Nineteen Sixty-Four mod (Democracy's Last Legs)

[Zzzzz...]

Status: I'm nearly done with the techteams from AOD. I'll soon start working the techtree and the OOBs.

Romania and Hungary are in a deep conflict over Northern Transylvania, though, so I don't see such an alliance happening. I don't quite see why the Soviets would attack Germany and risk a global nuclear war over Germany invading two relatively small countries. It's not like Germany couldn't respond to the Soviet attack swiftly even with the invasion of Romania-Hungary taking place, plus, they have Russia on their side too. I was hoping the Axis-Soviet Union war would commence through more relevant events, like the Soviet Union or Russia trying to reclaim the others' territory.

Z, what's your opinion on this?

The Soviets wouldn't bother on a minor issue on what's clearly under Axis sphere. They are also busy with the Pacific War. Not to mention, the massive USSR must be suffering on the division of direction. Should we stay on an Asian-oriented domination or go Revanchism? So, the Soviets, until Beria dies and it breaks off, won't cross the Urals that instantly.
I'm not confident on the idea that Germany is eager to invade (the choice is fine though), and it's a buzzkill for the player (either ROM or HUN) if Germany invaded both countries, gameplay speaking.

A question on what's going to happened if Hungary wins. What does Hungary gets?

Heh, I haven't even read much about it. Apparently it's a stalemate in Vietnam and the invasion of Japan isn't going so well?

The Soviets were kicked out of Australia, stalemate on Japan, Philippines and on Vietnam. It's a classic British V France struggle where one can't beat one of land and the other on sea.
I think I'll be making the Pacific War exit event chain.

I'll put the requirements on C-PACT controlling Philippine and Japanese VP provinces AND SOV controlling Hanoi and Saigon.

Also, Finland is supposed to be commie, right? I should change the FIN tag with that of communist Finland.

Yes. But I didn't know that we have a Commie Finland tag.

--------------------------

Suggestions:

Also, I am considering another flashpoint on Panama and/or Venezuela leading into a possible war between C-Pact and the Latin Fascists. I'll probably make this but I'm just putting this up here.

Minor events on occupied Brazil making them speak Spanish?

Minor events for Finland and Persia giving them buffs on their military. Finland is the Israel of this timeline, and Persia must protect itself from the Reds.

So, inspired by Gupka's suggestion to let the player decide what will happen to Germany's eastern dominions, depending on what option is chosen, this will happen:

Sounds neat. Add another event/decision in the chain where Finland gives assistance to the rebels.

 

[UNSC Trooper]

I'm not confident on the idea that Germany is eager to invade (the choice is fine though), and it's a buzzkill for the player (either ROM or HUN) if Germany invaded both countries, gameplay speaking.

Indeed. I'll only include it to satisfy the need for variety, with a very, VERY low chance. I'm talking about 1% low.

A question on what's going to happened if Hungary wins. What does Hungary gets?

Entire Transylvania.

Yes. But I didn't know that we have a Commie Finland tag.

It seems there's a commie equivalent for almost every country in revolt.txt.

COMMIES, COMMIES EVERYWHERE! [/McCarthy]

Also, I am considering another flashpoint on Panama and/or Venezuela leading into a possible war between C-Pact
and the Latin Fascists. I'll probably make this but I'm just putting this up here.

The description I wrote for Argentina contains something similar. It's up to you if you want to incorporate any of this, though.

ARG_DESC;Argentina joined the Second World War with ambitious plans paralleled only by its main European ally and world power, Germany - namely, complete political and military domination of their home continent. Through its entry into the Axis, Argentina exposed herself to a looming two-front war against Chile and Brazil. The year 1944 marked the beginning of Argentina's nightmare. With Chile neutral, Argentina was capable of driving back the Brazilian invasion beyond Porto Alegre. Despite Britain aiding Brazil, the frontline moved steadily towards the tropical jungles and Brazil soon succumbed to Argentine military superiority in September 1949, with Chile following a day later. In 1957, with Juan Peron - the highly acclaimed and nationally-supported fighter for social justice - leading Argentina, and the military's morale in perfect shape after the strategic victories of 1945-1949, Argentina pushed for the oil-rich regions of Venezuela. American resistance stopped the Argentine thrust short of the oil, however, and the two combatants returned to the status-quo ante-bellum. In 1964, the country seems to have hit a level of prosperity and power unprecedented in South American history. While the home front seems tranquil enough for the time being, an increasing gap is forming between pro-war political circles who would push for an assault on Central America to avenge the stalemate of the Venezuelan war, and the dove lobby. Will Argentina settle for its gains from the Second World War? Will it leave what is at home seen as a no longer necessary allegiance to the Axis, or will it pursue its anti-Chicago Pact, anti-Comintern stance further and aim for conquest of Central America despite having to face the same hardened American troops that sent it packing from Venezuela and almost certainly locking it and the US in total war?

Minor events on occupied Brazil making them speak Spanish?

Sounds good.

Minor events for Finland and Persia giving them buffs on their military. Finland is the Israel of this timeline, and Persia must protect itself from the Reds.

Also good.

Sounds neat. Add another event/decision in the chain where Finland gives assistance to the rebels.

I thought about that, but Finland's in the Comintern, so the Soviets would be pulled in. Is it okay if I just had the Soviets guarantee Finland's independence so they can help out the Baltic commies?

 

[Zzzzz...]

I thought about that, but Finland's in the Comintern, so the Soviets would be pulled in. Is it okay if I just had the Soviets guarantee Finland's independence so they can help out the Baltic commies?

I was thinking more like the Spanish Civil War events where outside powers can contribute on the war. So Finland would lose supplies/manpower (volunteers and military aid), and Baltics would gain free units and supplies (maybe blueprints?). And an open war with GER would basically erase Finland.

If you want to extend the event chain on the possibility of pulling Finland into war, that's up to you. We'll just edit them if they were out of control or needs redesigning.

 

[Gukpa]

I from Brazil,and I say : If Argentina invade us,will be easy to occupy,but will take 1000 years to make us convert to Spanish,because Brazil have much MORE population than Argentine.

 

[UNSC Trooper]

I was thinking more like the Spanish Civil War events where outside powers can contribute on the war. So Finland would lose supplies/manpower (volunteers and military aid), and Baltics would gain free units and supplies (maybe blueprints?). And an open war with GER would basically erase Finland.

That's actually a better idea, yeah. One question: do the supplies and manpower REALLY get transferred to the nation you're helping out, or do they just disappear for the nation sending them?

One more question: what does "OOB" consist of? The units that the nations start with?

And happy new year.

 

[warpedmind]

That's actually a better idea, yeah. One question: do the supplies and manpower REALLY get transferred to the nation you're helping out, or do they just disappear for the nation sending them?

One more question: what does "OOB" consist of? The units that the nations start with?

And happy new year.

happy new year !

and iirc OOB consists of all starting units from the army, airforce and navy (mostly tied to historical numbers)

 

[UNSC Trooper]

I see, thanks.

 

[dragon1990]

Has firestorm replied, if not im actually a friend of his, ill link him to this thread next time hes on steam.

 

[Zzzzz...]

That's actually a better idea, yeah. One question: do the supplies and manpower REALLY get transferred to the nation you're helping out, or do they just disappear for the nation sending them?

The principle goes that one event for decreasing stuffs from the donating nation. And then one more event for the receiving nation, increasing stuffs. There's no actually transfer.

And happy new year.

Happy New Year!

Has firestorm replied, if not im actually a friend of his, ill link him to this thread next time hes on steam.

Not yet. That will be brilliant, please do.

 

[Ithron]

That event about Baltic Socialist state is..well, bizarre . I mean, Baltic urban population before 1st world war was definitely left-leaning. But any possibilities for "huge support for communism" were completely lost during independence wars, when communists attacked the Baltic states. From bad it went to worse when the "Year of Terror" happened in 1940-1941, when USSR occupied and deported, terrorized Baltic population. And, in 1941 almost all, who had any significant connections with USSR and communism, fled from the incoming Germans. So.. to see Baltic population giving any significant positive attitude towards the beaten and ideologically bankrupt Communism in 1964 is.. bizarre, its on the level of soft sci-fi . USSR leadership would have to pull out some fantastically appealing messages to those who basically hate them to get them on their side - while not giving any significant support at the same time (except some bits from Finland). So, nationalist uprising? Yes, definitely possible. After all, thats what happened IRL - guerilla war against USSR went for years. The idea that Baltic people might try to operate in a well-integrated fashion, on a federative level, while appealing, also is quite sci-fi. However, since Germans in this mod have organized united Baltic state themselves already, then maybe this aspect is less unlikely. At the same time, the fact that Finland is communist, would indeed somewhat - but far from enough - soften Baltic people's hearts towards communism, after all, Finland was conquered by communism, not chose it itself.

From historical perspective, Germans would probably be fine with independent Estonia (not at once, but with political pressure and in time..). Also, abit less likely, but still, it might be fine with independent Latvia. However, the least likely is independent Lithuania. There were "racial reasons" for disliking Lithuanians, almost as much as Polish. So, altogether, its possible that Germans might allow independent Baltic State through diplomatic means alone, but maybe in return it would demand "ideological conscessions", meaning, Baltics would have to "de-slavitize" (??) the Lithuanians (lets say, loose Lithuanian cores for 15 years) or maybe - gain independence, but leave part or whole of Lithuania with Germany.

Otherwise, I'm very glad to see this mod getting ported to DH, it might be the reason I start playing DH again .

 

[Gukpa]

My baltic friend,but Germany wanna to retake baltics,remember the Teutonic order?In the past germans controlled Baltics,and I don't believe in the Reich Giving up this possibilities.And have the general plan ost too. :closedeyes:
BUt the rest is a good idea,because Soviet Uprising are strange My great-grandmother flee from Lithuania when the soviets invaded.

 

[Gukpa]

About making Brazilians speak Spanish...Impossible...To you can make this you need a nation with 4 times more population.And Argentina have only 21 million people,Brazil in 1964 have 90 million!

 

[UNSC Trooper]

On second thought, it is kind of a shitty idea. I know the Baltic countries were deeply anti-communist, being right next to the Soviet empire (just like Romania), and Latvians were even recruited into the Waffen-SS, the Baltics as a whole thought of the Germans as liberators, similar to the Ukrainians. A nationalist uprising makes more sense, since, if I'm not mistaking, there were partisan units in the Baltic fighting both Germans and Russians, especially after 1943.

Well, the reason I chose communism for the Baltic is for the shock value of having Bolsheviks pop up in a Fascist-dominated Europe, where I imagine communism would become a bit more attractive for the countries under German occupation. But where the population was and remains anti-communist, it doesn't make much sense. It's like Romanians starting to like Communism after Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina were taken from them by the bolshies. So yeah, this is a dumb idea and I think I'm going to go with a nationalist uprising. I'm going to have Estonia and Latvia rebel separately and form an alliance. When the Germans/Axis defeats them, there'll be an option to either liberate them as puppets or independents, or further integrate the Baltic countries into the German Reich, hence, into the German race. IIRC, the Nazis thought of the Baltic race as valuable and Germanizable, so, as Gukpa says, the Reich wouldn't be too happy to lose these lands.

 

[Gukpa]

On second thought, it is kind of a shitty idea. I know the Baltic countries were deeply anti-communist, being right next to the Soviet empire (just like Romania), and Latvians were even recruited into the Waffen-SS, the Baltics as a whole thought of the Germans as liberators, similar to the Ukrainians. A nationalist uprising makes more sense, since, if I'm not mistaking, there were partisan units in the Baltic fighting both Germans and Russians, especially after 1943.

Well, the reason I chose communism for the Baltic is for the shock value of having Bolsheviks pop up in a Fascist-dominated Europe, where I imagine communism would become a bit more attractive for the countries under German occupation. But where the population was and remains anti-communist, it doesn't make much sense. It's like Romanians starting to like Communism after Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina were taken from them by the bolshies. So yeah, this is a dumb idea and I think I'm going to go with a nationalist uprising. I'm going to have Estonia and Latvia rebel separately and form an alliance. When the Germans/Axis defeats them, there'll be an option to either liberate them as puppets or independents, or further integrate the Baltic countries into the German Reich, hence, into the German race. IIRC, the Nazis thought of the Baltic race as valuable and Germanizable, so, as Gukpa says, the Reich wouldn't be too happy to lose these lands.

You convinced me :S

 

[Ithron]

Indeed, pro-communist popular Baltic uprising, is well..sci-fi.
Baltic people in Waffen-SS, abit of history (sorry ): they agreed to be there ONLY as long as German officers at least tolerated the fact that Baltic soldiers are fighting for themselves, that for them, "loyalty" to Nazi Germany means nothing, that for them Waffen-SS is nothing more then "pre-national" military forces, that they will form as soon as Germans and Soviets are too weak to stop it - exactly as it was in WW1. German officers wrote these observations in their reports that Baltic soldiers are fighting for Germany only as long as it goes with their own goals. After all, Hitler even clearly stated that Baltic people should not carry any arms at all, but well.. German officers found ways around it.
What you wrote about national partisans - absolutely correct. Post-1943 there were partisan units fighting against both Germans and Communists (and sent-in Communist "partisans"). Communists had no locally formed partisan units, they were all sent-in from abroad. As time went on, armed resistance against Germans only increased. So, in 1964 there probably should be second or third uprising already - unless Germans would do as USSR did: heavily, heavily militarize all region, thoroughly explore all forests (that alone was a huge task) and organize forces for brutal retribution plus organize transfer of population. Even with all that, it took many years and mass pardons after death of Stalin to stop Forest brothers movement. I assume, victorious Germany would have some difficulties with moving their own population as freely as USSR did, after all, personal freedom for Germans was not as restricted as it was for USSR citizens, so, Hitler's dreams of "populating" conquered regions would probably cost a huge fortune (that, as far as I've read, soon to be bankrupt Nazi German economy could probably not really afford) because citizens would have to be motivated via expensive not just birocratical means. Also, while USSR population itself WANTED to move to Baltic countries, I doubt many Germans would want to move from Germany to war-wearied regions in the east.

So, in this mod, the way I see it:
Germany itself probably has some inner support for letting Baltic countries go. Already in 1939-1940 IRL it realized that actually, in situation when global market for Germany is closed, independent but economically integrated into German economics Baltic countries are a very nice outer market, even if its not that big. Historically, this was known by Baltic politicians as well, and in 1939, after signing ultimatums of base treaties with USSR, Baltic politicians tried to sell the idea of independent Baltic countries to Germany by offering lucrative trade treaties. Unfortunately, USSR didn't really care for Germany's opinion on Baltics any longer.

So, for the mod this means:
- Germany has a chance of letting go either all Ostland independent (and then, if it has inner political problems, allow or forbid it to split into 3 states). However, this probably should happen only if Uprising hasn't happened yet, because if actual military confrontation has started, Germany will not want to appear weak and will crush it and allow peaceful separation only years later;
- let go individual Baltic states (all or keep Lithuanian lands for Germany?);
- let go Ostland that has everything north of river Daugava (north-eastern Latvia and Estonia) plus the eastern few Russian provinces that Ostland had but keep south-western Latvia and Lithuania within Germany (such division of Baltic countries was included in earlier versions of Molotov-Ribbentrop pact);
- change nothing thus allowing Uprising to happen, deal with it almost certainly via military means.

If Ostland goes free, it probably should change its name to Baltic Federation or some variation of it (maybe some Germanized version of that ). It might be interesting for a free Baltic Federation to "itch" and push Germany towards war with Finland, afterwards attempting to integrate Finland into Baltic Federation (only with Germany's blessing of course).

Keep up the good work!

 

[Zzzzz...]

If Ostland goes free, it probably should change its name to Baltic Federation or some variation of it (maybe some Germanized version of that ). It might be interesting for a free Baltic Federation to "itch" and push Germany towards war with Finland, afterwards attempting to integrate Finland into Baltic Federation (only with Germany's blessing of course).

Nuh-uh. Scandinavia would like to have a word with that.

 

[Gukpa]

Nuh-uh. Scandinavia would like to have a word with that.

Integrated Finland in Baltics?Please,kill me,I don't wanna to live in earth anymore.

 

[Ithron]

Well, it was less outlandish idea then commy-happy Baltics

Bunch of serious and less serious justification for my proposition: Ostland should be even more interested in non-communist Finland then Germany, plus, such a plan would show Ostland/Baltic Federation as a truly independent, self-thinking international actor. Plus, any kind of full-scale serious action would anyway be mostly done by Germany. Plus, Ostland/Baltic Federation would thus show that it can initiate and finish de-communisation of Europe that Germany itself failed to do. Plus, Finland itself should be pretty poor and economically desperate (very isolated, harboring hundreds of thousands of Red troops? Thats indeed, North Korea) place - so, what better way for a new country to shine than to "bring light to those suffering under communism". Plus, Germany would be glad to further add additional de-stabilizators in the foundation of this new Baltic Federation state, since, already having three Baltic nationalities in one country would be - at least for a democracy - a difficult though probably doable task to achieve. For Germany, any kind of making and supporting new political constructs would mean helping the potentially unstable to continue being potentially unstable - which by the way is quite similar to what Hitler wanted - to have so unstable international situation that Germany would always be able to do what it wants and others would always have to rely on it (one historian calls this goal approximately - "having war-peace situation where anyone can be attacked without any consequences, with all international relations deconstructed to chaotic uncertainty"). Adding Finnish (well, lets not forget that Ostland also had bunch of Russian provinces, right...) to the bunch would possibly de-stabilize the country to the point where with some additional crisises, it would have to rely on Germany to continue its existence - thus, for Germany thats a good thing (lets say in-game that could be a random event were in case of high dissent it has to become puppet of Germany, thus re-starting again the independence event chain?). Not because Baltic and Finnish people would like to kill one another (although, probably also Yugoslavian people in 20-30s couldn't imagine 40s and 90s...), but just because of too much complexity for compromising the varied needs and stability in such cases can come only through many many decades or centuries. And especially for the reasons of having authoritarian Germany on its neighborhood, such a country would probably never have chance of surviving as full democracy or at least, it probably wouldn't survive the *transition* to full democracy - so, it would have to ideologically always be close to German camp. Plus, Germany would then not have to finance the re-construction of Finland (yea, we don't have such mechanisms in-game, but I'm looking for justifications ). And finally, that would be a rare pro-Baltic Balto-wank and that would warm my heart nicely .

And, adding some more bits to the chaotic recipe: in 1920 there was Bulduri Conference in Jūrmala, Latvia, where Baltics+Finland+Polish+ observers from Great Britain, Ukraine, Belarus and France participated. Besides many ideas about many kinds of cooperation between Baltics-Finland-Poland there also appeared (very, very unspecific and very briefly) idea about creating in future "Baltic Confederation". Thats basically on what I'm basing this proposition.

As for Scandinavia: well, there's only isolated Sweden left in this storyline, right? And what exactly could it say, if it wants to stay out of Germany's sphere of influence?

And, in addition, for something completely different: I've read in some places (don't remember specifics..) that with victorious Germany, its economic model would anyway lead to bankruptcy and stagnation. As soon as there would be no new foreign central banks to plunder and inner reserves where already low in 30s, then stagnation and steps towards either more USSR style command-economy (probably impossible, since Nazism did tolerate private property and elements of free market) or towards less militarized and less regulated economy (lets say like modern Belarus? Partially free market?) would have to be taken for a stable long-term economic system. I'm writing this because all this would be really, really nice to see in-mod, since..fine, you're playing the great and victorious Germany..now, here's bunch of headaches for you..

 

[UNSC Trooper]

So, for the mod this means:
- Germany has a chance of letting go either all Ostland independent (and then, if it has inner political problems, allow or forbid it to split into 3 states). However, this probably should happen only if Uprising hasn't happened yet, because if actual military confrontation has started, Germany will not want to appear weak and will crush it and allow peaceful separation only years later;
- let go individual Baltic states (all or keep Lithuanian lands for Germany?);
- let go Ostland that has everything north of river Daugava (north-eastern Latvia and Estonia) plus the eastern few Russian provinces that Ostland had but keep south-western Latvia and Lithuania within Germany (such division of Baltic countries was included in earlier versions of Molotov-Ribbentrop pact);
- change nothing thus allowing Uprising to happen, deal with it almost certainly via military means.

If Ostland goes free, it probably should change its name to Baltic Federation or some variation of it (maybe some Germanized version of that ). It might be interesting for a free Baltic Federation to "itch" and push Germany towards war with Finland, afterwards attempting to integrate Finland into Baltic Federation (only with Germany's blessing of course).

I like the idea of letting go of Ostland (as a Reichskommissariat or a Baltic confederation), but I'm more keen on letting the uprising happen, then liberate Ostland or independent states as puppets. I also like your idea of having the Baltics push for a conflict with Finland out of anti-communism. I'll look at more of your suggestions and see how to work them in. Thanks a lot for your input.

On a different note, we should make Alessandro Pavolini the new Duce of Italy.

Idea for new conflict: Greek rebellion against Italy and Bulgaria/or severe partisan problems for both of them.

 

[Gukpa]

I like the idea of letting go of Ostland (as a Reichskommissariat or a Baltic confederation), but I'm more keen on letting the uprising happen, then liberate Ostland or independent states as puppets. I also like your idea of having the Baltics push for a conflict with Finland out of anti-communism. I'll look at more of your suggestions and see how to work them in. Thanks a lot for your input.

On a different note, we should make Alessandro Pavolini the new Duce of Italy.

Idea for new conflict: Greek rebellion against Italy and Bulgaria/or severe partisan problems for both of them.

Make this:

Liberate Ostland :20%
Liberate baltics :20
Liberate Free countries :10%
Integrated in the REICH :50%