Nippon's flag

[unmerged(9422)]

I would like to make a request here to Paradox about the Nipponese flag in Victoria:

In Europa Universalis II, the hinomaru flag is used for the shield. However, this flag was not made the national flag of Nippon until the Meiji Restoration.

( Europa Universalis II Nippon Shield:

)

So, it would be erroneous to use the hinomaru flag for Nippon prior to the Meiji Restoration. Perhaps the Tokugawa Family Mon could be used for Nippon while the Bakufu is still in power, to represent the Tokugawa Shouguns. Or also perhaps the Emperor's Flag could be used for Nippon's flag until Meiji Restoration (The Emperor had no power, but the Shouguns were theoriotically carrying out the will of the Emperor, so using the Emperor's flag could be fine as well).

I hope that this can be helpful to the developers.



Meiji-Tenno

 

[LordStark]

I agree that Bakufu Japan should use the Tokugawa family emblem.

 

[Gwalcmai]

It seems a lot of countries changed flags during this period. Maybe the solution would be a flag-changing command that you could use in events. That way, all the flag changes can be simulated. And maybe some ahistorical ones can happen too.

 

[PJL]

Actually, shouldn't the Emperor flag be used for Japan in the EU2 period if the current one wasn't used until the 1860's.

 

[unmerged(9422)]

Originally posted by PJL
Actually, shouldn't the Emperor flag be used for Japan in the EU2 period if the current one wasn't used until the 1860's.

Yes, you are correct: The Emperor's flag would probably be the best suited for that time period. Or it could switch from the Ashikaga Mon to whoever family wins the Warring States Period's Mon (Mori, Tokugawa, Uesugi, etc.). So, I think Emperor's flag would be best in EUII time period perhaps, and then in Victoria, Tokugawa family Mon could be used until (if ) the Tokugawa Bakufu falls (And there is Meiji Restoration; then the hinomaru flag would become the national flag).


Meiji-Tenno

 

[unmerged(6160)]

I would use Tokugawa family emblem until the Restoration because it is more historical.

 

[Stingray]

I would use Tokugawa family emblem until the Restoration because it is more historical.

I would like it just because it looks better.

 

[unmerged(5664)]

There is no easy way to change flags in the EU engine (at least so far). Plus the more flags there are, the more flags need to be graphically designed.

I'm not sure how realistic it will be to have every country's flag change all the time just to mirror real life...

 

[Vulture]

Originally posted by BarristerBoy
There is no easy way to change flags in the EU engine (at least so far). Plus the more flags there are, the more flags need to be graphically designed.

I'm not sure how realistic it will be to have every country's flag change all the time just to mirror real life...

It sure would add flavour

 

[unmerged(10945)]

I can't imagine it would be that hard to do, considering all the other much more extensive editing to the core engine going on. I obviously don't know game coding though, so I might be way off on this.

 

[unmerged(7537)]

There was a command in EU2 that would change the English flag to the Union Jack and the French fleur de lis to the Tricouleur.

So I don't see why changing flags via events shouldn't be possible in Vicky.

 

[LordStark]

Originally posted by BarristerBoy
There is no easy way to change flags in the EU engine (at least so far). Plus the more flags there are, the more flags need to be graphically designed.

I'm not sure how realistic it will be to have every country's flag change all the time just to mirror real life...

Its really not a minor issue. Giving Bakufu Japan the Meiji flag is like giving the 1867 Canada the current Canadian flag.

 

[Gwalcmai]

And imagine the Bolshevics flying the czar's colours. And the US flag kept changing, didn't it? Maybe in the US case changes were minor, but other cases give weird results, like a country turning republican and still flying the king's family colours.

 

[unmerged(10945)]

Originally posted by Gwalcmai
And imagine the Bolshevics flying the czar's colours. And the US flag kept changing, didn't it? Maybe in the US case changes were minor, but other cases give weird results, like a country turning republican and still flying the king's family colours.

I'm going to take a stab at a guess here and say that Imperial Russia, the Bolshviek rebels, and the USSR will be 3 different tags. If the Russian civil war is modeled realistically, there will be even more rebels than that in the area though.

 

[Aetius]

Are you really sure about the flag? The Tokugawa's decided that the Hinomaru should be used as the naval flag in the 1850s so it obviously was considered as a "national" flag before the Meiji Restoration.
AFAIK it had been used for a long time, even if the concept of an offical National flag didn't exist until later. I am pretty sure the Ashikaga used it as well.

I mean, in theory, Kyoto is still the official capital since it never was officially changed to Tokyo. The official residence of the emperor moved but not the capital itself.

The Imperial mon is more appropriate as crest rather than a national flag IMO.

 

[unmerged(9422)]

Originally posted by Aetius
Are you really sure about the flag? The Tokugawa's decided that the Hinomaru should be used as the naval flag in the 1850s so it obviously was considered as a "national" flag before the Meiji Restoration.
AFAIK it had been used for a long time, even if the concept of an offical National flag didn't exist until later. I am pretty sure the Ashikaga used it as well.

I mean, in theory, Kyoto is still the official capital since it never was officially changed to Tokyo. The official residence of the emperor moved but not the capital itself.

The Imperial mon is more appropriate as crest rather than a national flag IMO.

I know what you mean: Hinomaru was used during the Tokugawa Period on merchant shipping, but still it was not the "national flag". So I thought that perhaps the Tokugawa mon, or Imperial mon would be more appropriate until after Meiji Restoration. Perhaps if navies and armies can have different flags, Japanese ships could have Hinomaru, and armies could have Tokugawa or Imperial mon. (Actually, this idea could be useful for Russia as well: Didn't the Russian navy use what is now the modern Russian flag today, and the armies used something different? And also maybe after Meiji Restoration, Japan's armies could use hinomaru, and the navy could use the Naval Ensign )

So, yes I know the hinomaru flag is old, but I was just thinking that the other flag ideas I thought of could be better. As for Ashikaga usage of it, I believe I have seen something that the Ashikaga have used it for, but I am not completely sure of what or when or where. However, I know that some Sengoku daimyo had the hinomaru used as a symbol, such as on their armor or helmets.

I guess then that the hinomaru flag could be used as the national flag (before Meiji Restoration), but I think that Tokugawa or Imperial mon's should be used then, and after Meiji Restoration then the hinomaru could be used, as it was then that hinomaru really became a "national flag". As for which of these should be used during Bakufu era, I think I would agree with you with Imperial Mon being used.

I was not trying to say that hinomaru was not old, but more that I think during Bakufu time, Japan should use the flag of Tokugawa Mon or Imperial Mon. Japan did not have an official national flag at these times, so there is not really an official one to use (Until Meiji Restoration when hinomaru is declared the national flag). So, one has a choice of choosing what the national flag should be, "Should it be hinomaru? Or should it be something else?". I think best suited until hinomaru is declared national flag would probably be Imperial or Tokugawa mon.



Meiji-Tenno

 

[Aetius]

The problem is that the Mon are symbols of families rather than symbols of an area (as far as I know). There was no Mon for Satsuma, only for the Shimazu family. The Mon of Imperial Family could be used at all times, since in theory the Emperor was the leader of country even during the Tokugawa era. The Emperor was after all the origin of all the Japanese according to tradition.

 

[unmerged(9422)]

Originally posted by Aetius
The problem is that the Mon are symbols of families rather than symbols of an area (as far as I know). There was no Mon for Satsuma, only for the Shimazu family. The Mon of Imperial Family could be used at all times, since in theory the Emperor was the leader of country even during the Tokugawa era. The Emperor was after all the origin of all the Japanese according to tradition.

Yes, I know what you mean. I also have found that a problem. I mentioned Tokugawa mon, as it could be used since they were the Shoguns. But I think the Imperial Mon would be used best as the Emperor was still theoriotically the ruler of Japan, the Shougun only carrying out his will. Therefore it would be the best used for the time.

I think that the Emperor's flag should be used in whole game until Meiji Restoration. But I think that hinomaru should then be used after Meiji Restoration and its declaration as national flag.

 

[unmerged(5664)]

Originally posted by Tambourmajor
There was a command in EU2 that would change the English flag to the Union Jack and the French fleur de lis to the Tricouleur.

So I don't see why changing flags via events shouldn't be possible in Vicky.

But those were specific one-off codes - there is no general command to change flags...

 

[Vulture]

Originally posted by BarristerBoy
But those were specific one-off codes - there is no general command to change flags...

Correct they were to, so-called flags... Those flags could be used though to change flags for other countries. But that was quite a procedure: let another country use FRA or ENG tags, then change ENG and FRA shield/flag sets to the desired new one and OFF YOU GO