News on Espionage/Sabotage/Intel system?

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JohnSheridan

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A while back quite some people wished a sabotage system. There was also a thread about what exactly this could be (wishes).

Does PDX has realesed any news on when, how, or if they make such a system?
 

Tim_Ward

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I'd like an espionage system (not just a 'sabotage' one, because those are shit. looking at you moo2) at some point, but in my opinion it's really not a priority given the other problems with the game.
 

JohnSheridan

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moo2 = master of orion2? Never played it. I loved a sabotage system in BotF, Birth od the Federation.

Yeah there are other issues in stellaris too, everyone has a different opinion what should be fixed first.

Anyone else knows something about PDX having twittert or something about an intelligence system?
 

Peko?

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Tim_Ward

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Before release, they said they'd like to do one but would need to come up with a good way of doing it. I definitely agree with this, I really like espionage as a concept but if it's just, like...

* dialogue box comes up *

"the baddies have blown up a mine on blahblahblah IV"

Then you find the world the fucking planet in the planet manager and click repair, and the actual effect on your empire is negligible as the cost of repairing a mine and all it actually does is annoying the player and waste their time then it really has no place in the game

Also, in release version there weren't enough actual mechanics in the game to have espionage be about. Spying is one of those systems that just needs a bunch of other game mechanics to interact with. Sounds like some of the stuff in Banks would be good fodder for spying, e.g. using espionage to try and shift the ethos of other empires in a particular direction, or simply backing certain factions for benevolent/nefarious reasons.

Like, imagine being a peaceful hippy empire but you want to annex someone because they're annoying you, so you use espionage to back xenophobic and militaristic elements within their empire, turn them into a nasty ass expansionistic empire and have the perfect justification to your own pops to attack them.
 
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JohnSheridan

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That sounds a bit hopefull.

Yet a guy told me in a thread they twittert they don´t do a esiponage system. Assuming its true the question is was it before or after the release? Release promisses?

I hope that there will be PDX or MOD Espionage system someday. Hopefully sooner then later.

Blowing up some ships to protect from war empires would be a nice protection for pacifists.
 

methegrate

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Mostly I'd be incredibly excited about an espionage system. Sabotage, I kind of agree, having just a pop up "something got blown up" feels like it would be more frustrating than fun.

But every time I want to start a war there's just a pile of information I wish I had. What are their ship designs? What's their tech? Where are their fleets, stations, warp inhibitors and mining platforms? Which planets should I demand in warscore? Will someone else help them out? Etc.

I'd lova a cool espionage system that could give me that kind of info.
 
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Zavaleta

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It was not listed in the game development roadmap Wiz posted a while back. So I would assume that they don't plan to add it until after all those listed features are implemented. Probably a wise move.
 

KonradKurze202

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Basically no info on an espionage system as of yet. Wiz and other devs have commented in the past that if/when they do espionage they'd want to do it right (meaning it would be the primary focus of a Patch/DLC), and 1.5/Banks main focus appears to be internal politics and economics. It is possible 1.6 will be focusing on Espionage, it is also possible it will focus on other things.

Basically: There are no concrete plans that we know of at the moment to create a full espionage system for Stellaris.
 

Surimi

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Again, I'm just going to say it.. there are very few strategy games which have ever made espionage fun. It's an incredibly difficult thing to get right. Tim Ward touched on some of the issues, but yeah.. there's too much danger of it either being an annoyance, an irrelevance which players will seldom bother with or something which feels unfair.

A great example is Civ 5. The espionage system in Civ 5 was really well designed from the standpoint of the game as a whole, because it got rid of a problem which has always been present in Civilisation games where one player will tech ahead of the others and just end up dominating. Espionage did a great job generally of spreading technologies from the most advanced players to less advanced players. But.. players really didn't like the system. It wasn't fun to use (just assign agents and wait an arbitrary number of terms while random chance determines what happens) and if you were the most advanced player it was incredibly frustrating because you were constantly losing advantages which you felt you'd worked hard to achieve. Sure, you could defend yourself to a limited extent by building certain buildings or counterespionage, but both were still fairly unreliable.

Unless there's a specific in-game niche which espionage can fill in Stellaris, and right now I don't think there is, I'm just not seeing how adding it would be a good idea, even in the above sense of being a good idea in terms of game balance despite not being fun to use.

Long term, I can see some cool stuff being done with espionage. Once the pop, ethic and faction systems are fully developed and fleshed out, for example, I could maybe see a role for espionage in terms of influencing those systems in other nations (funding or empowering factions, for example, or spreading propaganda to increase the attractiveness of ethics) but even then it would need to be carefully balanced so as not to be an annoying griefing engine when used against you.
 
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JohnSheridan

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I agree getting information by searching for them short before a war would be great. Maybe making the fleetstrenght no longer be so reliable so that we could spionage for them too?

About the sabotage: Yeah just things blowing things up is boring. Interaction is what makes sabotage systems great. Like allocating 80% of the spys to one empire, and that has to react by putting 80% in defence... that would leave both empires vunable for other empires spys & saboteurs. Maybe special ressources that give spionage bonuses that are fought for?

As well as not just sabotage of buildings and starshipts but also stuff like killing, obducting, torturing (for info and influence), or brainwashing (for getting access to them to work for us) leaders.
 

General Retreat

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A while back quite some people wished a sabotage system. There was also a thread about what exactly this could be (wishes).

Does PDX has realesed any news on when, how, or if they make such a system?
In my mind sabotage in Stellaris shouldn't be clicking on a tile and getting a percentage chance of the building exploding. Boring waste of potential.

What it should be is using agents to infiltrate enemy empires to gain Intel, establish cells and reveal and then manipulate domestic factions. Want to sabotage a building? Funnel resources into that empire's dissident factions and encourage them to carry out the attack.

Intelligence cells would grow over time and through invested resources, acting as an invisible faction. The more developed the cell is and the more skilled your agent is, the more influence it can exert in controlling local factions. Counter intelligence would allow for opposing cells to be revealed and direct action taken against them.
 
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Jean-Luc

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Again, I'm just going to say it.. there are very few strategy games which have ever made espionage fun.

True. While, in theory, I want an espionage system I'd probably be fine if one was never implemented. At best it's a very, very, very, very low priority for me compared to everything else this game could do....very low.
 

Kenshi

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In my mind sabotage in Stellaris shouldn't be clicking on a tile and getting a percentage chance of the building exploding. Boring waste of potential.

What it should be is using agents to infiltrate enemy empires to gain Intel, establish cells and reveal and then manipulate domestic factions. Want to sabotage a building? Funnel resources into that empire's dissident factions and encourage them to carry out the attack.

Intelligence cells would grow over time and through invested resources, acting as an invisible faction. The more developed the cell is and the more skilled your agent is, the more influence it can exert in controlling local factions. Counter intelligence would allow for opposing cells to be revealed and direct action taken against them.

Like your ideas. brother!
 
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TheWalkingLost

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I'd like to see a Knights of Honor-esqe system.

You recruit a leader(new catagory; Agents or Spies), and you send him/her to target Empire. Every time that empire recruits a leader their is a chance your spy will be picked up. If he is you are notified and have options based on the role he was recruited for.

Example; If he is recruited as an admiral, you can see that fleet. You may also have options like 'delay fleet', lowering their speed.
Example; If he is recruited as a Governor, you can influence factions present in his sector(or planet.)
Example; If he is recruited as a Scientist, you can try to steal research or slow research, etc.
 

Ixal

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Honestly I think a spy system would be a pretty low priority as the effect on the gameplay would be rather limited compared to other systems like trade etc.
 

Rubido

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Stellaris is an event driven game and i think the system with similar mechanics could be perfect match. Such as the one that was used in StarWars: Rebellion years ago (and was reborn as boardgame last year).

By selecting cards with missions you could send your agents to perform any sort of tasks: espionage, sabotage, info gathering, inciting unrest and rebellion on planets, abduction or assassination of enemy leaders. Most cards drawn at random (or can be picked from three or four variants) like one in five years (in the beginning), some can be obtained via events, other missions and work of your diplomats and spies. These "offensive" cards limited in how many you can have at the moment and some can be limited by time or its target.

You also have "defensive" cards. These are few (basically - counterespionage, rebels/ pirates suppression and some others) but can be used anytime with the cost of influence.

It can be really good if balanced properly.
 

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In my mind sabotage in Stellaris shouldn't be clicking on a tile and getting a percentage chance of the building exploding. Boring waste of potential.

What it should be is using agents to infiltrate enemy empires to gain Intel, establish cells and reveal and then manipulate domestic factions. Want to sabotage a building? Funnel resources into that empire's dissident factions and encourage them to carry out the attack.

Intelligence cells would grow over time and through invested resources, acting as an invisible faction. The more developed the cell is and the more skilled your agent is, the more influence it can exert in controlling local factions. Counter intelligence would allow for opposing cells to be revealed and direct action taken against them.

Holy cow, I think this is actually a really good way to go about it, and it gives me some further ideas. I'd personally like to see something along the lines of having a spy network that you can assign your general force to whatever empires (like a slider of 'power' distribution), but also having the ability to have individual spies/saboteurs rise up and become those "leader" characters (think like a Michael Westen/Jason Bourne/James Bond kind of guy, a cut above the rest). You could then have them go on missions, which could be something as simple as assigning them as the handler for the spies spying on a specific empire or region (kinda like assigning sector governors), or it could be a specific action/operation that would require time and resources to complete (not feeling creative enough to come up with an idea that wouldn't be a bore, though :\ ).

Even without the previous addition/changes to your idea, if two spies from hostile empires were to meet/operate in the same areas, it could generate chain events for both empires that could either play out for each empire in turns, or maybe an asymmetrical choice system (with both empires making decisions at the same time) that could determine what happens between the spies who are dog-fighting. Maybe during the event chain one spy kills the other due to a bad move? Maybe one is captured by the enemy, and is "interrogated". You could get intel about the enemy empire, or better yet, their 'noc list' so you could see what their spies are doing.

I'm probably thinking wayyyy too much into this, though.
 
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