New World Order 2

[Faulty]

Policy of Communist party of Yugoslavia until 1948 was Marxist-Leninist, same as policy of All-Union Communist Party(bolsheviks) until 1956 namely Stalinist. Yugoslavia after revolution and victory in People's Liberation War has been one of the most "ortodoxs" communist countrys in the world. Yugoslavia copied Stalinist policy of Five year plans and collectivization... Soviet military and industrial advissors and missions were sent all over Yugoslavia to help in socialist reconstruction of country...

The Paradox developers who came up with the Hearts of Iron policy sliders didn't base them on analysis of political economy, they are based on fuzzy liberal conceptions of freedom vs totalitarianism. According to their worldview, Tito was not "Stalinist" because he didn't forbid emigration and open death camps for dissenters. That's all there is to it. Notice it takes less slider moves to shift from Fascism to Leninism than from Fascism to market liberalism.

 

[Gwax23]

Notice it takes less slider moves to shift from Fascism to Leninism than from Fascism to market liberalism.

Because Fascism is closer to Leninism than market liberalism...

 

[Faulty]

Because Fascism is closer to Leninism than market liberalism...

Market liberals have always been willing to form tactical alliances with fascists when socialism is close. Look at Mussolini's National Bloc in 1921. From the horse's mouth:

It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization. The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history. But though its policy has brought salvation for the moment, it is not of the kind which could promise continued success. Fascism was an emergency makeshift. To view it as something more would be a fatal error

 

[ChrisFox]

Because Fascism is closer to Leninism than market liberalism...

No.

 

[Timur Khan]

Hi, guys. Just a quick question from my side: Can I just copy version 2.2.2 over the previews version which I already have or I need a clean install.

Thanks.

 

[Miihkali]

I'm currently playing a test game as USSR beginning from 1936 scenario. I find Stalin minister stats a bit confusing. Head of State Stalin is a Ruthless Powermonger, while Head of Government Stalin is a Paranoid Megalomaniac. Both give -10% to unit organization. I find this very annoying, because this makes Soviet organization almost as low as German organization, but on the other hand Soviet GDE is only half of German GDE. As a result it is nearly impossible to win any battles as the Soviet Union. This is even more annoying as Stalin becomes HoG at the dawn of the Great Patriotic War which means that Soviet combat abilities actually become worse when the German-Soviet War begins, while I'd say it should improve (reflecting the lessons of winter war and the slow recovery from the initial defeats).

I really think this should be fixed:
- HoS Stalin should be Paranoid Megalomaniac.
- HoG Stalin should be Backroom Backstabber or Flamboyant Tough Guy, or perhaps an unique personality that would give bonus to infantry and militia production but also malus to consumer goods.

EDIT: In addition, investment decisions are bugged. No matter what kind of investment you decide to make, it costs the same (2000 money).

 

[Aquamenti]

According to their worldview, Tito was not "Stalinist" because he didn't forbid emigration and open death camps for dissenters.

Until 1948, all of that did happen. Tito only reformed Yugoslavia to what would later be known as 'Titoism' after he split from Cominform in 1948. The borders were open for migration no earlier than the 60s.

 

[Gwax23]

Market liberals have always been willing to form tactical alliances with fascists when socialism is close. Look at Mussolini's National Bloc in 1921. From the horse's mouth:

Political Alliances and coalitions of supposed Market Liberals in Mussolini's Italy do not illustrate ideology rather short term political strategy.

No.

Yes. Both believe in State control of the economy. One for the benefit of the state one for the benefit of the workers. They both disregard personal freedom and choice.

 

[Faulty]

Political Alliances and coalitions of supposed Market Liberals in Mussolini's Italy do not illustrate ideology rather short term political strategy.

I disagree, I think the history of support between the moderate right and the radical right shows that they are closer to one another ideologically.

Yes. Both believe in State control of the economy. One for the benefit of the state one for the benefit of the workers. They both disregard personal freedom and choice.

Yes and Lenin and Mussolini both breathed air. Caught red handed!

The important difference between socialist and fascist politics are who owns and profits from the economy, and fascists and market liberals agree that private businessmen should own and profit, which socialists disagree with. This is why they are so far apart and why market liberals will support fascists in times of crisis (when private ownership is threatened).

 

[Gwax23]

Government directed if not outright owned corporations that have a monopoly power over certain industries and are adherent to the state is not close to the Market Liberal belief of a free market.... free from government involvement. "Private" businessmen being Fascist party members and supporters, most likely hand picked? You got to be kidding me.

The problem is you use a simplistic left right spectrum to evaluate ideologies instead of a A multi-axis system such as this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Political_Spectrum2.png

Im not going to derail this thread but from a game play perspective:

-Both the Fascists and assorted communists ideologies would be Central Planning on the sliders. Sure the fascists might not be fully centrally planning but compared to market liberals on the complete opposite spectrum they are far closer to the communists in game play (and real life terms)

-They would be closed society on the slider.

Left vs Right usually in the Middle for Market Liberal while for the Fascist be far right and communists far left.

 

[Faulty]

Government directed if not outright owned corporations that have a monopoly power over certain industries and are adherent to the state is not close to the Market Liberal belief of a free market.... free from government involvement. "Private" businessmen being Fascist party members and supporters, most likely hand picked? You got to be kidding me.

Fascist states never took over industries like you seem to think they did. In fact Mussolini pursued a programme of privatisation of state industries for the first decade of his rule.

The problem is you use a simplistic left right spectrum to evaluate ideologies instead of a A multi-axis system such as this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Political_Spectrum2.png

A two dimensional "system" like that is still very simplistic compared to dialectical materialism.

 

[ChrisFox]

Yes. Both believe in State control of the economy. One for the benefit of the state one for the benefit of the workers. They both disregard personal freedom and choice.

Not all form of socialism hails statism as the way forward, for example, Workers Self Management, Industrial Democracy, Syndicalism, many other names it goes by.
And also, not all forms of socialism disregard individuality. You can't take one strain of pretend socialism and apply that definition liberally to the entire movement.

 

[NikephorosSonar]

This fun fantasizing about the nature of fascism and liberalism, the response to it, and the possibilities of Marxism, are not material to this mod. Please knock it off.

 

[wartrain]

I had forgotten how fun this mod can be. USA allying Nationalist China to defeat the PRC? That's simply very enjoyable (though I was surprised to see the Soviet Union back down from war).Basically, I have learned that to have fun in this mod means not caring about dissent.

Great mod, Bizon.

 

[Comrad Urio]

Being a dumb non-reader, when is the end date? In saw that you planned to make it longer, but was this plan already applied?

 

[Prometheus421]

These are merely suggestions but what about a scenario in which the victorious Allies implement the so-called "Morgenthau Plan" in its unadulterated entirety, thus purposely dividing Germany into weaker states (i.e. North and South Germany rather than OTL's East and West) and making the entirety of the Rhineland an international zone?

 

[Comrad Urio]

This might be useful guys: http://www.spiegel.de/international...d-a-secret-army-in-west-germany-a-969015.html I hope this is not against the forum rules

 

[Bizon]

OK, I'm back.

I can't reply to each post now but taking a couple from directly above:

Being a dumb non-reader, when is the end date? In saw that you planned to make it longer, but was this plan already applied?

It's _being_ applied With the latest v. 2.2.2, the 1963-91 support got more fleshed out, with A-N countries getting their events. In the next version I'll be working now on, USSR will be getting its late 80s/91 attention so at this point I'll be able to say that the plan is already in big part fulfilled.

These are merely suggestions but what about a scenario in which the victorious Allies implement the so-called "Morgenthau Plan" in its unadulterated entirety, thus purposely dividing Germany into weaker states (i.e. North and South Germany rather than OTL's East and West) and making the entirety of the Rhineland an international zone?

Tags, tags, tags I'd need a couple of new countries for this created so I put that on hold.

This might be useful guys: http://www.spiegel.de/international...d-a-secret-army-in-west-germany-a-969015.html I hope this is not against the forum rules

The link doesn't work for me now (and there's even no Google cached ver) but any far-right leaning of postwar Germany is surely within rules bounds. I have a short event chain earmarked that begins with postwar trials (which may get stricter or more lenient than historically) and possible usage of Nazi sympathies by the West in case of WW3 to squeeze out full German support for the war. I never got an idea how to do it well to let it remain in the area of plausibility. Maybe when I get hold of this article I'll finally write it for 2.2.3.

 

[Pasha]

The link doesn't work for me now (and there's even no Google cached ver) but any far-right leaning of postwar Germany is surely within rules bounds. I have a short event chain earmarked that begins with postwar trials (which may get stricter or more lenient than historically) and possible usage of Nazi sympathies by the West in case of WW3 to squeeze out full German support for the war. I never got an idea how to do it well to let it remain in the area of plausibility. Maybe when I get hold of this article I'll finally write it for 2.2.3.

Here's a working link to what Comrade Urio was trying to send. Spiegel's site can be slow at times. It's a fascinating read even if you don't incorporate it into NWO...

http://www.spiegel.de/international...d-a-secret-army-in-west-germany-a-969015.html

 

[unmerged(55197)]

Also don't forget a couple of more nations got their independence, like Botswana, Equatorial Guinea, Lesotho and Swaziland. Should reserve some tags for them.