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rickinator9

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I love how some people call the Holy Roman Empire to be neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire, but then in the same breath cheerish the abortion that was Byzantium (or, even less, Russia) as the "second" and "third" Rome.

At least the HRE kept some nominal connection to the actual city of Rome - for Constantinople and Moscow the claims to Roman legacy were nothing but empty pretences.
I love how some people call the HRE the legitimate Rome, while it has no ties to Rome. It's core territory, Germany, was never controlled by Rome. It was not Holy, as it had an tendency to clash with the pope. It was not Roman, but german. It was not an empire, but a decentralized kingdom.
The Byzantine Empire was the legitimate successor to the Romans. Just because some odd historian called it 'Byzantine empire' doesn't mean it's not the Eastern Roman Empire. It's inhabitants were mostly greek, but they regarded themselves as being Roman.
Moscow regarded itself as the Third Rome as they were Orthodox(which the second Rome, Constantinople, also was). They also had a marriage to a Byzantine princess.
 

unmerged(287474)

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Well guys I fear this will be nothing but flavor sprites and music possibly. Already registering it in steam and they haven't dropped the slightest hint at a new patch like they did with SoI.
Many booster DLC is released without an announcement and this looks like it might just be flavor.

I'll buy it anyways. :p

seor-gif-shut-up-and-take-my-money.gif
 

simast

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And I do agree that playable pagans would just be going too far...

Why? How would this be any different from the muslim DLC we already have? Pagans are part of the game. Except that right now they are modeled as an easy land grab.

Take a look at Grand Duchy of Lithuania history. It was only christianized in 1387. And if the starting date can be moved back by 100 years or so - we could get some interesting gameplay with Norse pagans as well.
 

GillesDeRais

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I love how some people call the HRE the legitimate Rome, while it has no ties to Rome. It's core territory, Germany, was never controlled by Rome. It was not Holy, as it had an tendency to clash with the pope. It was not Roman, but german. It was not an empire, but a decentralized kingdom.
The Byzantine Empire was the legitimate successor to the Romans. Just because some odd historian called it 'Byzantine empire' doesn't mean it's not the Eastern Roman Empire. It's inhabitants were mostly greek, but they regarded themselves as being Roman.
Moscow regarded itself as the Third Rome as they were Orthodox(which the second Rome, Constantinople, also was). They also had a marriage to a Byzantine princess.

It was Holy but not in the sense we understand it today: Holy meant to to express the fact that it was Christian and blessed by the Pope. Remember, this is the 9th century, the Franks had only converted to Christianity about 250 years ago and most of what is now Germany was pagan. The first emperor, Charlemagne, followed to policy initiated by his father Pippin the Short, formalised in the treaty of Quierzy (754): the Frankish Kings (of Pippin's dynasty) would rule with the Pope's benediction and said Kings swore to protect the Papacy, much in need of protection at the time. Pope Leo III crowned (among others) one of Charlemagne's sons as King of Italy, even before the same Pope crowned Charlemagne in 800.

It was Roman, which does not mean it had actual physical ties to Rome or was located there, it was Roman because the coronation of Charlemagne and of the emperors who were subsequently crowned (also by the Pope) took place in Rome (or in Italy). True enough, after a while, the emperors ceased to be actually crowned by the Pope and formaly were only emperors-elect (Charles V was the last, around 1530). It should also be noted that the emperor-elect bore the title of King of the Romans. Moreover, Charlemagne and his successors did have the ambition of their empire being the successor state of the Roman Empire and so to create one unique Christian empire.

It was an Empire but not in the modern sense of the term. It was an Empire for the simple reason that its ruler (whatever his actual powers were) was an Emperor, blessed and crowned so by the the spiritual leader of Christianity.

While there is a lot of dispute as to its nature, history, powers of its emperor, the term HRE is generaly accepted by historians and does have sufficient basis in fact. To be precise, Charles V's official imperial style was: divina favente clementia romanorum imperator semper augustus, rex germaniae (by divine clemency emperor of the Romans always August, King of Germany).
 

SweArdaia

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I love how some people call the Holy Roman Empire to be neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire, but then in the same breath cheerish the abortion that was Byzantium (or, even less, Russia) as the "second" and "third" Rome.

At least the HRE kept some nominal connection to the actual city of Rome - for Constantinople and Moscow the claims to Roman legacy were nothing but empty pretences.

I am going to give you a short history lession here:

The roman empire fell apart in a western, latin speaking part, and an eastern, greek speaking part. Eventually, the west succumbed to barbarian invasions, while the Eastern half lived on to 1453. The eastern part is what we know today as the Byzantine Empire.

Yes, they did not control the city of Rome for most of its history, Yes they did not speak Latin. But they referred to themselves as Romans. Their neighbours knew them as the Roman Empire (Since there was no reason to call it the ERE when the west was gone). Later historians didn't want to call them the Roman Empire as they did not control Rome and was not latin speaking, so they began looking for other names. The "Constantinopolian Empire sounds a bit wrong, doesn't it? So they called it the Byzantine Empire after Constantinople's former name, Byzantium.

Therefore, your argument is invalid
 

Prime624

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Well guys I fear this will be nothing but flavor sprites and music possibly. Already registering it in steam and they haven't dropped the slightest hint at a new patch like they did with SoI.
Many booster DLC is released without an announcement and this looks like it might just be flavor.

I'll buy it anyways. :p

seor-gif-shut-up-and-take-my-money.gif

I'm with you. Don't charge me for extra features, only for art and music. :) But yeah, a Byzantine DLC? Not expansion?
 

Yazman

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I love how some people call the Holy Roman Empire to be neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire, but then in the same breath cheerish the abortion that was Byzantium (or, even less, Russia) as the "second" and "third" Rome.

At least the HRE kept some nominal connection to the actual city of Rome - for Constantinople and Moscow the claims to Roman legacy were nothing but empty pretences.

I love how some people don't pay attention and don't realise that the "HRE is neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire" statement was a QUOTE from VOLTAIRE! A man who lived when the HRE was actually around.
 

Joel M Bridge

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I am going to give you a short history lession here:

The roman empire fell apart in a western, latin speaking part, and an eastern, greek speaking part. Eventually, the west succumbed to barbarian invasions, while the Eastern half lived on to 1453. The eastern part is what we know today as the Byzantine Empire.

Yes, they did not control the city of Rome for most of its history, Yes they did not speak Latin. But they referred to themselves as Romans. Their neighbours knew them as the Roman Empire (Since there was no reason to call it the ERE when the west was gone). Later historians didn't want to call them the Roman Empire as they did not control Rome and was not latin speaking, so they began looking for other names. The "Constantinopolian Empire sounds a bit wrong, doesn't it? So they called it the Byzantine Empire after Constantinople's former name, Byzantium.

Therefore, your argument is invalid
'

Byzantiun is name of city. but it was rebuild by the first christan emperor, it nickname of Constantinople mean city of Constantine, he name city Nova Roma, his presuccor Dicleation was emperor stop all that non sense of going rome and first chirsten emperor put nail off coffin, goveremtn rome the empire, was all invested in indivual not city, roman lost it poltical imporntant two years before western empire fell.
 

SweArdaia

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'

Byzantiun is name of city. but it was rebuild by the first christan emperor, it nickname of Constantinople mean city of Constantine, he name city Nova Roma, his presuccor Dicleation was emperor stop all that non sense of going rome and first chirsten emperor put nail off coffin, goveremtn rome the empire, was all invested in indivual not city, roman lost it poltical imporntant two years before western empire fell.

Byzantium was the name of the Greek colony on the bosphorus before Constantine build his "Nova Roma" on top of it. The city never got that name tough as the inhabitants choose to name it Constantinople. Constantine's predecessor Diocletian split the Roman empire in two and gave it a more stable way of succession. Much preferred to the civil wars that occured when the Augustus died.
Constantinople is not a nickname for Byzantium or Nova Roma, it's the acual name of the city after its construction.

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting some things, a bit hard to see what you write sometimes:confused:
 

h3+

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If it is an ERE overhaul, I wonder how PI will implement the changes, keeping the same check sum for all purchasers/non-purchasers, without locking the ERE to the non-purchasers. The sword of islam dlc was able to get around the problem as muslim rulers were already unplayable before so the new decadence system didn't really affect the already playable characters.
 

Alerias

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I don't understand why everyone is saying that the orthodox religion doesn't work or isn't good enough.... what's bothering you so much??

Its weakass and devoid of unique advantages for the most part and doesnt account for large parts of orthodox uniqueness, like the multiple patriarchs, etc.

Theres room to improve it like Islam has been, for sure.
 

Lando_Viggo

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Well guys I fear this will be nothing but flavor sprites and music possibly. Already registering it in steam and they haven't dropped the slightest hint at a new patch like they did with SoI.
Many booster DLC is released without an announcement and this looks like it might just be flavor.

I'll buy it anyways. :p

seor-gif-shut-up-and-take-my-money.gif

Haha, that's great to hear. Although I appreciate a good expansion as much as the next guy, we do actually put a lot of time and effort into for instance the sprite packs (stuff like research, making thme look cool and so on ;) ), so it's always nice to hear that a lot of you appreciate them : )
 

LordNeidhart

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Haha, that's great to hear. Although I appreciate a good expansion as much as the next guy, we do actually put a lot of time and effort into for instance the sprite packs (stuff like research, making thme look cool and so on ;) ), so it's always nice to hear that a lot of you appreciate them : )

I, for one, welcome our new zombie roman legion sprite pack DLC.
 

darviathar

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Those that want to dispute the fact that Byzantium *IS THE ROMAN EMPIRE* need to read "Lost to the West" by Lars Brownworth.

As far as the DLC, I think it is safe to say that it is going to be centered around improving the Orthodox religion, and thus chiefly the Byzantine Empire. Remember that they initially did not plan to make Orthodox factions playable, but decided that they had to do so, since they were playable in CK 1.
 

SweArdaia

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Those that want to dispute the fact that Byzantium *IS THE ROMAN EMPIRE* need to read "Lost to the West" by Lars Brownworth.

As far as the DLC, I think it is safe to say that it is going to be centered around improving the Orthodox religion, and thus chiefly the Byzantine Empire. Remember that they initially did not plan to make Orthodox factions playable, but decided that they had to do so, since they were playable in CK 1.

I acually listened to both of his podcasts, he's a really good writor. Really want to read "Lost to the West".

On topic (sorry for further derailing this thread): I would really welcome a Orthodox/Byzzies DLC, Too bad there has yet to be any words about a pagan DLC even tough they are loosing ground, it'd be nice to be given the chance to kick Christianity back to the desert it came from (no offense to you christians out there), even with the ahistory
 
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unmerged(287474)

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire
Nomenclature
See also: Names of the Greeks

The first use of the term "Byzantine" to label the later years of the Roman Empire was in 1557, when German historian Hieronymus Wolf published his work Corpus Historiæ Byzantinæ, a collection of historical sources. The term comes from "Byzantium", the name of the city of Constantinople before it became the capital of Constantine. This older name of the city would rarely be used from this point onward except in historical or poetic contexts. The publication in 1648 of the Byzantine du Louvre (Corpus Scriptorum Historiæ Byzantinæ), and in 1680 of Du Cange's Historia Byzantina further popularised the use of "Byzantine" among French authors, such as Montesquieu.[7] However, it was not until the mid-19th century that the term came into general use in the Western world. As regards the English historiography in particular, the first occasion of the "Byzantine Empire" appears in a 1857 work of George Finlay (History of the Byzantine Empire from 716 to 1057).[8]

The Byzantine Empire was known to its inhabitants as the "Roman Empire", the "Empire of the Romans" (Latin: Imperium Romanum, Imperium Romanorum; Greek: Βασιλεία τῶν Ῥωμαίων Basileia tōn Rhōmaiōn, Ἀρχὴ τῶν Ῥωμαίων Archē tōn Rhōmaiōn), "Romania" (Latin: Romania; Greek: Ῥωμανία Rhōmania),[n 2] the "Roman Republic" (Latin: Res Publica Romana; Greek: Πολιτεία τῶν Ῥωμαίων Politeia tōn Rhōmaiōn), Graikia (Greek: Γραικία), and also as Rhōmais (Greek: Ῥωμαΐς).[11]

Although the Byzantine Empire had a multi-ethnic character during most of its history[12] and preserved Romano-Hellenistic traditions,[13] it became identified by its western and northern contemporaries with its increasingly predominant Greek element.[14] The occasional use of the term "Empire of the Greeks" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) in the West to refer to the Eastern Roman Empire and of the Byzantine Emperor as Imperator Graecorum (Emperor of the Greeks)[15] were also used to separate it from the prestige of the Roman Empire within the new kingdoms of the West.[16] The authority of the Byzantine emperor as the legitimate Roman emperor, was challenged by the coronation of Charlemagne as Imperator Augustus by Pope Leo III in the year 800. Needing Charlemagne's support in his struggle against his enemies in Rome, Leo used the lack of a male occupant of the throne of the Roman Empire at the time to claim that it was vacant and that he could therefore crown a new Emperor himself.[17] Whenever the Popes or the rulers of the West made use of the name Roman to refer to the Eastern Roman Emperors, they usually preferred the term Imperator Romaniae instead of Imperator Romanorum, a title that they applied only to Charlemagne and his successors.[n 3]

No such distinction existed in the Persian, Islamic, and Slavic worlds, where the Empire was more straightforwardly seen as the continuation of the Roman Empire. In the Islamic world it was known primarily as روم (Rûm "Rome").[19]

Also a critique on victorian revisionism on medieval times:

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/i-keep-meaning-to-writre-about-medieval-revisionism-and-asoiaf

Whys this matter? Because our history is written from a biased victorian perspective.
 

NewbieOne

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It's a language issue. To the medieval Christian, an "Emperor" was tied to the Roman Empire. It was a very specific title tied to a particular legacy. It's why the Holy Roman Emperor needed to be crowned by the Pope. And the Roman Empire had two Emperors: one in the west (which became vacant in the 5th century, but was later handed by the Pope to Charlemagne in 800) and one in the east (Constantinople). The problem from our perspective is that the words Emperor and Empire have a much more generalized meaning in modern language. Any country with a lot of land may be called an empire, even if no one in the country is called an emperor. Basically, it's a very informal term now, whereas it meant something much more formal and more specific in Medieval politics. This is the issue some people have with the new empires; they're one, made up, and two, even if some king did call himself an emperor (some kings in Spain tried off and on), the broader Christian world wouldn't likely have taken them seriously, unless something pretty dramatic had happened to the HRE or ERE. I actually think they'd be more interesting mechanics if they were tied to those titles. Something happens to wipe one of those empires out, and suddenly all bets are off, with everyone claiming to be the successor to Rome. (This is a bit closer to reality, anyway, as that's just what the Russians did, in a way.)

Edit: Anyway, this is getting somewhat off-topic. I apologize if I've helped derail the thread.

This is off-topic but I want to say I still remember about the ahistorical de iure empires and still think it's wrong to do that. The backbone of the philosophy and appeal of the EU/CK series is reconstruction at the starting point, from where you can take it wherever you want. But no fantasy at game start. De iure empires other than HRE, ERE and to some extent Spain are fantasy. (Titular empires would be okay. Titular Empire of Iceland would less offensive than a de iure empire of Russia, Scandinavia etc.)

I love how some people call the Holy Roman Empire to be neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire, but then in the same breath cheerish the abortion that was Byzantium (or, even less, Russia) as the "second" and "third" Rome./QUOTE]

*Gets popcorn*

Voltaire was being cheeky. It was a political comment about 18th century political reality.

"Third Rome" claim was based on the fall of Constantinople and dynastic marriage to a Palaiologos heiress, both of which happened after the end of CK2 gameplay.
 
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Deaghaidh

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I'd welcome either a Byzantine or HRE expansion. Imho, the Byzantine one would add more, as Byzantine politics and war differed from the fuedal christian world more. The decadence mechanic would suit the Byzantines as well or more than the muslims in my view.
 
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