NF-tree most in need of revamp?

[EltharionDrax]

What it says on the tin. With the upcoming release of revamped NF-trees for GER and JAP, which of the remaining vanilla NF-trees is most in need of a revamp and why?

For me, it's the USA. The Monroe-doctrine path is unnecessarily large for such an uneventful part of the world as South America, The Pearl Harbor-gambit rarely if ever seems to trigger an attack on the USA and the embargoes in the NF-tree aren't really embargoes.

 

[Magnificent Genius]

At this point, I'd say the US as well. Way too much of it is gated by WT, and another good bit of it is useless if you are going fascist/commie.

 

[walt526]

US for sure. There aren't even really any good mods that have a replacement tree for it (unlike Germany, for example).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'd give USA the nod also, this position does nothing for even longer than most bottom tier minors, despite its strength.

 

[billcorr]

A special shout-out to the modders who have tweaked and tested different National Focuses...to include publishing original national focuses. Some of the modding community's National Focuses are well researched and balanced. (others flavors of NF's are also represented).

If we gamers had our act together , we'd evaluate the existing mods to identify what features should be standardized as part of the base game.

There is a bountiful crop of mods waiting to be harvested by Paradox.

 

[KalypsoKirin]

USA, for sure, but I think France could use a little love, too. Nothing major, just a little something to help spruce it up to compare with the new Japanese and Germany trees.

 

[Shaka of Carthage]

A special shout-out to the modders who have tweaked and tested different National Focuses...to include publishing original national focuses. Some of the modding community's National Focuses are well researched and balanced. (others flavors of NF's are also represented).

If we gamers had our act together , we'd evaluate the existing mods to identify what features should be standardized as part of the base game.

Perhaps you could start a thread regarding the best National Focuses? I was going ask you for the one's you felt were "well researched and balanced".

 

[pvt.conners]

After the USA, I'd say France and the Soviet Union.
Apart from going Communist/Fascist, there is not much meat to the French focus tree.
Your starting National Spirits also seriously railroad you into doing two trees above others, which I suppose reflects the difficulties faced by France.
The Soviet Union also needs an overhaul, especially some viable alternatives to Stalin would be welcome.

 

[billcorr]

I was going ask you for the one's you felt were "well researched and balanced".

You called my bluff.



I'm depending entirely on nature's bell-shaped curve...on one end of the curve there would be atrocious, poorly researched and biased national focuses.
Assuming that there is balance in the universe, there should be (note the word, "should") on the other end of the curve, "well researched and balanced" national focuses.

My statement about the theoretical existence of good national focuses is a statement of faith in the above chart.

 

[endersaim]

The Soviet Union’s tree really needs a rework

In real life their control over their industry was much greater and they produced much more than they do in HOI4

 

[Secret Master]

The NF tree that needs the most work?

The overpowered and ridiculous generic one, obviously.

 

[billcorr]

In real life their control over their industry was much greater and they produced much more than they do in HOI4

This remark probably deserves a thread unto itself.

In fact, a doctoral dissertation could be dedicated to "The Favorable Portrayal of Command Economies in PC Games."

It would be an interesting thesis.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

This remark probably deserves a thread unto itself.

In fact, a doctoral dissertation could be dedicated to "The Favorable Portrayal of Command Economies in PC Games."

It would be an interesting thesis.

It would be interesting, but a lot boils down to that more people's choices matter IRL than they do in a game.

If you had a setup in reality that could somehow allow a single decision-maker to control everything without degrading the performance of the working pieces of the economy, command economy might well perform much better. I don't think humans in their present form have the capacity to be such a decision-maker, but games take care a lot of those troublesome details by either abstracting them or just not assigning them any consequential value.

 

[Broletariat90]

USA, for sure, but I think France could use a little love, too. Nothing major, just a little something to help spruce it up to compare with the new Japanese and Germany trees.

All France really needs is to get rid of Petain as leader of fascist France and replace him with Marcel Bucard. I feel like the Soviet Union is probably the worst as of now. The Poland tree is also just boring/generic.

 

[CaptRobau]

I'm voting for USA too. If naval redo is next, then naval power USA makes a lot of sense. The NF tree is also very uninteresting and railroad-y. For a country that is on the sidelines the longest, you really need something to spruce up those prewar years. I'm torn on how alt-history it should go, though. The American continent in the Kaiserreich mod is very interesting because of the Second American Civil War. A US CW in the HOI4 timeline is not as realistic though, compared to more divided countries like France. But without you remove a lot of possibilities for the American theatre. What do you guys think?

 

[Aeon221]

France could use some bonuses to mobile warfare doctrine research in the maneuver focus tree. It works super well with their planning spirit and is generally fun as France (especially with their motorized kit cost reduction), so the game should suggest it. It'd also be nice to see a focus tree segment that opens when the war starts that gives them some desperation options for an NU cost (Fire Gamelin, Defense of Paris, Brittany National Redouble, Capitulate or Flee). Maybe also a militia spam NF (No Pasaran equivalent) if surrender % gets high and war support is also high.

 

[swm]

Absolutely the USA.

Remove some of the WT gates (and lose the entire Monroe Doctrine tree altogether - it's just bad), and give the USA the ability to respond to certain specific actions by the axis powers. Specifically, the USA should be able to respond to Germany capitulating allied majors and declaring on the soviets. In particular, a successful operation Sealion should allow the USA to quickly bolster its support of the UK (more volunteers + quickly increasing war support). Taking London should basically result in an insta-DOW to prevent the Allies faction from surrendering if the UK capitulates. Maybe allow the USA to change laws to War Economy/Total Mobilization early?

At the very least, I'd like to see an event for the USA intervening if Germany lands in Canada. In the era of the Monroe doctrine, it is absolutely nuts that the dominant strategy for taking out the USA as Germany is to Peace Conference annex Canada before the USA even joins, and then line up on their border. That just strains credibility: for one thing, Canada wouldn't just accept being annexed, for another - the USA would have intervened early if Germany had tried to cross the Atlantic in any fashion.

From the Axis perspective, the USA should be the ultimate end boss (certainly for the Allies, perhaps for the entire game). Successfully mounting an invasion of the continental United States should take extensive planning and coordination between your Army, Navy (insofar as the Navy is a functional part of this game) and Air forces. As it is, you can line up on America's doorstep without even getting DOW'd.

From the Allies perspective, the USA would like to play this game too, thanks. Every game I've ever tried as them has ended with me giving up in despair as the UK and SU trash Germany (and even if the SU loses, they've weakened Germany to the point where they just fall over as soon as the first landings happen).

To me, making the historical path for the USA fun is more significant than the ahistorical path. Frankly, a fascist USA is enough of a juggernaut already that they don't even need a focus tree + 99% of the time, they're going to follow the historical path.

France takes a distant second. They're not great right now, but they at least get to participate in the war.

 

[hkrommel]

USA>France>USSR>Italy>UK

USA has been summarized pretty well.

France is really boring and basic. If France survives the initial onslaught there should be a lot more potential than there currently is. The tree as it stands brings France to getting rid of its negative national spirits, but doesn't really develop beyond that. Ahistorical ideologies are in place but ahistorical courses of action are not really beyond military doctrine, which is still limited to 2 options.

USSR is powerful and impactful enough, it just lacks interesting possibilities and real choices, particularly concerning army reform and internal politics/economy.

Italy is similar to the USSR, but it's actually a pretty good tree (the second best out of the original trees IMHO). Meaningful choice and ahistorical paths should be the focus here.

UK saw some rehabilitation with TfV, but still needs some good possibilities for ahistorical yet plausible interventions (Finnish Winter War, for example) and more out there ahistorical paths that other nations are getting.

 

[Tarkilth]

Norway, clearly.

 

[Secret Master]

This remark probably deserves a thread unto itself.

In fact, a doctoral dissertation could be dedicated to "The Favorable Portrayal of Command Economies in PC Games."

Many years ago (as in, before Vic2 came out), one of the Devs (Chris King I believe), talked about why this was the case.

In part, he mentioned that even though he considered himself a disciple of Thatcher's economics, the way video games depict economies lend themselves towards promoting command economies. In most cases, there is no administrative waste (you earn 200 minerals, and then spend that 200 minerals on a corvette with no cost overruns), or problems with innovation (the player controls the research), or even misinformation coming from your production screen (no mid level party officials lying about the amount of iron or steel produced in their department). Even when games have civilian economies represented (consumer goods in HOI, Stellaris, and POPs buying manufactured goods in Vic2), there are no trends in consumer goods (everyone wants a green sweater this month, but next month brown ties are in fashion), no art to produce and buy, and no way to model competing economic theories (Keynesian versus Austrian school) while having a sane, understandable game.

So, rather than make a game with unclear information that lies to the player 30% of the time, and that doesn't let the player do things in a clear manner with easy to understand consequences (which would piss everyone off), game designers tend to make command economies look good.

At least HOI4 has some benefits to free trade, and Vic2 provides special bonuses to boost the economy when you aren't running a hard core command economy.