Newbie Question: How do you deal with factions?

[swm]

I got CK II for Christmas and have just lost my first (well, second... first major) factional revolt.

Starting as an Irish duke, I had just won an invasion of England. I understand you're supposed to siege every holding in a kingdom you're invading so that you seize every holding, but I was out of troops and getting attacked by a third party so I had to miss 3 counties.

Now I thought I did everything else right. I handed out the counties one at a time; no one had control of more than 2 counties.
But one of the surviving English duchesses founded a claimant faction and since my levies were a bit dead she and her one follower had a disproportionate number of troops. So I assassinated the claimant. She found another, and another, and another... until I ran out of assassination money. She presented her demand for the Kingdom of England, and I predictably said no.

She revolted. What I don't understand is what happened next: Not only did she and her follower revolt, but she managed to call in (despite having no alliances) about a dozen of my counts (and still got a few thousand free-troops-from-nowhere standard to every faction revolt).

I've at this point quit the game without bothering to fight the war because there's no way I'm going to win. I'm hideously outnumbered. I have more factions forming in Ireland to overthrow me there. And my new king (the old one died a poorly timed natural death about a year before this) is a foreigner idiot (somehow got Greek culture). My only questions are:
1) Where did I go wrong? Yes, allowing a foreign-cultured, ambitious duke to live was a mistake but that doesn't seem like it should be enough to rip my realm in half.
2) Why was she able to "call" those people in (game's word - I'm not sure if this means they joined of their own initiative or she called them in as allies somehow)?
3) How could I have prevented that faction from forming? How could I have destroyed it after it formed? (Why can't I arrest people openly plotting against me? Isn't that treason?)
4) Is there a way to mod out either the free-troops-from-nowhere or the faction system in its entirety? Both of these features seem rather broken, at least from my (admittedly new and somewhat biased) point of view.

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

My standard answer:
Use your spymaster to scheme and your chancelor to improve relations above 65 at least, best above 80 or kill the strongest faction member. The last gives you at least some time.
The best way to avoid anything like this is having a high diplomacy ruler.

Besides that, factions are like a court full of whispering people hearing rumours. You need prove. Thats why its not treason, unless they plot against you outside the faction mechanic.
Not sure about 2 and 4.

You shouldnt have started in England. Try an easy game first to get used to the mechanics and the game in general, that is recommended by about everyone.
There is a reason Ireland is "Tutorial"-island.

 

[swm]

Scheme doesn't seem like it should be terribly useful. It has maybe a 20% yearly chance of stopping someone once (I've played 80+ years and gotten the event to stop someone from joining factions twice). It seems like there are too many vassals for one spymaster. Am I missing something?

As for this particular scenario:
Getting her to 65-80 is essentially impossible. She's at -100 and then some, and I have maybe a year between succession and faction war. Is there any way to save this or shall I start another game now?

Mildly off-topic: any recommendations for who to play as a newbie aside form Ireland? I was thinking some large HRE vassal.

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

Well, as mentioned above focus on the strongest partner in a faction (it show in percentage in the faction screen) as if the faction actually fires depends on its relative strength to you.

Post the spymaster in the capital of the person you want to scheme, get a good spymaster and one who likes you. He should'nt be slothfull or kind IIRC.

Kill the instigator (the duchess) instead of the claimant or if you can afford it regarding general relations (which you probably can't)
revoke the title or try to imprison her (to increase the chance: put your marshall there with the according job).
IF the imprisonment fails, she will revolt on here own. Better than a faction war.

If you lack levies, try to get mercenaries.

HRE: hard to say, but i will go with this: Brunswick, Burgundy, Bohemia, Friesland, Bavaria, whatever... ..oh wait. Tuscany of course.







PS: The difficulty setting showing when choosing a lord isn't right, especially for noobs. Rather play a small independent far away from potential conquerors or a strong vassal.

edit: sorry, skipped the early part when you said you actually started as an irish duke.

 

[Pinstar]

I normally send them to the province of the faction leader...not to scheme but to build spy network. When the faction pops, I have improved odds at murdering them in the face and instacrushing the revolt.

 

[icon41gimp]

You can't just go all-in with your levies with the idea that they'll renew themselves. Especially since an invasion basically wipes out any available men in the target zone, either from the conquered penalties or because the old vassals hate you.

Don't be afraid to use mercenaries when your levies could be considered too low. I believe they'll even count as your forces in the revolt calculation so if you've got money/income it may be worth it to let them stand for awhile after the invasion.

 

[yezhanquan]

Manage your vassals' opinions. If many counts are joining the revolt, it means they like the rebel more than you. Given where you are in the game, you have to consolidate all other vassals so that it's her vs. you and your entire court.

I do believe that you had to fight the so-called "doomstack" during the faction revolt. That is where the extra troops come from.

 

[Notho]

Always always ALWAYS have some with your nation's culture tutor your heir, so you don't get foreigner negative opinion. Also, I'm a fan of 'pruning' the ole familiy tree, if you know what I mean... In my current game, with my current ruler, I assassinated my imbecile heir so his younger brother would inherit. There are other ways to do it: I believe you can ship him off to a bishopric to negate his claim and make it so he won't marry, if your crown law lets you choose bishops. It saves you a lot of trouble down the road.

As for the rest, just do as others have said: Use your spymaster to influence the strongest members of the faction. Assassinating them is useful only if the guy's heir likes you more than he did. I've found they'll usually join the faction themselves if they don't like you. A spymaster with a 20 or better intrigue has around a 40% chance to influance the person per year, although it does seem to happen less often.

 

[Sopot]

The most effective way I've found to dealing with factions is to give powerful people gifts every so often, assuming of course that the person has an lower opinion of you than you'd like, best time for gifts is just when they come into power. If someone still has a low opinion of you, such as a different culture malus, send in your chancellor to improve relations, each time he is effective, you will get a +20 opinion boost that can stack up.

Also, keep an eye on plots, ignore all the plots that don't affect you(dukes plotting against thier wives etc) as you may need to use that as an excuse to arrest a faction member later on.

 

[Ithvan]

Excommunicate every single person you can that hates you. Even if they still hate you, even if you have no piety left, there's still a reasonable chance they'll get in some sort of war that depletes their levies while yours regenerate. If you've got the money, make some gifts so the people that hate you hate you a tiny little lit less while you're letting your levy bar fill up again. Ehh, I've never been a fan of the spymaster scheme action (although that's probably because I prefer playing empires as opposed to smallish kingdoms, and influencing just one duke never makes the relative % drop more than a few percent).

 

[grisamentum]

I got CK II for Christmas and have just lost my first (well, second... first major) factional revolt.
...I've at this point quit the game without bothering to fight the war because there's no way I'm going to win.

Assassinate the faction leader and the war will end automatically.

1) Where did I go wrong? Yes, allowing a foreign-cultured, ambitious duke to live was a mistake but that doesn't seem like it should be enough to rip my realm in half.

Relations are too low. Get more positive traits, get more diplomacy, don't exceed demesne limit too much, etc. It's relatively basic.

2) Why was she able to "call" those people in (game's word - I'm not sure if this means they joined of their own initiative or she called them in as allies somehow)?

She asked, and they liked her more than you. When you're revolting you can always call in vassals of your former liege.

3) How could I have prevented that faction from forming? How could I have destroyed it after it formed? (Why can't I arrest people openly plotting against me? Isn't that treason?)

Get relations about 65 or so. If you can't, use plots and assassins to destroy leaders. Use Chancellors to fabricate claims on their lands and preemptively seize their stuff.

4) Is there a way to mod out either the free-troops-from-nowhere or the faction system in its entirety? Both of these features seem rather broken, at least from my (admittedly new and somewhat biased) point of view.

Yes, just delete the relevant event. That said, it doesn't matter and it's fine.

 

[grisamentum]

Excommunicate every single person you can that hates you. Even if they still hate you, even if you have no piety left, there's still a reasonable chance they'll get in some sort of war that depletes their levies while yours regenerate. If you've got the money, make some gifts so the people that hate you hate you a tiny little lit less while you're letting your levy bar fill up again. Ehh, I've never been a fan of the spymaster scheme action (although that's probably because I prefer playing empires as opposed to smallish kingdoms, and influencing just one duke never makes the relative % drop more than a few percent).

Uh, if you can excommunicate someone, you can just arrest them anyway. Nobody objects to imprisonment of an excommunicated person.

 

[Arokel]

I've found murder to be effective. Then again murder is very effective in most fields.

 

[NewbieOne]

You need good relations with your vassals. This is basically similar to dealing with successions in many regards (look in my signature): seeing if they want some land you could actually give them, obviously getting rid of your excess demesne or duchy titles, putting the capable ones on your council (if they aren't significantly less good than a courtier you could otherwise appoint), handing out honorary titles (Master of the Horse, Cupbearer etc.) and gifts. Don't waste titles where a small, e.g. default 20, gift would do (it won't last forever but it may carry you to better times). Remember that an honorary title always gives the same opinion bonus and always costs you, well, one title, regardless of how powerful or rich the recipient. This means it works the same on a multiduke as it does on a count with 1 province. This applies to other personal bonuses, such as the one from marriage (there is an "allowed marriage" opinion modifier, by the way) or tutoring (+20 per qualified child but I wouldn't use your children in this way unless the vassal actually made good tutor).

Also, you don't have to give desired baronies, counties and duchies to those people who desire them. Just simply getting rid of them removes the malus. But obviously don't give the title to someone who can easily lose a de iure claim war with that guy.

Don't hesitate to put counts under dukes when counts are your direct vassals while belonging in a duke's de iure duchy. You're probably not taxing feudal vassals anyway and you still get levies anyway. So it's just a matter of the duke possibly getting too powerful but it's better to have a powerful but pleased duke than a duke who's slightly less powerful but definitely more upset. Especially below high crown authority remember that they can take by force what you don't give to them, and then you won't get the relationship bonus from granting a title to them. Especially when both the count and the duke give you problems, this can pacify both of them in one sweep.

When a faction does rebel, don't despair. That too is part of the game, it doesn't necessarily mean a failure on your part as a player. Also, you don't need to fight all of them. Just go to the principal belligerent (the rebel whose portrait you see above the war score) and siege his holdings until 100%. I've seen AI kings of England put down massive rebellions headed by a 1-county count leader this way. They just went to his sole county, assaulted everything, it was 100%, war over, his allied dukes in jail along with him.

 

[Beagá]

I've found murder to be effective. Then again murder is very effective in most fields.

Indeed, pity it can cost so many monies.

Also, relations can´t save you always and I had my share of trouble with people with more than 50 relations with me... But yes, overall the better your relations the less chance of factions achieving critical mass. Don´t forget to use the spymaster´s Scheme mission as well.

Question, what determines with Scheme fails or suceeds in removing someone from a faction? Your Intigue rating? Relations?

 

[pplr]

Murder can be effective but I usually let the revolt happen and put it down and imprison the leader. Then I release the person after some time for +10 due to mercy.

I will admit revolts and civil wars can be a distraction but if you win them you get a bit of prestige. I currently have a foreign tradition person on the throne-it seems like getting Basque tradition is the only way to change the law so you can appoint women as barons and counts.

I don't plan on having a foreign ruler very often (I use elective succession) but it is worth for me to set down a law I can use for the rest of my current game.