Nice Vikings!

[unmerged(5678)]

Originally posted by Malthus
Spoil my fun rant with *facts*, will you?

Ah well - maybe I will not get to see Top Cat's head explode.

I know, I know….but I just can’t watch a “political correctness” story go by without debunking it. It’s a compulsion – some people do bubble wrap, I do PC stories…

 

[unmerged(4755)]

Hopefull Vandelay will come by - and I will notify the resident expert on Vikings on the French Forum, Sire Philippe...but

I seem to remember, when we hosted the exhibit at the museum where I work about the Vikings, that the violence and pillaging was overdone precisely because the primary victims of the Vikings were the rich monasteries of Northern Europe, those who precisely were writing the chronicles we are basing our history on.

So before judging the dumbing down of history, I will wait to see if it is not I who is judging the Vikings with obsolete interpretations being replaced in children's book with more current approaches.

 

[WhiteHojo]

Originally posted by Malthus
"Danes [who]... were much better at trading than Saxons"

yep - it's a fact

"Give me your goats, women & possessions and in exchange I won't split your head open with this axe" -- hard to argue with that offer

 

[unmerged(11920)]

Originally posted by Oexmelin

I seem to remember, when we hosted the exhibit at the museum where I work about the Vikings, that the violence and pillaging was overdone precisely because the primary victims of the Vikings were the rich monasteries of Northern Europe, those who precisely were writing the chronicles we are basing our history on.

I bet that the overrated rumours of violence always worked in the Vikings favour in their trading ventures.

 

[unmerged(11920)]

Re: Re: Nice Vikings!

Originally posted by WhiteHojo
yep - it's a fact

"Give me your goats, women & possessions and in exchange I won't split your head open with this axe" -- hard to argue with that offer

Still works like that today... but usally without so much blood and gore

 

[Malthus]

Originally posted by Oexmelin
Hopefull Vandelay will come by - and I will notify the resident expert on Vikings on the French Forum, Sire Philippe...but

I seem to remember, when we hosted the exhibit at the museum where I work about the Vikings, that the violence and pillaging was overdone precisely because the primary victims of the Vikings were the rich monasteries of Northern Europe, those who precisely were writing the chronicles we are basing our history on.

So before judging the dumbing down of history, I will wait to see if it is not I who is judging the Vikings with obsolete interpretations being replaced in children's book with more current approaches.

Well, I get my impression of Vikings from the Sagas - about charming guys like Harald Hadralada, & the other sagas, which mostly survived in Iceland - a fun-loving crew they were.

 

[unmerged(4755)]

Originally posted by Malthus
Well, I get my impression of Vikings from the Sagas - about charming guys like Harald Hadralada, & the other sagas, which mostly survived in Iceland - a fun-loving crew they were.

Well, I certainly do not rely on "La Chanson de Roland" for my impression of Charlemagne's France...

 

[Richard Hakluyt]

I just quizzed my 8-yr old son:-

Q. Know anything about the Vikings then?


A. I know they were very tough once. They kept on raiding the Saxon villages and wanted to conquer Britain, but they were stopped in Wessex.

 

[WhiteHojo]

I'm afraid of what a US 8 yr old would say to that quiz:

Q: Know anything about Vikings?

A: yeah, they're the NFL team from Minnesota... Randy Moss - he's my idol - man can he catch... they can never win the big one though.

I don't know whether I should laugh or cry

 

[Malthus]

Originally posted by Oexmelin
Well, I certainly do not rely on "La Chanson de Roland" for my impression of Charlemagne's France...

In all seriousness, you can learn a lot about a culture by reading their semi-mythologized history - at least, around the time it was written. I believe that "La Chanson de Roland" was written much later than Charlamagne's time - but it will say a lot about the noble culture of France at the time when it was written, particularly what values they had and what they approved of.

Same with the Sagas - they may not be disinterested history (though they may be better in this respect than the Chanson), but they certainly provide clues as to what the writers of the Sagas admired and found praiseworthy.

 

[unmerged(11920)]

Just curious, but do you Brittish consider the Vikings and the Normans as the same power?

 

[unmerged(4755)]

Yes, of course: this is why "La Chanson" is a fascinating text to read (about 100 Franks defeating thousands of Sarraceans and "Vascons"; knights cutting the opponents in half, and the horse beneath them...). This is why I find isolating Viking violence in a violent society based on sagas is perhaps too simple.

But the Viking saga *also* tell us a lot about what the Viking thought about women, and in that regard, it seems they were perhaps apart from other Europeans of the time. (Many, many roles of "strong" women). Pity it does not make it to schooltexts...

 

[Vandelay]

Well, there has been a shift in emphasis in the Viking narrative (look, dad, I can speak po-mo!) from the warrior/ raider to the farmer/ trader/ colonist. In Sweden at least partially as a well-meaning (though perhaps misguided) attempt to neutralize the adoption of runes and Viking style art by the Neonazi movement.

However, recent excavations at Birka have focused on the fortifications and the warrior´s halls and just recently a very good thesis was presented by Neil Price "The Viking Way. Religion and War in Late Iron Age Scandinavia" so the warrior aspect is still there.

Malthus, the Sagas tell more of 13th century Iceland than 9th century Iceland - read with care. [EDIT: Sorry, didn´t read your most recent post - I obviously didn´t need to tell you that...]

It is interesting though that an entire era is dubbed after the Vikings as they were very much a miniscule minority in Scandinavaian society at the time - it´s like calling the Roman era the Legionnaire Age.

Cheers,
Vandelay

 

[peo]

The Vikings was as brutal and evil as all other medivel people.
Most of them were traders, but if they saw a place that were wealthy and easily raided they raided it.
Just becouse they didin't make an exemption for churces doesn't make them any different than anyone else.

 

[Malthus]

Originally posted by Vandelay
Well, there has been a shift in emphasis in the Viking narrative (look, dad, I can speak po-mo!) from the warrior/ raider to the farmer/ trader/ colonist. In Sweden at least partially as a well-meaning (though perhaps misguided) attempt to neutralize the adoption of runes and Viking style art by the Neonazi movement.

However, recent excavations at Birka have focused on the fortifications and the warrior´s halls and just recently a very good thesis was presented by Neil Price "The Viking Way. Religion and War in Late Iron Age Scandinavia" so the warrior aspect is still there.

Malthus, the Sagas tell more of 13th century Iceland than 9th century Iceland - read with care. [EDIT: Sorry, didn´t read your most recent post - I obviously didn´t need to tell you that...]

It is interesting though that an entire era is dubbed after the Vikings as they were very much a miniscule minority in Scandinavaian society at the time - it´s like calling the Roman era the Legionnaire Age.

Cheers,
Vandelay

I always thought of Harald Hadralada as a "Viking", and he's a 11th century guy ... got his "six feet of good English soil (or a bit more, being above the height of common man)" in 1066 ...

But I fully take your point - the Sagas can only tell you about what the *writers* found significant. However, I do not imagine that 13th century writers/redactors were *more* violent than their forefathers and foremothers (never forgetting that it was a woman, whose name escapes me, who fought off the scraelings in the Vinland colony when the men turned to run!)

Which beings me to another question - when did the "Viking era" end? Was Harald the "last of the Vikings"?

 

[Malthus]

Originally posted by Oexmelin
Yes, of course: this is why "La Chanson" is a fascinating text to read (about 100 Franks defeating thousands of Sarraceans and "Vascons"; knights cutting the opponents in half, and the horse beneath them...). This is why I find isolating Viking violence in a violent society based on sagas is perhaps too simple.

But the Viking saga *also* tell us a lot about what the Viking thought about women, and in that regard, it seems they were perhaps apart from other Europeans of the time. (Many, many roles of "strong" women). Pity it does not make it to schooltexts...

Actually, it seems a common feature of "warrior societies" with a relatively low centralization that the role of woman is considerably more emphasized - I was most surprised when I read the "Secret History" of the Mongols, that Mongol women often held very strong positions. This runs contrary to the stereotype. Even Ghenghis openly said that the only person in his life who he was actually afraid of was his mother ...

 

[Vandelay]

However, I do not imagine that 13th century writers/redactors were *more* violent than their forefathers and foremothers

They were probably equally violent I´d guess - early medieval Christianity was hardly less martial than the ideologies it replaced.

I think it could be argued that the 13th century writers portrayed their heathen forebears as more violent, and with more independent women, in order to contrast that behaviour with their own Christian society (which was peaceful and women knew their place - or so they wanted to think...).

In archaeology 1066 is the division between Viking Age and Medieval period. I´d prefer an earlier date in the 1000´s or late 900´s - the period when the Scandinavian kings converted to Christianity.

Cheers,
Vandelay

 

[Styrbiorn]

Originally posted by Malthus

Which beings me to another question - when did the "Viking era" end? Was Harald the "last of the Vikings"?

Yes, 1066 is used as the closing year of the Viking Age (790/800 being the opening).

The women you're thinking about was probably Freydis Eiriksdottir.

 

[unmerged(2539)]

Originally posted by Emperor Gupta
I know, I know….but I just can’t watch a “political correctness” story go by without debunking it. It’s a compulsion – some people do bubble wrap, I do PC stories…

Well if youve ever read any Viking Sagas, its hard to see the cute friendly side over the revenge is best served bloody and often side. i think the article does have some merit, there is a greyish PC quality to some aspects of history at entry level, RE is a good example, cut the subject out altogether i gather.

"If I'd wanted to live forever, I'd have asked my mother to keep me in her sewing basket." viking saying that sticks in my mind.


HB

 

[unmerged(5678)]

I’m quite prepared to believe that schools are teaching a sanitised version, but the article provides no evidence that they are.