Newbie in despair

[Garuda]

I am in my third attempt at a game of Stellaris and have suffered the same issues in all three games that leave me somewhat disheartened.

I see empires forging alliances and defensive pacts, but never with me - its a cold unfriendly universe out there. It seems to me that proposing any sort of friendly diplomatic overture is a complete waste of a mouse click.

Instead what I get is aggressive warmongering empires and FEs for nextdoor neighbours and the inevitable doomstack that ends my game. Each doomstack I see is many times the firepower of my maximum possible fleet build - every time. And hours of peaceful empire building is gone in no time at all as the doomstack hops from system to system destroying everything. There is no defence to offer. There are no allies to offer you hope.

I am not the sort of player who thrives on adversity. I am not the sort of player who is happy to continue playing a defeated empire with only a single a fragment of rock remaining for the last remnant of my pops to cling to.

Why does this game feel so unfriendly and unforgiving for fledgling players? In CK2, EUIV & Victoria - defeat in a war does not mean all is lost - you can cede ground and still pick up the pieces - but in Stellaris everything is destroyed in a single war and you're left with pretty much nothing.

Stellaris is a cruel galaxy. I am left lonely and dispirited. I am bereft of all hope. Someone please, just shove me out of the air lock.....

 

[Bryartuck]

There are settings in the game setup you can adjust to mitigate some of that. No advanced AI, no clustered start, fewer AI empires, fewer FEs, more habitable planets.

As far as defensive pacts and such, spend some time trying to build up relations with who you want to ally with. Don't try to ally with someone who is ethically opposite of you. Start with some small trade deals and work up to build up trust and relations. Also, make sure your fleet is built up. If they perceive you as being weak, they will attack.

 

[elitesix]

The secret to making friends, other than luck and not playing xenophobes, is to carefully use rivalry to get a mutual rivalry bonus with an empire you're trying to ally with, and to pay 300-1000 minerals/energy as gifts to convince some nations to join a non-aggression pact with you.

 

[Redshift]

I myself needed several tries to find out how to play and interact with other nations. So don't give up.

Whether a xeno nation likes or dislikes you is mostly dependent on your goverment ethos and the ethos of the other nation. My standard approach is to support independence if a newly discovered nation doesn't outright hate me (mostly if the number is not lower than -10 to -15, if the number is much lower chances are high that relationships will get worse). With supporting independence you will build up trust. After a while you are able to ask for defensive pacts and maybe even to get member of a federation. Sometime it even helps to offer some one sided deals in which you give minerals or energy, star charts etc. for free. The amount of the positive green number in the trading window will be a measure on how much the opinion will rise up. If it is high you will get much additional opinion boost and if its low only a small opinion boost. This opinion boost is temporary but can help to get defensive pacts or federation invites.

There are ethos which won't allow you to have a good standing with other nations. For example if you play a fanatic purifier (militarist or collectivist together with fanatic xenophobe) other nations will not like you or another nation having these ethos will outright hate you (independent of your ethos).

Stellaris is an asome game and if you keep on trying you will have some fun with it.

Read the forums...it helps a lot.

 

[Meneliki]

Hi Garuda,

What kind of ethics are you using in your empires? If you're playing Xenophobe and or using the repugnant trait, you might run into problems with diplomacy. Everyone's gonna hate you! Also your policies will have a bearing on how much diffrent empires like you.

You might consider setting up a diplomatic empire - go for xenophile, maybe take charismatic, that sortof thing. You'll find yourself invited to (and be able to propose) alot more defensive pacts/alliances. Also, for your first few playthroughs, you might consider disabling fallen empires entirely.. as they're in a wierd spot right now where they can litterally just up and end the game on you.

Hope this helps!

 

[LordMagus]

Hey buddy, either you're playing with advanced start AI on, or you're getting unlucky with neighbours. The AI can and will build over their fleet limit in the early game. If you pick xenophile as an ethos, you'll find non-aggression packs and defensive treaties are a lot easier to get into (although you probably won't get into a federation due to how differing war ethics just prevents you from doing so).
If you think war is brutal now, you should have seen the game earlier when ceding planet war goal was cheaper and you could gain/lose loads of planets at once.

 

[garbud]

ive found that supporting independence is a cheap why to gain some early trust witch in turn makes getting non-aggression pacts a lot easier

 

[Garuda]

Hi Garuda,

What kind of ethics are you using in your empires? ...[snip]...

All three games I chose the ready made United Nations of Earth.

Game 1. Standard set up under full tutorial. Lasted about thirty to forty years when the neighbour's doomstack dropped by to say hello.

Game 2. Same start. Got hemmed in by 2xFEs and 2 other empires. A closed border situation cut my empire in two as it seemed I needed to use a system as a way point that fell behind enemy control. When another neighbour dowed me I could not send my fleet from the southern half of my empire to defend the north. The numbers were academic anyway.

Game 3. Different set up. No advanced nations. 12 alien nations plus 2x FEs. No near neighbours. Low AI aggressiveness. Random placement. Lasted much longer - over a hundred years. Was having fun until the Vrool dropped by. I had a maxed out fleet with over 2.5k power. The Vrool had a fleet with some 14k fire power. Their demands were generous enough to leave me with a backwater rock populated by a single human pop and a couple of droids in the middle-of-nowhere-with-no-recourses system.

I played another game after posting this thread.

Game 4. A custom race. Miitaristic, xenophobic one - I thought if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Same set up as game 3 to give me at least an equal start and some space around me. It lasted nine years. Another race had started just three systems away and was first to the best system lying between us. I dowed them for it (my first aggressive action in Stellaris) afterall I started with a level playing field and I've maxed out my fleet. Oh dear. My neighbours had a fleet three times the power of mine in just eight years. In 2209 I capitulated.

This game is harsh on beginners.




EDIT. Forgot to say thanks for all the positive comments and tips posted above. They'll be put to good use in game 5.

 

[LordMagus]

Game 3. Different set up. No advanced nations. 12 alien nations plus 2x FEs. No near neighbours. Low AI aggressiveness. Random placement. Lasted much longer - over a hundred years. Was having fun until the Vrool dropped by. I had a maxed out fleet with over 2.5k power. The Vrool had a fleet with some 14k fire power. Their demands were generous enough to leave me with a backwater rock populated by a single human pop and a couple of droids in the middle-of-nowhere-with-no-recourses system.

Sorry dude, but if you only have 2.5K power a hundred years in, you'll get destroyed. Any idea how many planets you had colonised before the war started?

Another race had started just three systems away and was first to the best system lying between us. I dowed them for it (my first aggressive action in Stellaris) afterall I started with a level playing field and I've maxed out my fleet. Oh dear. My neighbours had a fleet three times the power of mine in just eight years. In 2209 I capitulated.

Look, AI have an easier start in the game than you, but due to their suboptimal ship designs, planets, and silly military tactics, they are easy to beat if you know how.
Early wars against the AI are generally a bad idea, as they tend to pump a lot of resources into building their fleet, and WILL build over their fleet limit. So assuming you'll have an equivalent fleet to them early on when you both have the same amount of worlds, is a bad assumption to make.

But due to them pumping resources into building an early fleet, it means that if you build up just high enough a fleet to prevent early conquest, or secure non-aggression or defensive pact, you will outproduce them by improving your buildings and building mining stations.
Specifically, some players have pointed out that your first goal in the game, is to claim as much space as possible rather than just the best planets. The reason for this is that mining stations/orbital resources have the best ROI early in the game, and planets take ages to pay for themselves until later in the game. Additionally, you should prioritise building T1 buildings for everybody before upgrading them to T2, DO NOT RUSH T2 buildings! The improvement in resource gain costs more minerals, making it a poor ROI, invest in other things first (mining stations, expanding your borders for more orbital resources).

 

[TerrBear]

You want to be keeping an eye on your relations with neighbours and your comparative military strength, I find with stellaris regardless of if you want to be an aggressive player you HAVE to be aggressive with expansion,
You want to be using your frontier outposts well to either grab a lot of valuable planets with energy and/or minerals OR use it to hem in unfriendly neighbours and if possible rob nearby planets from the that they would have colonised otherwise (you can check their planet preference on the diplomacy screen).
I don't usually attack my nearest neighbour till they're at pathetic strength in comparison otherwise you're wasting resources fighting a close war.
tributary war goal is a great one to choose early on as it'll boost your production quite a lot and you can always just smash them again later if you end up wanting their planets.

Unless you want to game the ai by sending tiny fleets to keep drawing it away from your planets in a war the best thing you can do is try and always be prepared for a war with those that are rivalling you - choose the navy capacity techs in research for more naval capacity, build tons of energy buildings so you can happily go over capacity (remember that keeping your ships in 'dock' saves energy so do that while not using them) rival them back and see who else they are rivalling as they will most likely sign a defensive pact or at least non-aggression so you can start moving towards one.

Best thing that can happen is you're near a fanatic purifier as they're total spuds and will rival basically everyone around them which so long as you meet all his other neighbours early enough will give you tons of friends.

 

[NHunter_rus]

1. As others have said, unless you're good, avoid using advanced start AIs and clustered starts.

2. Even if if will not help your science much, try to get 3-4 colonies as soon as possible. Raw resource income + spaceports to increase your fleet cap will let you build up your military power much faster, thus making the AI less likely to attack you. Do note that larger planets are preferable. Don't colonize a planet that is less than 16 tiles unless securing that system will let you deny AIs resources or planets that you yourself can't colonize (yet). Also, try to keep your borders connected - protecting a connected empire is much easier.

3. You should have at least 7, better 10 corvettes + admiral ready as soon as feasible. It will serve both as a deterrent to AIs and will let you deal with the pirate event as soon as possible.

4. Diplomacy... In general, if everyone starts even, you are probably better on your own than in federation. Yet, having a few non-aggression pacts with your neighbors will be helpful (but don't box yourself in that way).

 

[Ezumiyr]

You should have way more fleet power after 100 years in game than 2.5K. There must be something you're doing wrong.
- How many planets did you have? Maybe you should be more aggressive with colonization. It really depends on the size of the galaxy and the amount of habitable planets, but you should quickly have 4-5 planets to start with. Then you'll see if you can still expand through colonization, or if you need/prefer to conquer.
- Focus on minerals. Try to get credits only when you lack of it. Science is nice but it's not the priority.
- Sign all the treaties you can. As you progress through the game, either you'll need them to start federations, or the AI will break them as you become the bad guy. With an empire like the Earth Federation you should find something like 3 or 4 empires to sign treaties with (non-agression treaties probably), 1 or two of them might become defensive pacts after 20-30 years if you do nothing to make it faster. It can be faster if AI empires feel endangered. Try to exploit any oppotunity (even if there's less of them in Stellaris than in EU4 or CK2)
- build spaceports when you have "too much" minerals (yeah I know, you never have too much minerals, but just try to have a bigger fleet)
- In doubt, give the priority to spaceport upgrades, so you can have all types of ships. Otherwise, just get better weapons/shields/whatever makes your fleet stronger.

More generally, I feel like you need to be more aggressive. Stellaris is much more a real time strategy game than any other Paradox games, even if it's less true than it used to be (since normally it's now impossible to rush early). This means that you can't really remain on your own in your corner of the galaxy, except if you are really lucky: you have to choose between expansion through conquest and/or colonization (there are various ways to do that, either conquest&assimilate, conquest&enslave, conquest&purge...) and friends withing a federation.
The only way to build a peaceful empire who doesn't need anyone else is to blob through colonization - you need to be so big that nobody will dare attacking you.

You can't play alone and little in Stellaris. It means insta-game over in most cases.

 

[LordMagus]

you need to be so big that nobody will dare attacking you.

Basically you have to become isolationist USA, the big blob that nobody really wants to rumble with. Federations are a bit too limiting and so diplomacy isn't the best way to secure your independence, it's blobbing hard.

 

[GamerSteve]

Ezumiyr definitely has the right of it.

Make sure you are building those starports on every world ASAP. I know it is hard to afford them early on, but upgraded (as best you can) starports will dramatically increase your fleet capacity.

Always, and I mean always, build to your fleet capacity. I know it is hard, with so many things to prioritize, but the AI empires assess your empires power based on naval capacity and individual fleet power. So if you had three or four 2.5K fleets instead of 1, your enemy with 14k might have judged you too powerful to attack.

The old Reagan motto of 'Peace Through Strength' is the first principle of Stellaris. If you're strong, you won't be attacked. If you're weak, you will be.

There is no real way to get other empires to like you. Xenophile helps, but it is a crap shoot because most of their attitude depends on politics. If you are a collectivist xenophile materialist and get a xenophobe spiritualist individualist next to you, he's going to hate you no matter what.

 

[Doomsong]

Yeah you should always expand but prepare for war in early game as you never know who might be next door. You might consider pic oligarchy early for boosted starting growth. Then try to re-roll game few times to get good starting latices and leader. If you get on top leader with cheaper station construction you can quickly claim vast areas of space.

Main problem with stellaris is that sometimes you are dead but just not know it untill 3h later. I just found out in my latest hyperlane game that very expansive AI got a much better start than me. It still has not managed to colonize entire free space it got. It simply got placed with 1/3 of galaxy for itself. On top of it AI bewen us are similiar ethos to him hate me and became his vassals rather than to face my liberation fleet. Closest same ethic empire is on the other end of galactic ring.

 

[Tyrannical Prince]

If you find yourself up against a superior fleet, here's a trick; DO NOT ENGAGE.

There are many other options you can employ in spite of being in a bad position.
One trick is to send a ship or 2 into their space to force their fleet into defense mode.
Depending on your ftl and their ftl, this can be kept up indefinitely until you have a comparable fleet.
If building a comparable fleet is out of the question then you'll have to go on the offensive.

1. Being aware of how the different ftl's move is very important.
The wormhole ftl is great for surgical strikes but is awful in maneuver warfare, because the fleet always has to return to a wormhole station.
Hyper lanes are fast but depending on their lanes can leave gaps that other ftl's can exploit
Warp is usually what I go with, and while it's not as fast as hyper lane or has the range of wormhole, it does allow you to exploit the other two ftl's if you know what you're doing.

2. You have to know where the enemy fleet is. I achieve this by having a few single corvets flying throughout their space, always keeping out of range of their fleet.

3. You have to know where the enemy fleet is going; in-system, between systems and it's ultimate target. Keeping your fleet out of range of a superior fleet is important. You'll also need to know which system the fleet is currently traveling to and where in that system the fleet will arrive. Knowing this will allow you to avoid their fleet while hitting lots of little targets. Oh and before I go further, the ai will regularly send out construction ships to rebuild what you just destroyed, so I usually place a corvet in the middle of each system to prevent that. Against wormholes, this tactic is amazing and allows you to destroy their wormhole stations bit by bit. Knowing the ultimate target of the enemy fleet will allow you to lure their fleet to where you want it to be, You must be careful because their target will shift a lot if you have lots of little fleets.

One thing you can do is target all his energy production, depending on his reserves, you may be able to significantly reduce his fleet power.

4. Invading planets is how you're going to win the war, so at the minimum your main fleet must be able to take out star ports efficiently. Once that's done, you simply send in a superior invasion force and send your fleet to the next planet you intend to invade.

5. Eventually your enemy will surrender without you ever having to engage his fleet.

This Doctrine may not be as satisfying as seeing a massive space battle but it does take a lot of work and allow you to win against a superior enemy (except FE).

 

[Hertzila]

I'll echo the general sentiment that expansion of both your fleet and colonies is vital to keep yourself competetive and independent. "Si vis pacem, para bellum" and all that. Building a federation could help you as well, but federations with AI are RNG-crapshoots and not very recommended. Defensive pacts work better, if you can get and afford them. Best way to gain the trust of other empires is to do long-term trade agreements with them, in my experience.

Plan your colonies well in advance and do not be afraid to spend tons of influence on your colonies and frontier outposts. The core idea is to snatch the territory first before colonizing the best worlds and developing the territory. This way you should have plenty of "free" space to colonize and build up as well. It also denies your enemies the chance to enroach on your territory.

You should also be picky on which exact planets to colonize and when, if you can. Prioritize bigger planets and planets with lots of resources and colonize smaller planets second, unless there's a special reason to colonize one. In particular, avoid planets under 10 slots if you can at all help it. If I remember correctly, 10 is the size in which a small planet becomes able to "pay itself back" from research penalties and such. Unless you really need the undersized planet as a border marker, do not colonize.

1.5 is planned to deliver some features to allow more peaceful empire-building to remain competetive, but even then, "para bellum."

 

[Meneliki]

All three games I chose the ready made United Nations of Earth.

Game 1. Standard set up under full tutorial. Lasted about thirty to forty years when the neighbour's doomstack dropped by to say hello.
Probably some kind of Purifier/Evangelist neighbor - if that was the case, I'd chalk that up to bad luck.

Game 2. Same start. Got hemmed in by 2xFEs and 2 other empires. A closed border situation cut my empire in two as it seemed I needed to use a system as a way point that fell behind enemy control. When another neighbour dowed me I could not send my fleet from the southern half of my empire to defend the north. The numbers were academic anyway.
For your first couple games, I'd recommend disabling FE's and advanced neighbors entirely, as well as setting the AI placement to 'random' rather than 'clustered', to avoid this sort of thing. Will give you a bit of breathing room in the early game. Although you do want to expand as much as you can early, It's optimal to keep your borders contiguous whenever you can.

Game 3. Different set up. No advanced nations. 12 alien nations plus 2x FEs. No near neighbours. Low AI aggressiveness. Random placement. Lasted much longer - over a hundred years. Was having fun until the Vrool dropped by. I had a maxed out fleet with over 2.5k power. The Vrool had a fleet with some 14k fire power. Their demands were generous enough to leave me with a backwater rock populated by a single human pop and a couple of droids in the middle-of-nowhere-with-no-recourses system.
Depending on the AI's chosen ethics, they might choose to get aggressive with you if they perceive you to be weak enough to take advantage of. If it was 14k vs 2.5k, he probably saw you as an easy target. Generally, you want to focus on expansion/economy/infrastructure early on, but you also want to keep on top of your military production. Keep working towards your naval capacity. If you hit it, try and raise your capacity - certain tech will raise it, and spaceports will give you extra capacity as well. (upgrading spaceports will provide a further bonus to capacity). If your neighbor isn't a jerk, i.e. purifier/evangelist/otherwise xenophobe (their tone in the first contact screen will give you an idea) try and make friends through trade deals, gifts, etc. If they ARE aggressive, you may want to build up your fleet to try and match their naval power (Relative naval power can be seen by clicking on their flag and hovering over 'relative power')

I played another game after posting this thread.

Game 4. A custom race. Miitaristic, xenophobic one - I thought if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Same set up as game 3 to give me at least an equal start and some space around me. It lasted nine years. Another race had started just three systems away and was first to the best system lying between us. I dowed them for it (my first aggressive action in Stellaris) afterall I started with a level playing field and I've maxed out my fleet. Oh dear. My neighbours had a fleet three times the power of mine in just eight years. In 2209 I capitulated.
I would argue that playing the Xenophobe style is probably one of the harder ways to play. Even as Xenophobe however, you probably want to rush expansion/economy early because 'rushing' opponents in Stellaris is tough because of the starting strength of the Starport. Go for econ/infrastructure (lots of spaceports/mineral income) and try and gobble up as much territory as you can with expansion and frontier outposts. You can even use the outposts to 'strangle' your neighbours and keep them from expanding too much. When the advantage is yours, strike. (Be very mindfull of defensive pacts when you go to attack - the diplomatic mapmode is your friend!

This game is harsh on beginners.

Good luck, and feel free to keep posting if you need help. This game has a pretty good community !


EDIT. Forgot to say thanks for all the positive comments and tips posted above. They'll be put to good use in game 5.

 

[KingKone]

I find having a strong or very strong trait helps with your armies it gives 20% to 40% boost to your armies and I have had a couple of games recently when the enemy navy has bigger strength so I started diversionary tactics and when I finished my armies the enemy started chickening out wanting white peace.

 

[Amaror]

I am in my third attempt at a game of Stellaris and have suffered the same issues in all three games that leave me somewhat disheartened.

I see empires forging alliances and defensive pacts, but never with me - its a cold unfriendly universe out there. It seems to me that proposing any sort of friendly diplomatic overture is a complete waste of a mouse click.

Instead what I get is aggressive warmongering empires and FEs for nextdoor neighbours and the inevitable doomstack that ends my game. Each doomstack I see is many times the firepower of my maximum possible fleet build - every time. And hours of peaceful empire building is gone in no time at all as the doomstack hops from system to system destroying everything. There is no defence to offer. There are no allies to offer you hope.

I am not the sort of player who thrives on adversity. I am not the sort of player who is happy to continue playing a defeated empire with only a single a fragment of rock remaining for the last remnant of my pops to cling to.

Why does this game feel so unfriendly and unforgiving for fledgling players? In CK2, EUIV & Victoria - defeat in a war does not mean all is lost - you can cede ground and still pick up the pieces - but in Stellaris everything is destroyed in a single war and you're left with pretty much nothing.

Stellaris is a cruel galaxy. I am left lonely and dispirited. I am bereft of all hope. Someone please, just shove me out of the air lock.....

I personally feel the best way to quickly learn paradox games is to watch Let's Plays of someone playing them who knows what they are doing. It doesn't have to be a perfect player, but just someone better than you.
Though I am curious how you ended up with 2.5k fleet power after 100 years of play.
- Did you remember to upgrade your ships using the ship designer and by clicking "upgrade fleet" on your main fleet?
- Did you remember to increase your naval capacity using starports?
- Did you expand at all? Colonising is relatively cheap and a very fast way to expand.
- Did you remember to research and build non-corvette ships?