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Lord Hoosier

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As Catholicism and Paganism just got tons of new features with Holy Fury, I hope the next expansion, if they keep doing them, does a similar thing to Islam and Orthodoxy, the other two major religions if one is playing in or around Europe. Islam has not seen work since Sons of Abraham and Orthodoxy now feels pointless compared to it's flashier western brother.

Orthodoxy could get the same level of flavor and care Catholicism got in Holy Fury, and this could be to Sword of Islam as Holy Fury was to The Old Gods.
 

marcosfreitas

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They should make possible to orthodox characters to join in crusades for jerusalem, also non-zealous orthodox should be able to join wars in defense of catholics (should be applied to non-zealous catholics joining in defense of orthodox, too) given that they are unwilling to make pre-schism christianity.
 

Lord Hoosier

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It would be funny if they spiced up the Orthodox & Islamic heresies, but not the base religions. Some of the Orthodox heresies are too interesting to pass up.
Orthodoxy had some pretty great heresies.
 

Keizer Harm

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Lord Hoosier

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RedBaronFlyer

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Bogomilism, Eutychianism, Valentinianism.

What effects would those heresies have in game to make them special instead of downgrades to Orthodoxy?
 

Lord Hoosier

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Keizer Harm

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MrFish291

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I agree. Islam doesn't even have any societies besides the Assassins, which at this point is just an easy way to convert to Shia. I don't know enough about Islam to suggest mechanics for it, but it definitely feels a bit bland to me.

As for Orthodox, I agree that it also needs new features. Even copy and pasting some Catholic features might do it some good. I think that Autocephally in general needs a rework. There should be more ways to interact with both your religious head and the other religious heads of the same religion, which could make it feel more like a Christian "community." Maybe there could be theological debates you could be involved with as an Orthodox ruler or something? However, I think that the best thing that could be done for Orthodoxy is making the Byzantine Empire less awful. At the very least, there could be some way to reform the government away from having such awful elective succession.
 
Last edited:

FifthMonarchy

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And the Miaphysites! (As I always say on these threads; Nestorians too of course)
 

klopkr

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They should make possible to orthodox characters to join in crusades for jerusalem, also non-zealous orthodox should be able to join wars in defense of catholics (should be applied to non-zealous catholics joining in defense of orthodox, too) given that they are unwilling to make pre-schism christianity.
Same for miaphysites. Ethiopians literally joined the crusades and distracted the egyptians in the south and even captured castles and had a saint from it.

Crusades should really be thought of as a christian thing that just happens to mostly be spearheaded by catholics.
 

Lord Hoosier

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Would you mind elaborating? :)
Bogomils were the Eastern cousins, and possibly ancestors of Cathars. They refused to use the cross and used a circle instead.

Valentinians were a very strange secret gnostic movement. They believed in a Demiurge and gnosis or secret knowledge required for salvation. Eutychianism was one of those high theological heresies, but was completely nonsensical. It's very complicated, and orthodoxwiki can explain it better than me. It was so ridiculous that Pope Leo the Great used it as a scapegoat to influence the Council of Chalcedon before the Great Schism. His letter to the Eastern Bishops opens with him cracking a joke about Eutyches' intelligence.
 

RedBaronFlyer

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Bogomils were the Eastern cousins, and possibly ancestors of Cathars. They refused to use the cross and used a circle instead.

Valentinians were a very strange secret gnostic movement. They believed in a Demiurge and gnosis or secret knowledge required for salvation. Eutychianism was one of those high theological heresies, but was completely nonsensical. It's very complicated, and orthodoxwiki can explain it better than me. It was so ridiculous that Pope Leo the Great used it as a scapegoat to influence the Council of Chalcedon before the Great Schism. His letter to the Eastern Bishops opens with him cracking a joke about Eutyches' intelligence.

But what does that mean in terms of in-game mechanics (new or reused)? Bogomils just seem like the generic "Same as the orthodox religion but it doesn't have a religious head" Some of its core beliefs are impossible to implement without it being a bullet to the head of any poor soul that thinks it's a good idea to convert.

Quoting the Bogomilism wiki page

"Its followers refused to pay taxes, to work in serfdom, or to fight in conquering wars."

"Bogomils refused to fast on Mondays and Fridays, and they rejected monasticism."

"They declared Christ to be the Son of God only through grace like other prophets, and that the bread and wine of the eucharist were not physically transformed into flesh and blood; that the last judgement would be executed by God and not by Jesus; that the images and the cross were idols and the veneration of saints and relics idolatry."

It just seems like an extremely castrated form of Orthodoxy that's not worth using outside of an achievement run.

What I'm saying when I ask what sets them apart (And I imagine what Keizer Harm is saying as well) is what sets them apart mechanically. Those heresies were pretty interesting to read about however I can't tell how they would fundamentally differ from Orthodoxy in-game. Both of them seem to have the issue that a solid 80% of the heresies do, they're just castrated forms of their parent religion.

There are some unique outliers like Fraticellism, Iconoclast, and Monophysitism that are nearly identical to their parent religion. There are the equality heresies like Catharism and it's downgraded cousin Bogomilism (I say downgraded because unlike Catharism it doesn't have access to absolute cognatic despite allowing female temple holders and no penalty to female rulers). And there's the meme heresy of Messalianism which has incest and no religious head to set it apart from Nestorianism. Those are the only ones I could think of that are different enough from their parent religion to bring up. Lollardy and Waldensianism are downgraded forms of their parent religion.
 

Lord Hoosier

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But what does that mean in terms of in-game mechanics (new or reused)? Bogomils just seem like the generic "Same as the orthodox religion but it doesn't have a religious head" Some of its core beliefs are impossible to implement without it being a bullet to the head of any poor soul that thinks it's a good idea to convert.

Quoting the Bogomilism wiki page

"Its followers refused to pay taxes, to work in serfdom, or to fight in conquering wars."

"Bogomils refused to fast on Mondays and Fridays, and they rejected monasticism."

"They declared Christ to be the Son of God only through grace like other prophets, and that the bread and wine of the eucharist were not physically transformed into flesh and blood; that the last judgement would be executed by God and not by Jesus; that the images and the cross were idols and the veneration of saints and relics idolatry."

It just seems like an extremely castrated form of Orthodoxy that's not worth using outside of an achievement run.

What I'm saying when I ask what sets them apart (And I imagine what Keizer Harm is saying as well) is what sets them apart mechanically. Those heresies were pretty interesting to read about however I can't tell how they would fundamentally differ from Orthodoxy in-game. Both of them seem to have the issue that a solid 80% of the heresies do, they're just castrated forms of their parent religion.

There are some unique outliers like Fraticellism, Iconoclast, and Monophysitism that are nearly identical to their parent religion. There are the equality heresies like Catharism and it's downgraded cousin Bogomilism (I say downgraded because unlike Catharism it doesn't have access to absolute cognatic despite allowing female temple holders and no penalty to female rulers). And there's the meme heresy of Messalianism which has incest and no religious head to set it apart from Nestorianism. Those are the only ones I could think of that are different enough from their parent religion to bring up. Lollardy and Waldensianism are downgraded forms of their parent religion.
As I said I was more speaking historically. Im not saying they are good in the game. I think the focus should be on first of all Orthodoxy on that side. I brought those up more as a historical reference. But Iconoclasm should get some love as the 769 date begins with them overpowering Orthodoxy. I don't know enough about that movement to differentiate it mechanically.
 

biggienpac

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Love supporting this game, but before they go to CK3 they definitely need to have Islam and Orthodoxy completely reworked.

It feels like the new Catholic-Pagan mechanics are almost a different game compared the others which is great but should definitely incorporate all the other major religions at the time.
 

Lord Hoosier

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Maybe Sufi Lodge societies for Islam. That would be cool. It could replicate the saints feature from Catholicism and make their tombs pilgrimage sites. Was Sufism around when this game is set?

Also heresies like Druze and Yazidi could either be spun into their own faiths or given more developed features.

Edit: typo