Newbie Q: How do I -win- battles?

[unmerged(25223)]

Hi all,

I'm new to the game, and have been playing Spain in the IGC. (Yes, I've been lurking here for a few days, learning from some of the useful postings. Thanks to everyone who's posted to explain trade, TPs and COTs.)

Anyway ... this evening, I got grumpy. It was just past Beltane, in Anno Domini 1533, and I'd a nice little bunch of TPs and Cols in the Carribean. At this point, the power went to my head, and I decided I'd had enough of those heretic Navarre Catholics. (Oh - whoops ... they're the same True Faith as me. Ah well ... they have some money and I want it, so that makes them evil.)

So, I built up armies around them, waited for our alliance to expire (*blush* Some ally I am!), and then DoWd them.

I sent an army with a general into their province, and beat up their army.

Great! That'll teach them to ... live next door to me. (I really do need a more impressive reason to declare war.)

Except ... their army retreated to one of my provinces - which already had an army in it. They got pumelled there, and retreated again, and again.

Eventually, they retreated into a province in which I -didn't- have an army, so they immediately pillaged the province (Owch!). Then, I played tag-pillage through all my southern provinces.
(To add insult to injury, they kept offering me peace if -I'd- pay -them-. That wasn't quite what I'd had in mind...)

How am I supposed to kill armies? Do I have to keep a large army in all of my provinces, and play Navarrean Football until they run out of army?
I'm sure that there has to be a better option than that!

M_W

 

[Nikolai II]

Use more cavalry.

When enemy retreats from battle the cavalry will hunt them down and hurt them (one final strike) and if you have enough cavalry the enemy will be destroyed.

Or play tag-team.. sad but true. But surrounding them first will whittle them slowly down to nothing..

 

[unmerged(25223)]

Thanks for the advice.

To an ex Civ/Colonisation (etc) player, that's a tough nut to swallow, though.

It sure changes the way I think about combat. It sounds like I need to build up an army in every Spanish mainland province before attacking Navarre. That's very expensive!
It'd have to be of comparable strength to Navarre's, because I tried again, and left a small army in each province. On one occasion the fleeing Navarreans beat the defenders in Sierra Nevada (I didn't think it was worth having more than 5k there - how likely were they to bounce -that- far!) and therefore trounced the province.
On the face of that, I'd need a good fifteen times their army before invading - most of those troops will be scattered through the rest of the peninsula. That makes it probitively expensive to attack anyone with a stack larger than about 20 ... yet I'm sure people do so. What have I missed?

You mention Cavalry. I'm puzzled. I'm sure I've read a few posts here saying that cavalry in mountains are useless, and effectively saying that we should leave them at home when attacking into the mountains. Given that Navarre is mountainous, I'd only taken a couple of thousand cav. How do those two ideas ("more cav = more enemy casualties" and "don't take horses up mountains") work together?

 

[Nikolai II]

You are posting in the EU1 forum - here cavalry still rules supreme

Cavalry power might be halved in mountains, but that means it is still twice as strong as as infantry.

If you have reached the level where infantry gets guns you might want to include some infantry as well, else you can rule with just cavalry. (Although when muskets begin to appear you will most likely want to start using some infantry..)

If possible you could just ignore the Navarrese fugitive army in your lands - keep one large force besieging his lands and one large force hunting his army or retaking the provinces he takes from you. In the end it matters not a whit if he has pillaged all of Spain - as long as you control all his provinces and he controls none of yours you can annex him (and get his surviving armies to boot).

 

[Cow Pie]

If possible you could just ignore the Navarrese fugitive army in your lands - keep one large force besieging his lands and one large force hunting his army or retaking the provinces he takes from you. In the end it matters not a whit if he has pillaged all of Spain - as long as you control all his provinces and he controls none of yours you can annex him (and get his surviving armies to boot).

The best plan by far, maybe bounce them around once or twice so that you don't have to worry about them taking your provinces.

 

[unmerged(11600)]

Drive them out of their own province, and when they're in yours, keep attacking on the last day of the month and then retreat on the first. True, you'll be 'losing' battles, but the attrition will take a far higher toll on them than it will on you.

-Pat

 

[Morpheus506]

I would advise NII's strategy, with the siege army in Navarra and the army smacking them around. The attack army whould be almost all cavalry, so you can quickly respond to any threat and still eat them alive--plus since they're in Spain and not mountainous Navarra, the cavarly will still be at full efficiency.

 

[unmerged(21523)]

Another thing to remember in this game is that wars are decided by the number of enemy provinces you control vs. the number of your provinces the enemy controls. Pillaging is inconvient, but it does no permanent damage to the province (unless you've built a manufactory there-protect those provinces). The AI likes to send armies in do serial pillaging, which is annoying but essentially harmless, it's when they settle down to seige one of your provinces, then you should get worried, so long as you keep them away from your manufactories, let them pillage to their heart's content. Focus on taking Navarra's one province, then you can dictate peace on your terms no matter if they've pillaged all Iberia.

 

[unmerged(25223)]

Miscellaneous spin off questions ...

Thanks for the advice. I'll try it when I get home tonight.
(Yes, I'm posting in my lunch break. And at the start of the day. I'm really not an addict (see other thread) )

I was concerned at the damage that pillaging seemed to be doing, but it sounds like you just ignore it.
It also sounds like I'm wasting money buying large infantry armies as Spain. I'm reading you as saying that I need one "Seige Army" of infantry and cannon, and spend all other money on (separate) cav armies. Is that true?
Does it still hold in the New World?
(It's hard to see cav being effective in the Amazon rainforest, somehow. Mind you, infantry formations don't seem any more appropriate...)

Speaking of pillaging - I had a confuzzling experience last night. I colonised an African province and eventually turned it to a city (thus absorbing any remaining natives). There was a small army sitting in there (less than support limit) just in case anyone got tricky.
Then, suddenly, the province was "pillaged". My army was still there, intact. no-one had invaded the province - or even DoWd me.
Where did the pillaging come from? It's hard enough keeping positive growth there, without randomly losing another -5.

Meantime, though ... I'll restart, and teach those Navarreans why they're living in the wrong place...

 

[unmerged(21523)]

Thanks for the advice. I'll try it when I get home tonight.
(Yes, I'm posting in my lunch break. And at the start of the day. I'm really not an addict (see other thread) )

I was concerned at the damage that pillaging seemed to be doing, but it sounds like you just ignore it.
It also sounds like I'm wasting money buying large infantry armies as Spain. I'm reading you as saying that I need one "Seige Army" of infantry and cannon, and spend all other money on (separate) cav armies. Is that true?
Does it still hold in the New World?
(It's hard to see cav being effective in the Amazon rainforest, somehow. Mind you, infantry formations don't seem any more appropriate...)

Speaking of pillaging - I had a confuzzling experience last night. I colonised an African province and eventually turned it to a city (thus absorbing any remaining natives). There was a small army sitting in there (less than support limit) just in case anyone got tricky.
Then, suddenly, the province was "pillaged". My army was still there, intact. no-one had invaded the province - or even DoWd me.
Where did the pillaging come from? It's hard enough keeping positive growth there, without randomly losing another -5.

Meantime, though ... I'll restart, and teach those Navarreans why they're living in the wrong place...

Pillaged provinces give less income, but it's a temporary effect. The provinces make full recovery after a few months (I forget exactly how many). Cavalry are useless in seige but great in combat, so try to build inf/cav armies to fight your enemies and inf/art armies to take his provinces. In regard to your pillaged colony, you probably had a native revolt. They usually don't last long since natives are generally bad fighters who rarely inflict heavy casualties on your army but the province will be considered pillaged due to the fact that fighting was done there.

 

[Nikolai II]

I was concerned at the damage that pillaging seemed to be doing, but it sounds like you just ignore it.
It also sounds like I'm wasting money buying large infantry armies as Spain. I'm reading you as saying that I need one "Seige Army" of infantry and cannon, and spend all other money on (separate) cav armies. Is that true?
Does it still hold in the New World?
(It's hard to see cav being effective in the Amazon rainforest, somehow. Mind you, infantry formations don't seem any more appropriate...)

Speaking of pillaging - I had a confuzzling experience last night. I colonised an African province and eventually turned it to a city (thus absorbing any remaining natives). There was a small army sitting in there (less than support limit) just in case anyone got tricky.
Then, suddenly, the province was "pillaged". My army was still there, intact. no-one had invaded the province - or even DoWd me.
Where did the pillaging come from? It's hard enough keeping positive growth there, without randomly losing another -5.

One or possibly two cavalry armies should do the trick - I have heard of it to be a common tactic to first send in a large force - all cavalry (or later a mixed force) and when they have defeated the opposition you press the 'cover' button, move this 'fighting armay' onwards and send in the siege force (of infantry and cannon)

Pillaging removes income (possibly only tax income) from the province for a year (until the small fires die out). It is good to avoid - but it is only money.

Cavalry manages OK against native nations, but to really kill them at minimum cost you load up a good conquistador with a large force of infantry (at least with CRT 3) and assault their every province. You'll have guns, they won't, end of story

And pillaging can only happen at the end of the month, while rebels (natives were gone) appear at the start of a month.. But if you have rebels in a province at the end of a month (whether you are fighting them or not) they will loot/pillage the province.
If you had no rebels right then there is some sort of (reasonably rare) bug with provinces w/o good connection home that can cause soldiers to loot their own provinces indefinitely, so if the pillaging has lasted for more than a year you should move your army out (by then you can put your trust in your fortifications)

 

[unmerged(25223)]

Strange pillaging (cont)...

That pillaging happened again (new game).

This time I was watching for it, so I took notice. It was in Dakar this time. There were no natives at all - they accidentally died when I landed my army. (Damn - the reason I chose that province was -because- of the large numbers of low aggro natives. I guess 4k infantry was too many for a 8k native pop.)
So ... no natives, no enemy troops. No mention of any revolts.
It happened immediately after expanding the colony, though. I've been pushing it towards stable growth (1000 people?) so have been sending colonists as soon as the last batch finished.
This time, as soon as the 6th colonist completed its task - voila, pillaging.

Is there some indicator to say that you can only upgrade a colony at a certain speed?

 

[Nikolai II]

Is there some indicator to say that you can only upgrade a colony at a certain speed?

Nope - I'd say it is a bug. If the troops keep pillaging you should walk them away - if it is a one-time pillaging you'd better consider it a 'yee-haw party' of you that the colony is completed..

And 700 means 'no longer shrink below 700', 1000 (and/or 1200) reduces growth penalty and 5000 (iirc) does away with it completely.

 

[yatima2975]

Nope - I'd say it is a bug. If the troops keep pillaging you should walk them away - if it is a one-time pillaging you'd better consider it a 'yee-haw party' of you that the colony is completed..

I think the pillaging is caused by the fact that the province in question has a support limit that is too low for the army stationed there, which causes pillaging. That pillaging happens irregardless of whether the army is stationed in your or your enemy's territory.

 

[Nikolai II]

I think the pillaging is caused by the fact that the province in question has a support limit that is too low for the army stationed there, which causes pillaging. That pillaging happens irregardless of whether the army is stationed in your or your enemy's territory.

I never saw that in my own provinces though - my armies usually just withered away and died without issue before I learned that attrition existed during summertime as well

 

[unmerged(25223)]

More pillaging...

In the fresh game, I took another West African province (Louga) and tried to preserve the natives. That was an expensive tactic - I lost a few tiny armies, in trying to find a balance that would win the battle but leave as many natives alive as possible. (Any rule-of-thumb for this?)
I ended up with a situation where I had a colony that became a city, absorbing the last natives. The remnants of the army were a mere 160 soldiers. (Too close for comfort!)
They pillaged the place, again. *sigh*
I took them out onto a boat, and then returned them to the province.
They pillaged it again. *grumble*
I shipped them off to the Canaries; pillaging stopped.

However, part of the point of having a city, rather than a L1/L2 colony, was to be able to muster troops there.
So ... I raised an army of 1k.
It pillaged the province.

What am I missing? I've done similar in the Carribean without this happening, but 4 games in a row it's happened in West Africa. Grr...

 

[Nikolai II]

Hmm.. Maybe yatima2975 was right then.. I don't know, it didn't usually happen to me..

But if it has with supply/support numbers to do then building a fort should/could help.

 

[unmerged(25223)]

Hmm... Will research these ideas...

Thanks for the tips.

I doubt that it would be the support limit - if a province can't support 160 infantry (not 160K, but 160 soldiers), then it's hard to imagine what it -can- support. Unless, of course, there are provinces that can't support anything.
I'll build a L1 fort there, and see if that helps...

 

[Stonewall]

Thanks for the tips.

I doubt that it would be the support limit - if a province can't support 160 infantry (not 160K, but 160 soldiers), then it's hard to imagine what it -can- support. Unless, of course, there are provinces that can't support anything.
I'll build a L1 fort there, and see if that helps...

Are you the only country with troops in that province? Dakar is a Portugese ToT zone, and since you are same religion, they are allowed to move through that territory without your permission. It could be that the Portugese have a small army moving through when the end of the month triggers, thus your pillaging.

 

[unmerged(25223)]

Dakar ...

I was the only army there for quite some time.

However, I left the province empty, waited for it to recover from pillaging, and then saved & reloaded the game.
From that point on, I've been able to send armies in there without a problem.

I'm guessing that it's a "random" glitch from some internal flag not being cleared around the time of the original battles.