hardly say that it obsoleted ''every other ship in the world''. It obsoleted earlier battleships in fighting battleships. It certainly didn't obsolete submarines, and it definitvely didn't obsolete destroyers and torpedo boats. Going all-big-gun has its prize...

Obviously.

 

[SanguineGus]

He is wrong, link you posted proves that.

How do you figure? the phrase is fire and forget, not fire and maneuver with a joystick.

 

[Jean-Luc]

Size for the sake of size is pointless. You can always have a bigger "thing" and something that was big will seem small once you add 5 more things each bigger than the last. Same with adding more ship classes for the sake of adding more ship classes. Only way it's justified is if it brings some new gameplay elements or a distinctive feature.

 

[REDDQ]

How do you figure? the phrase is fire and forget, not fire and maneuver with a joystick.

Yeah but he is talking about completely automated drones using just radar and IFF system to wage wars. Stinger is a system where operator needs to get in good position, point launcher at target, get a lock on and finally decide whether to shoot. Sure you do not point missiles manually (there was one manpad with MCLOS guidance system, what a barrel of laughs it was) but it does not mean human touch is not mandatory. And so far there is not a single system that goes without it.

 

[KingRolan]

Size for the sake of size is pointless.

The Galactic Empire begs to differ.

 

[Vasious]

The Galactic Empire begs to differ.

Worked out three times so far.... oh wait

 

[lwarmonger]

Humans will always be a necessary component of warfare. Taking them out of spaceships designed to fight is a monumentally bad idea for three reasons.

First, machines would undoubtedly be better at the mathematical side of war (how to aim and fire projectiles or lasers, integrating missiles with jamming and chaff, etc). How those systems will be tactically employed and integrated with the numerous other systems to make a complete warfighting system oriented towards destroying what the enemy has available... short of a fully intelligent Artificial Intelligence with human like decision making capabilities (which creates the "kill all humans" issue) computers are just going to suck at that. They don't do open ended systems well, and war is so much more than mathematics.

Second, transmissions can be jammed. Drones can be co-opted from other signals. And even without that, you still have significant lag given the distances involved. That lag would preclude control from any human within a timespan that wouldn't result in the battle already being over by the time a decision was made.

Finally, machines break. A lot. And they are terrible at fixing themselves unless, once again, you're thinking of a human like AI. In that case I'm sure they will very efficiently fix themselves as they kill all humans.

Having humans on our warships "in real life" is very much not a waste of space.... unless you are the AI who has decided you don't need humans anymore.

 

[mocoman2001]

It is true that Venus would be livable if you stayed in the upper atmosphere, never went down to the surface, and remained inside an airtight environment at all times.

However, this rather defeats the point of living on a planet. If we wanted to live in airtight environments far away from the ground, we could live in space habitats.

The point is to not have all your eggs in one basket in case some thing happen to earth. I said Venus sucks, but at least its doable, unlike mars.

 

[mocoman2001]

True, what I mean is right now humans add value to a space mission.



You know what atmosphere is even better... earth. If it's not economical to build high-altitude habitats here it will -never- be a good idea in that caustic acidic, not magnetically shielded, permanent cyclone, death trap of a furnace planet

If you read what I said, you would see that I said it sucks, but unlike mars is an viable option if your goal is to not have all your eggs in one basket. As in if some thing happen to earth out of no ware, the human race would not go instinct with it.

 

[mocoman2001]

Because digging, processing and eventually hauling any resources on Mars will be easier, partially thanks to low gravity, which makes achieving escape velocity easier with less power required. Also if you have to live in contained spaces, you as well might do it on Mars where stable ground is at least available and in lower gravity construction is that much easier. Also sure, Mars' gravity ain't 1g but it is not 0g as well.

All that would be even easier in the asteroid belt, with robots. Why would we mine mars first, when we have an asteroid belt to mine.

 

[SanguineGus]

Whats a landmine though? That we havnt automated air defenses it is more a facet of dominating air space and being wary of an inevitable mistake, than any technological hurdle. Last I checked, idfs and mortars get detonated remotely and put on timers so that no one is around to be reprised against.

 

[Hanekem]

For the record, I also agree that battleship (+1 bigger for people trying to overcompensate) is all Stellaris needs.



Imho treating the absurdness seriously is a significant part of having a good fun with that universe. Also you can't mock W40K... it is a heresy


Pretty much. Name alone we owe to HMS Dreadnought which entered service in 1906. Although there were more ships with that name in Royal Navy that on rendered every other ship in the world useless and started the habit of naming every single similar warship with its name. But with time everything returned to normal, dreadnoughts became obsolete and even Yamato was called a mere battleship.

If, in Stellaris, there is a bigger class than battleship then "Dreadnaught" fits as for ship which is better than everything in its class.

Actually Dreadnought refers to all big gun Capital ships, the issue here was not that the designs stopped beign usefull, all WWII Fast Battleships can be qualified as Dreadnoughts or super dreadnoughts of some sort, the fact was the name stopped being used after the Washington Naval Treaty, and is probably a consequence of it, with the term Treaty battleship used instead to descrive the lesser ships built under the WNT limitations.

the Dreadnought as a concept became obsolete with the Carrier and sufficient mature naval planes appeared, those capable of carrying ordnance sufficient for destroying Dreadnoughts with reliability (so late 30's Early 40's)

 

[REDDQ]

All that would be even easier in the asteroid belt, with robots. Why would we mine mars first, when we have an asteroid belt to mine.

Because Mars is a planet. What kind of infrastructure do you wanna build on asteroids? Ideally we would haul them to our beautiful red planet for processing.

 

[sethfc]

AFAIK, in general sci-fi-ship-terms, a ''dreadnought'' typically refers to a capital ship with a very high calibre armament, mirroring the ''all-big-gun'' thought that led to the RL Dreadnought. Also, I would hardly say that it obsoleted ''every other ship in the world''. It obsoleted earlier battleships in fighting battleships. It certainly didn't obsolete submarines, and it definitvely didn't obsolete destroyers and torpedo boats. Going all-big-gun has its prize...

I think in game terms, a ''Dreadnought'' would be represented as a battleship using modules that have a focus on Large weapon mounts.

I think it'll be a military Junta 'super sized' battleship which represents it.

 

[Uhlume]

I have a strong feeling they won't actually end it. That was kind of the thing about 40k. Endless War, and it is set up thusly. It would be nice to see an end to the story but I don't think GW would allow itself to do that, it limits a lot of their lore.

The clock has been stuck at 1 minute to midnight for a very long time now, they have to push the story forward at some point.

In my opinion 40K is in decline anyway, right now the best game to play with the current ruleset is Forgeworlds Horus Heresy setting, 40K is a bit nuts with all the crazy formation nonsense going on.