NF-tree most in need of revamp?
- Thread starter EltharionDrax
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
.png){kind=avatar}
North Africa, the Middle East, and perhaps culminating with a war goal on Turkey or Iran? I'd love to see the Turkish-Italian rivalry simulated in HOI4 at some point. In this scenario, Italy would actually prove to be a useful ally as they would be securing buckets of oil for Germany and also getting their Mare Nostrum.
Aren't we all?
It's an honest mistake and an easy one to make. Mosley was a monarchist through-and-through, and he did support Edward VIII during the abdication crisis. If the king told Mosley to dissolve his government and step down, he would probably do it. But there wasn't really an option to restore the British Empire to its former glory because it was currently living in its zenith (minus the Thirteen Colonies of the USA). He was more interested in preserving the peace and the Empire. Mosley was a veteran of WWI, he was both a trench soldier and pilot (unlike Hitler who was just some wartime courier). His experiences in WWI made him anti-war to his very core. Mosley would unfortunately make for pretty boring gameplay, he would only really be drawn into a fight if the attack was on Britain or her colonies. No blobbing for Mosleyite Britain unfortunately.
This would allow near infinite possibilities for almost every country. Most if not all divergent ahistorical paths would be possible, and they would also be able to be accurately simulated. We'll have to see what HOI4's future holds for it. This would be a pretty monumentous undertaking for Paradox as they'd need to redo every single focus tree, and that task only gets harder with the more they release.
Italy was promised Turkish land by the allies during the First World War.
Oh and the leader of the German-American Bund was Fritz Kuhn by the way. Maybe he could be involved in the new US tree , even if he was a scum bag. Lindbergh might also be a good choice with America First.
Yes, in the Treaty of Sveres. Seeing as how Germany is revising the Treaty of Versailles and Hungary is also changing the details of their Treaty of Trianon, I don't suppose Mussolini would see any reason why he couldn't help the Entente posthumously throw the Treaty of Lausanne out and instead double back down on the original Treaty of Sveres.
I don't see the incredibly nationalistic American people electing a German to lead their own ultra-nationalist movement. But Fritz Kuhn would make an excellent leader should Germany capitulate the USA and puppet them (far-fetched though it may be).
As for Charles Lindbergh, that is an interesting thought. I hadn't considered him before, but it kind-of makes sense. Charismatic and pro-Nazi, he could make the perfect contender to F.D.R. and the status quo. His policies aren't really ironed out, but if Paradox can make a Communist Japan tree I have faith that they can create an American fascist tree.
In fact there is a whole novel about Lindbergh beating F.D.R. in 1940 called" The Plot agaisnt America" by Phillip Roth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Plot_Against_America
I think that a lot of the problems with nf trees is that now we have the decision system, I think a lot of the focuses should be replaced with decisions.
This basically means I think all the trees need a major overhaul (but will reserve real judgement till after 1.5 is out).
USA though is boring to play so they should get first dibs.
This basically means I think all the trees need a major overhaul (but will reserve real judgement till after 1.5 is out).
USA though is boring to play so they should get first dibs.
I'd say USA and USSR need reworked focus trees next, with Italy and UK coming after that. France (+ Vichy France) and Poland in third place.
The problem I see is between what fits together for the theme of the DLC, and what is needed in the game more urgently. For example, new focus trees for USA and UK would fit nicely in a naval DLC since they have large navies, but USA and USSR are the two trees that need reworking most in the next DLC (even though they don't fit together well in terms of a DLC theme).
My preference would be a naval DLC with USA, USSR, Finland, Norway and Spain getting focus trees. This would give us the much-needed naval rework, as well as trees for the two majors who need them the most + the minors who are quite involved and relevant to the war. This DLC would focus on naval balance, naval combat, convoy raiding, organising your navies (naval templates!), naval invasions, trade routes, lend-lease etc. There could be lots of interesting things to include with the new Decisions/Missions mechanics, such as being able to seize Norway's merchant fleet during Weserubung.
After that we could get a Mediterranean DLC with UK, Italy, Turkey, Bulgaria and Greece getting focus trees - though I'm not quite sure what the theme of such a DLC might be. Maybe it could cover weather and land supply, and make defense more interesting (there were lots of interesting battles involving Rommel and his many minefields in North Africa). It could also include some espionage/intelligence features to flesh out that aspect of the game.
The problem I see is between what fits together for the theme of the DLC, and what is needed in the game more urgently. For example, new focus trees for USA and UK would fit nicely in a naval DLC since they have large navies, but USA and USSR are the two trees that need reworking most in the next DLC (even though they don't fit together well in terms of a DLC theme).
My preference would be a naval DLC with USA, USSR, Finland, Norway and Spain getting focus trees. This would give us the much-needed naval rework, as well as trees for the two majors who need them the most + the minors who are quite involved and relevant to the war. This DLC would focus on naval balance, naval combat, convoy raiding, organising your navies (naval templates!), naval invasions, trade routes, lend-lease etc. There could be lots of interesting things to include with the new Decisions/Missions mechanics, such as being able to seize Norway's merchant fleet during Weserubung.
After that we could get a Mediterranean DLC with UK, Italy, Turkey, Bulgaria and Greece getting focus trees - though I'm not quite sure what the theme of such a DLC might be. Maybe it could cover weather and land supply, and make defense more interesting (there were lots of interesting battles involving Rommel and his many minefields in North Africa). It could also include some espionage/intelligence features to flesh out that aspect of the game.
Last edited:
I was doing some research on this a while back, and I agree that the USA naturally moving toward either fascism or communism is too unlikely to really explore in the game, not to mention the fact that throwing the country's weight behind either the Comintern or Axis would basically seal the game for either side. However, there were some interesting trends into more populist politics that could, at the very least, lead to alternate governments or presidents with characteristics that could affect the game. A branch that explores Huey Long having survived into the late 1930s and challenging FDR in the primaries; the Union Party under Long's leadership; Charles Lindbergh agreeing to run on an America First platform and keeping the US out of the war until he is replaced or the country is outright attacked; or other possibilities. I think the USA could be built out more, in general, as well.
For Britain, it might make more sense to split off a Mosley takeover into either Fascist or Non-Aligned (Monarchist) - the former when his rivals in the party oust him and destabilize Britain trying to align to actively support Germany, and the latter to actually bring back Edward VIII.
Finally, I think the way government-type interactions function is a bit too simplistic. Democracies naturally liking each other is fine, but fascist governments would more logically compete with one another. For instance, a France in which fascism rises without a foreign power toppling the government would more likely compete with Germany and naturally dislike Germany than just get on board. Decolonization was so difficult for France (see Algeria and Vietnam) that a rightist government would probably be more likely to aggressively compete for colonial gains and European dominance than to jump on board with Germany - unless Germany decided to channel its fascism solely to anti-communism.
But therein lies to rub for simulating fascism in the game. Fascism had both rightist and lefitst tendencies, relying mostly on how it channeled its populism. Fascist countries should basically just be a foreign policy free-for-all, with their relations dependent on their goals rather than enjoying the company of fellow dictators.
Last edited:
All of my just prior post is mostly to say that, yes, I think the US and UK focus trees could be revised to show more a-historical paths while still clinging to some level of historical base. I actually just had an idea involving stability that I'm going to post in the suggestion area.
The lack of a Stresa Front direction for Italy makes me quite sad. I'd buy the game, with that.
I've been saying almost this exact thing for months now, with a minor tweak. My suggestion is two seperate branches for fascism - one where you play the war-averse Mosley and one where you play the inexperienced imperialist Edward VIII. The Mosley tree should mostly contain industry, resource development, and national spirits (at the cost of basically minimal war support except in the case of a defensive war) while the Monarchist tree should be about creating a big British blob! With Mosley, you take an almost Swiss-like neutrality stance except in dire circumstances (maybe a German offensive war on France would call Mosley and the British to spring into action against the Germans). With Edward VIII, you either align with the Axis or you take on the whole world and take the British Empire to new heights (or lows).
French fascism was almost ENTIRELY anti-German. A Paris-Berlin Axis was a helluva lot more unlikely than a Paris-Rome Axis, or even a Paris-Madrid Axis. The fascists banded together like cornered rats in WWII because they were more or less forced to. But with other variables? If Mussolini got to choose between Germany and France as a fascist ally, they would've picked France almost 100% of the time. A fascist France would focus (I believe) on German containment and passive colonial competition with Britain.
Basically the best way to sum up. Every nation is gonna have its own goals, and those goals don't necessarily have to align with the goals of another country. Italy was preparing for war with Germany before the Pact of Steel was signed - but if Mussolini had other potential friends, what could have happened? No Pact of Steel means that Europe turns into a powderkeg again, with every fascist nation at the other's throat.
Well, we'll eventually hit that point where the only way for Paradox to continue making DLC for the game is that they have to extend the timeline. I'd much rather see a historical expansion and potential alternate history routes (or the cold war) than WWIII Atomic Capree.
While I agree the US FT needs some love, balance will be an issue. The most plausible way for it to be fleshed out would involve ramping up its potential power to something more akin to its historical military and economic strength... which could be tough to balance.
Then again... its already relatively easy (if tedious) to play as the US, so maybe P’dox should just go whole hog and make them ungodly powerful within the game, and give Axis/Comintern a real ‘final boss’ tag to play against.
Then again... its already relatively easy (if tedious) to play as the US, so maybe P’dox should just go whole hog and make them ungodly powerful within the game, and give Axis/Comintern a real ‘final boss’ tag to play against.
Yeah I see a lot of memes about reforming the German empire and Qing China or Austria Hungary on /r/me_irl...
For one thing, every alt history path is rubbish—because it didn’t happen. Since you’ve apparently earned your MA or PHD, then surely you must know how squeamish professors get when asked hypothetical questions—especially, in my experience, History and Political Science professors...
There are so many different threads one could follow to form alt history that appear sound to the layman. And that’s what this is, a game for the layman. No one is taking GRE to buy a copy, no one had to take the Foreign Service Officer Test to refresh the multiplayer lobby list. We are just a bunch of (presumably) dudes of various ages who like WW2 and have a little control freak issue.
There's no way fascists would have gained power in the US, particularly in 1936-on. It doesn't even merit consideration. At least the Communists registered in national elections, even if it was at less than 1% at its peak.
Not sure what professors you have... Either way anecdotal experience doesn't prove anything, as you should know from your studies.
As stated numerous times before, there is a distinct difference in degree between different types of alternate history in terms of plausibility. Labeling it all as "rubbish" is absurd, especially considering how absurd some historical events were (the Doolittle Raid is a good example).
I liked France when I started the game, because it was the only nation giving you so much choices regarding your internal policy and military doctrine. Now, it's less than what Hungary and soon Japan have to offer. Turning fascist or communist is pretty much the end of the path it should be the beginning of, the fortification idea is less rewarding than what the generic focus (and the Polish one) gives you, but still make the choice between defensive and offensive unbalanced, the "revise Versaille" focus doesn't let you revise Versaille at all, you can't search for oil in Algeria, the AI still join the Allies as communist France quite often, and so on. So many things could be done with France that it's frustrating. I also think that most of its colonies should be replaced with various level of puppets (Morocco, Tunisia, West Africa, Equatorial Africa, Syria/Lebanon, Madagascar and Indochina).
The US tree is a mess and don't allow to do much. There are so much alt-his possibilities which could be explored, not only with the classical fascist/communist options. I would love to be able to create an anti-colonial faction, help Canada and Australia get rid of their ties with Britain and take over the last British and French colonies in the Americas and the Pacific, for instance.
The British tree isn't lacking much, aside from alt-his possibilities, there's even too much things to do with not enough time. It's clearly not the top priority in my opinion.
The German tree will already have an update, but I still think it needs another alternate political path in which a republican/people revolution fire. It would then have to chose between going full communist or become a democratic republic rather than a democratic constitutional monarchy. It would be even more interesting if the military and civilian revolt could happen simultaneously, creating a three-way civil war. I also think the fascist path still need a few changes, but not a total overall.
The Italian tree is nice, even though the ai has a hard time handling it (it often takes the political path too late for it to be useful) and, once again, it's lacking alt-his pathes. Maybe the ordrer of the branches need more rework than the foci themselves.
USSR clearly need an overhaul, it is utterly boring to play as, doesn't give political choices and lack military foci.
And I know the devs stated that they would not rework the trees from later dlc, but many of them actually need it. Poland should be entirely reworked, as many already said, Canada is a messy maze, India and Hungary are great but could be even better, Yugoslavia and Romania are confusing especially for the AI, and as a whole, all focus trees have difficulties to take into account the choices that other countries could make. Many foci shouldn't have an instantaneous effect but rather fire multiple choices events or give you acces to new decisions depending on the world situation.
The US tree is a mess and don't allow to do much. There are so much alt-his possibilities which could be explored, not only with the classical fascist/communist options. I would love to be able to create an anti-colonial faction, help Canada and Australia get rid of their ties with Britain and take over the last British and French colonies in the Americas and the Pacific, for instance.
The British tree isn't lacking much, aside from alt-his possibilities, there's even too much things to do with not enough time. It's clearly not the top priority in my opinion.
The German tree will already have an update, but I still think it needs another alternate political path in which a republican/people revolution fire. It would then have to chose between going full communist or become a democratic republic rather than a democratic constitutional monarchy. It would be even more interesting if the military and civilian revolt could happen simultaneously, creating a three-way civil war. I also think the fascist path still need a few changes, but not a total overall.
The Italian tree is nice, even though the ai has a hard time handling it (it often takes the political path too late for it to be useful) and, once again, it's lacking alt-his pathes. Maybe the ordrer of the branches need more rework than the foci themselves.
USSR clearly need an overhaul, it is utterly boring to play as, doesn't give political choices and lack military foci.
And I know the devs stated that they would not rework the trees from later dlc, but many of them actually need it. Poland should be entirely reworked, as many already said, Canada is a messy maze, India and Hungary are great but could be even better, Yugoslavia and Romania are confusing especially for the AI, and as a whole, all focus trees have difficulties to take into account the choices that other countries could make. Many foci shouldn't have an instantaneous effect but rather fire multiple choices events or give you acces to new decisions depending on the world situation.
Last edited:
The real problem is that for pretty much everyone the political tree is either "I'm this ideology MUUUUUH" or "switch ideology!"
Only Italy and Germany are remotely interesting because they actually get to bully people while France and Britain don't even get a "don't bully people anymore!" focus.
It would be amazing if some focuses unlocked focuses for other countries as well, we only somewhat have that now in the form of Britain's pre-emptive intervention if Germany (for some reason) gets friendly with other countries instead of invading them.* I think Kaiserreich does stuff like this, particularly for post civil war America.
*Yes, those focuses legitimately are there to ensure that war still happens if Germany takes the "befriend x" focuses, not for generic popularity boosting, but they do, at least, take generic popularity boosting into account and use party support instead of "Germany takes x focus"
But... they don't need a focus for this. They can object to Rhineland and the Sudeten Crisis via event when Germany runs the NF.
In fact, wouldn't an NF to object to German bullying be less useful than just being allowed to object to Germany's behavior when Germany uses the NF? Why waste an NF just to wag your finger at Germany over the Rhineland or Sudeten Crisis?
That was just the best example I could think of in the 5 minutes I had to type that.
But... they don't need a focus for this. They can object to Rhineland and the Sudeten Crisis via event when Germany runs the NF.
In fact, wouldn't an NF to object to German bullying be less useful than just being allowed to object to Germany's behavior when Germany uses the NF? Why waste an NF just to wag your finger at Germany over the Rhineland or Sudeten Crisis?