NI Comparison: Lithuanian vs Ruthenian

[Sunspawn]

A recent game as Lithuania made me wonder which idea set is better. I'll write down the ideas down so they're right here.

Note: I implore people not to start flame wars over off-topic issues. This is not a nationalism thread - keep nationalistic and anti-nationalistic chatter outside please.


Lithuanian Traditions: +15% Manpower Recovery Speed & +4 Tolerance towards Heretics
Lithuanian Ideas:
1. Warlord Dukes - +1 Land Leader Shock
2. Auksine Laisive - -10% Stability Cost
3. Madgeburg Laws - +10 National Tax
4. Magnate Estates - +10% Production efficiency
5. Lithuanian Hussars - +20 Cavalry CA
6. Statutes of LLithuania - -2 National Unrest
7. Lithuanian Renaissance: -5% Technology Cost
Lithuanian Ambitions: +1 Land Leader Maneuver

Ruthenian Traditions: +10% Manpower Recovery Speed, +15% Manpower
Ruthenian Ideas:
1. The Mother of Russian States - +0.5 monthly Legitimacy & Prestige
2. Foreign Influences - +2 Tolerance of Heretics
3. Zaporozhian Cossacks - +15% Cavalry CA
4. East and West - +10% Global trade power
5. Heritage of old Rus - -10% Stability cost
6. Reuniting Rus - -5 years of nationalism
7. Birth of Russian Orthodoxy - +1 Tolerance of own faith
Ruthenian Ambitions: +5% discipline



When I first started as Lithuania I was like "whoa! Those are some strong military NIs". +1 to shock early, manpower recovery, with the middle full of cash-giving goodies and later cavalry CA and land leader maneuver. With offensive and aristo ideas, this is +3 total shock!

In general, Ruthenian ideas seem like a watered-down version of Lithuanian ideas. Less cavalry CA, less manpower recovery CA, less heretic tolerance, no leader stat bonii...

On the other hand, it has a manpower boost (largely irrelevant for Lithuania unless you're going one-on-one against a fully-rested Russia/Muscovy(post-Novgobear)), a discipline bonus, less nationalism is nice, trade power means you can syphon more from other nodes and more legitimacy is not a bad bonus for the aftermath of average and weak claim successions.

Aside from strictly ideas, Ruthenia is an East Slavic cultural union, so no need to worry about russian provinces getting rebels once you start eating Muscovy. Also, cores on Polish and two Hungarian provinces allow easy, low-AE (since reconquest) expansion.

Hmm, not gonna ramble, any thoughts?

 

[MiniaAr]

I'm playing a Russian MP game currently and the Lithuanian player is toying with the idea of forming Ruthenia. I will follow this as I want to know if I'll have a harder time if I does just that.

 

[Zak Preston]

I'm playing a Russian MP game currently and the Lithuanian player is toying with the idea of forming Ruthenia. I will follow this as I want to know if I'll have a harder time if I does just that.

He could form PLC as Lithuania first )

IMHO Orthodox Lithuania (or shifted Ruthenia) is much more stable and can 1v1 deal with Muscovy, unlike it's Catholic counterpart (those rebellions are nasty)

Edit: I couldn't form Ruthenia when Russia existed, but vice versa is doable.

 

[Sunspawn]

Well, as far as waging war, he will likely not gain much from Ruthenian ideas - in terms of combat, they are strictly worse until ambitions and then it's a throw between what's better - discipline or extra shock pips.

 

[Zak Preston]

That Orthodox manpower and stability cost should also be taken in consideration.
However, I tend to agree that Ruthenian ideas are slightly worse than Lithuanian, but anyway much better than generic ones =)

 

[Sunspawn]

That Orthodox manpower and stability cost should also be taken in consideration.
However, I tend to agree that Ruthenian ideas are slightly worse than Lithuanian, but anyway much better than generic ones =)

As I formed Ruthenia from Lithuania (screw you polacks with your Commonwealth! #nonationalismorracismjusthumor) and thus catholic, I don't know about that.

Also, something that I like more with the new rebel system is the unrest reduction - the flat reduction is enormous with large-scale rebel locales(if a type of rebels has 10 provinces, that's -20 overall unrest on this rebel type!)

He could form PLC as Lithuania first )

IMHO Orthodox Lithuania (or shifted Ruthenia) is much more stable and can 1v1 deal with Muscovy, unlike it's Catholic counterpart (those rebellions are nasty)

Edit: I couldn't form Ruthenia when Russia existed, but vice versa is doable.

About religious rebellions - being a casual, I took Humanism for easier times, making random provinces switch to catholic at the expense of manpower - with Lithuania's already large manpower, you generally don't need to worry about manpower, so I got rid of the orthodoxy on my lands within around 40 years.

 

[MiniaAr]

He could form PLC as Lithuania first )

IMHO Orthodox Lithuania (or shifted Ruthenia) is much more stable and can 1v1 deal with Muscovy, unlike it's Catholic counterpart (those rebellions are nasty)

Edit: I couldn't form Ruthenia when Russia existed, but vice versa is doable.

Well he seems to want to keep Poland alive as an ally, I can't say the same thing for me if he forms Ruthenia.

However, he intends to convert to Reformed, which put a dent on my glorious idea: Ruthenia= Western Rus' Empire / Russia= Eastern Rus' Empire.

 

[Zak Preston]

Well he seems to want to keep Poland alive as an ally, I can't say the same thing for me if he forms Ruthenia.

However, he intends to convert to Reformed, which put a dent on my glorious idea: Ruthenia= Western Rus' Empire / Russia= Eastern Rus' Empire.

Are you playing MP together?

As I formed Ruthenia from Lithuania (screw you polacks with your Commonwealth! #nonationalismorracismjusthumor) and thus catholic, I don't know about that.

Also, something that I like more with the new rebel system is the unrest reduction - the flat reduction is enormous with large-scale rebel locales(if a type of rebels has 10 provinces, that's -20 overall unrest on this rebel type!)

About religious rebellions - being a casual, I took Humanism for easier times, making random provinces switch to catholic at the expense of manpower - with Lithuania's already large manpower, you generally don't need to worry about manpower, so I got rid of the orthodoxy on my lands within around 40 years.

But... but... You could form Commonwealth to get so much free lands, including Ruthenian from Poland and possibly Hungary... :sad:
If you intended to gather all Eastern Slavic lands under one ruler first, than I doubt that you needed Humanism as a first idea group, since Russian will be accepted soon enough.

 

[bbqftw]

I would value disc over shock - general pips are of course still valuable, but ever since the linearizing of casualties, having 5+/5+ generals doesn't seem to give you the gigantic advantage it used to.

 

[Sunspawn]

I hate the pink commonwealth color and don't really want it.

Interesting... can you elaborate bbq? I am not really aware of how the combat system works and curious about it.

 

[MiniaAr]

Are you playing MP together?

We are playing in the same 27 players MP. Together not really as of now, more against eachother. But I had hope of a Russia/Ruthenia sisterhood (much more sexy than Mother Russia, imo ).

Don't know if it's going to work though :unsure: