New to AoD and CORE

[Kermit_Mupp]

So, I bought both DH and AoD about a year ago, but sporting an AMD computer I couldn't get AOD to work then so I had to settle for playing DH.

But now I'd like to try AoD with CORE and I've managed to get it installed but I have a problem finding information online.
This forum list 300 threads but I can't browse more then the first page - after that the remaining 14 pages dosen't show any posts at all - what's up with that?

I've tried searching for a Soviet strategy as I'd like to try the Soviet Union first, but can't find much relevant information online.

I've pieced together that one's not supposed to spam IC as the Soviet in this mod as the five-year plans takes care of that.
But infrastructure seems like a good idea, so you spam that instead?

Or do you have to build up your units strength in AoD/CORE? In DH your units are replentished automatically with conscripts as soon as the war starts, but I tried DOW on Japan and nothing happened.

But maybe that event only fires against the Germans?

So - anyone who has an idea about how you play the Soviets in this game and with this mod?

 

[Quiller]

U have to replenish the units yourself..

Infra is certainly a good strategy (for almost all countries ) - put them in resource rich provinces AND on provinces that are key strategic important to defend.

 

[Kermit_Mupp]

Thanks for the reply!

So I guess it might be a good idea to disband part of the obsolete Soviet army for manpower and instead build newer models then - instead of replenishing the units and then having to upgrade them as well?

When you upgrade units in AoD - can they actually skip steps so they go from severely outdated directly to modern, skipping past the older version in between?

(Sorry for the sketchy description - don't have a specific example)

Because in DH I read people saying this was possible - but it wasn't, actually.
Units in DH upgrades to the next newer version and you have to go through all the versions until you get to the newest one if you want to upgrade fully.

 

[mccarty.geoff]

Model upgrades are still linear. Attribute modifiers are immediate. The real benefit in disbanding 10% or more the outdated Red Army is that you can invest your upgrade IC into better mechanization.
The forum messages date cutoff problem is due to older messages and accounts having been pruned from the index last time the server was overhauled. The forum posts are still there but, you have to use the search function.

 

[Kermit_Mupp]

The forum messages date cutoff problem is due to older messages and accounts having been pruned from the index last time the server was overhauled. The forum posts are still there but, you have to use the search function.

OK, that makes sense. Yes, I found I could find them in searches - but that's of course still less then optimal. But it is what it is. Thanks for the explanation anyway - good to know.

Model upgrades are still linear. Attribute modifiers are immediate. The real benefit in disbanding 10% or more the outdated Red Army is that you can invest your upgrade IC into better mechanization.

OK. When I realized upgrades didn't actually skip versions in DH I guessed that the people talking about this where confusing DH with AoD, but if upgrades work the same way in AoD as well I'm confused myself. Where does these claims about upgrade being able to skip past older versions come from? Is there some other mod where this is the case or is it just a rumor repeated so many time people believe it's true? I'm not expecting any reply on this, more voicing my confusion.

I suspect you could need the manpower as well, as you seem kind of short on that as the Soviets in AoD compared to what I remember from DH. Before the war and general mobilization that is.
In DH there are a lot of different versions between the obsolete old ones and the 1939-1941 versions you want to have when the Germans come knocking, and in some cases it's simply not economically worth it to upgrade past all those versions compared to building brand new units.
Is there a fact sheet somewhere for the different units in AoD Core so you can look this up? Anyone know where I could find that if so?

 

[Quiller]

You need your armies, but disbanding some might be a good strategy... BUT do it carefully.
About upgrades : when your tech is two levels higher the first upgrade is very quick (don't know the exact numbers)

 

[Kermit_Mupp]

You need your armies, but disbanding some might be a good strategy... BUT do it carefully.
About upgrades : when your tech is two levels higher the first upgrade is very quick (don't know the exact numbers)

Yes, of course you don't disband them all.

Aha, so there is yet another reason for waiting as long as possible to upgrade your old units then - good to know. Thank you for the information.

EDIT:
So, I've been looking some more and it doesn't seem like it's possible to upgrade a division to a different class of unit in AoD compared to in DH, where that is possible?
So a RES(erve infantry) can for instance never become a regular INF(antry) for example?
Is that correct, or is that perhaps something that changes over time with research or through events?
And if so I suspect the same is true for every type of units in the game?

 

[mccarty.geoff]

Correct, AoD doesn't have the drop down menu upgrade list. In CORE there are events that will 'upgrade' divisions which were historically re-equipped though.

 

[Kermit_Mupp]

OK, so now I've been playing through the build-up to war 1936-41 two times and have new questions:

1. Leaders seems to be able to be promoted without ever losing skill, like they do in AoD. So I guess there is little reason not to upgrade good leaders to Field Marshals ASAP basically? Or do they accrue experience more slowly the higher grade they hold?

2. It dosen't seem that leaders with the "Logistics" trait lower the consumption of supply of units under their command, as they do in DH. So the question then is what does the "Logistics" trait actually do in AoD with CORE? Don't seem to increase speed either (but I could be wrong)? Do they increase re-organization speed after combat or what does the trait do?
And more generally - is there any fact sheet describing all the traits in AoD with CORE and what they actually do?

3. Researching the 1939 infantry techs early is no problem, but the Soviets are severely limited in manpower before later events so I've ended up deleting all the Reserve infantry to rebuild them as far superior 1939 infantry and motorized infantry. Reserve infantry seems completely pointless for the Soviets as far as I see it. Or am I missing something here?
The jury is still out if it's worth keeping the cavalry and upgrading it or if I should delete them as well and use the manpower for infantry or motorized infantry.
Cavalry strangely doesn't seem to be faster then regular infantry and their stats are mostly lower so I see little point in them?

4. Upgrading units is faster the more obsolete models they are, so waiting as long as possible is preferable. Researching 1942's artillery tech before Barbarossa is no problem and upgrading from starting 1930 model to the next level can then be done in one single day cheaply if you do it in Moscow with 200 level infrastructure and perfect supply (upgrading seems to differ depending on infrastructure and/or supply level?). So that's a tip to anyone else new to the game - not really a question there.

5. Not Purging the army seems the far superior option to me. You loose some tech team but you get to keep others and crucially you save a lot of manpower early that you really need for building superior 1939 units.
But whether you purge or not you still get these "Internal opposition" messages that gives you a partisan value of 3% in a random province and 1,00 decent you have to deal with. But the strange thing is that you don't seem to be able to eradicate that partisan value completely - all you can do is place units on the province and suppress the value as long as you stay there.
But no matter if you place huge amounts of units in one province or leave the province empty, the partisan value seems to veeery slowly decrease over time - at exactly the same rate.
I noticed this as you sometimes get partisans in Soviet provinces with absolutely 0 in infrastructure - and placing units there would see them starve to death from attrition faster then they could ever hunt down any partisans, so I just left them alone and observed what happened and as far as I could see they decrease in partisan value at exactly the same, extremely slow rate as provinces that are full with units set to anti-partisan duty.
So that function seems to be broken? Or am I missing something?

6. Are "Defensive armaments" the same thing as "Escort Fighters" for bombers? Because it seems they can be upgraded from one to the other. The tech tree is however very confusing on this point so it's had to track how the upgrade levels go and it seems you can actually jump steps by not researching certain techs? So you can upgrade past a model by simply not having that tech I mean. I think I saw that happen.

7. The Naval and Naval doctrine part of the Tech tree is even more confusing - it seems you might just ignore certain models of ships as the tech is not a prerequisite for later models and it doesn't give you any benefits if you instead research the later models. But other tech you seem to have to research, because those techs give you benefits for entire classes of ships and if you research them in the wrong order they seem to become locked and unobtainable later?
I'm not sure about this as the Soviets have little use for the navy early on, but if anyone can shed some light on this or point me in a fruitful direction I would much appreciate it as I might want to play a naval power in the future, but right now I have absolutely no clue about how to do that properly, with the tech tree looking like it does.

8. Rocket test sites - they increase your research in the field just like in DH I gather, but can anyone tell me by how much? How many is reasonable to build as the Soviets and does it matter if you stack them in the same province and that provinces infrastructure or any other value?
In DH I seem to remember that the optimal number was to build 3 in one province - after that the effect became less and less evident for the same investment so not really worth the considerable cost.

9. Synth fuel/synth rubber plants - you have to build these to convert Energy into Oil and Rare Materials at all I gather? Is there any reason too as the Soviets? I've been hoarding Oil and Rare's on the open market pre-war and that seem to provide all the buffer you need. Unless you loose most of your country, but at that point your probably screwed anyway.

10. On resources I've learned that infrastructure increases your IC - but does it ever increase resource production?
Also, the increase in IC - is that tied to in what province you build the infrastructure (as in more effect if in a province with more IC?) or is any province in your nation all the same to the game? So building better infrastructure deep into God forsaken corners of Mother Russia would still give you a boost? Because I could see that being the case in real life too. Not every stretch along the Transiberian railroad is an industrial powerhouse - most of it is just miles and miles of nothing but frozen forests. But if you still have to build the railroad through it to get resources where they can be found and deliver them to where they are needed.
So how does the game mechanics function on this point - anyone know?


OK, I have more questions but let's stop there for now before I scare everyone away...

If anyone has an answer to any of these question or could point me in the direction of an answer I'd much appreciate it!

 

[mccarty.geoff]

1. Slower experience gain at higher rank correct.
2. Logwiz just increases ESE. CORE should come with a manual describing major differences from AoD. While AoD's manual will describe changes from HoI2 therefore, you may have to forget about code changes within Darkest Hour as a comparison.
3. I've forgotten most particulars about CORE units, but you should also consider terrain modifiers for cavalry units movement.
5. While actively suppressing the province revolt risk you recover the loss of transport capacity those partisans cause and negate the chance of rebellion there.
6. There are some loopholes in the tech tree which are explained in the CORE manual. Defensive arms are basically extra turrets and gun ports for bombers while long range fighter squadrons become the real escorts that can protect your bomber wings only so far out.
7. Naval tech pattern was always COREs weak link in my opinion. Suffice it to say that after the war begins you will gain post treaty warship tech allowances as an event.
8. Same hardcoded value as ever I imagine: https://hoi2.paradoxwikis.com/Research#Effect_of_Rocket_Test_Sites
9. If I remember (probably an older version of CORE for AoD) the synth fuel/rubber techs were given bogus industrial supply increases while real world synthetic manufacturing are handled via event. Which means that the Soviets should get Synthetic rubber plants around 1943.
10. Yeah I think infrastructure (regardless of supply chain) also increases resource throughput up to some nominal level.

I don't have all the answers because my knowledge of CORE and even AoD particulars is limited. Just wanted to give you a response.

 

[Kermit_Mupp]

I very much appreciate your response!
Sorry for my late reply - I've been busy playing "some" more.

1. Ok, thanks for the confirmation

2. I couldn't find a manual other then a few pages mostly describing changes in the tech tree. That was included in the mod-CORE2 folder in the mod and states the mod’s current version as 0.6.0, which was obviously a while ago. I also noted several differences between what's stated in it and what I see in the game, so I'm hesitant to rely on it. But wither way it says nothing about leader traits as far as I can see.

3. You're right, there might be differences but they don't seem to be that great when you compare movement on the map. Either way I ended up deciding to keep them around for their higher suppression value against partisans.

5. Yes you are easily able to suppress the partisan value while you stay there, but you would think that you eventually could reduce it completely - but so far that seems impossible. Other discontent fades away, but the provinces you've once gotten an "Internal Opposition" message on seems destined to remain problems at least for years to come - no matter how you deal with them. So the only temporary fix is to place troops on them - when possible - to suppresses the direct risk of partisans rising.
I say when possible, because as I noted earlier there are provinces in the Soviet Union with a perfect 0 in infrastructure and placing troops there will simply kill them by attrition, so that's not a workable solution.

6. Well they're not really explained in any great detail - which may be the result of the manual being outdated. But wither way you have to do a lot of meticulous reading in tiny boxes and some trial and error to find your way.
Well I understood what Defensive armament mean - the question is just if those brigades eventually turn into Fighter escorts if you upgrade them or if they're a completely different class. It seems to me now that they are in fact the same thing that just shift name somewhere through the tech tree.

7. I think that's changed by now as well, but I'm not sure? You seem to be able to research the Naval techs just fine earlier too.
But you might be talking about Navel Doctrine tech who are more restricted? I guessed that was just an effect of me playing the Soviets and not very advanced in naval matters, but maybe it's the same in more navel nations? I'll keep that in mind if I ever try them.

9. Now it seems you have to build plants for converting resources and you research the tech for building the plants. There are also at least one event I guess is for balance the first day that gives the Soviets a +12 special resources for some synthetic rubber factory. It's just an OK pop-up, so you don't even have a choice. Maybe there are more later, but so far it seems you have to build your ability to convert resources yourself.

10. Hope it does - you can never get to much resources.


But - now I have an even more pressing question:

As I stated before I've played through the run-up to the war twice as the Soviets. 1936-1941 with historical choices for the purge to see what happens.
Now I've come to the conclusion that choice sucks and it's much better to not go through the purges. Or more precisely accept the first event that put Stalin in control, but then stop at the second event and take the short term hit in discontent.
So now I've tried two more run-throughs 1936-41 like this and what I can control works better this way - but there is one GIANT difference I can't control and that's espionage.

In the first two run-throughs my spies where totally crushing it. I first sent all internally, maxing out at about 25-28 spies in the Soviet Union. They rather quickly reduce the 90+ foreign spies you start with to around 30 and the numbers then drop more slowly.
Then I ignore the home front and send them all to Germany, maxing out at about the same number and averaging the odds of stealing a blue print at somewhere between 41-49%.
At that rate I stole probably every blueprint the Germans ever made, often stealing them as soon as the Germans themselves had researched the tech.
Which of course made it possible for me to keep almost even step with them in areas where my own tech teams are crap.

Then when Barbarossa started I began killing of their cabinet members instead, killing Göring, Keitel and von Brauchitsch in 3 out of 4 tries within a few weeks.
At that point it seemed the German AI wasn't even trying to defend from espionage - so I switch seats and notice the AI seems to have intelligence funding set to 0%, so that would explain it I guess.

But - now when I've tried playing the same way two times when I didn't do the purges my own spies suck!
Not only can't they root out foreign spies at the same rate as before - they can hardly get into Germany without getting caught, and when they do they almost always fail to steal any blueprints.

I've always funded my intelligence at 100%, so there is no difference there. Also, even if there is a different Soviet cabinet leader in charge his personal traits aren't actually different in this regard from the one's on the one you get if you go through the purges so that can't explain this on the face of it.
Nor do I conduct offensive spy operations when I suffer discontent at home - I always reduce it to 0 before I switch the spies from sleeping to actively doing some mission.

I've also tried switching seats again and the German AI ALWAYS has his intelligence funding set to 0%. So either the AI doesn't use that slider and that tells you nothing, or it completely ignores intelligence operations?

Anyway, as it stands now I have no explanation for this huge difference in effectiveness of the Soviets spies and it just seems impossible to get them to operate properly if you DON'T purge. Meaning that you actually HAVE TO purge - not because of any rational reason, but because of some unexplained feature (or possible bug) that forks the Soviet intelligence services if you don't.
Because if you don't steal a shitload of blueprints from the Germans I don't see how you could even be able to defend against them?

So to me, this intelligence failure seems game changing.
Can anyone explain what this is all about? Is it meant to work like this or is there some bug somewhere unintentionally forking up the Soviet spies if you don't purge?

 

[Commander666]

I greatly enjoyed reading this thread, but am sad that nobody has replied to answer your important question. Sadly, I have never played CORE so can't help. But I am discouraged that nobody in CORE seems to be either. Exception mccarty.geoff whose answers I very much appreciated.

 

[Irsh Faq]

I'm afraid I don't know the answer to your espionage question. I usually leave espionage alone except for clearing my own country out of spies.

I do have some other advice. Just finished up a custom game fighting against a Germany with enough buffs that it took me till 1949 to beat it, so I spent a good long time with the USSR.

==GENERAL==

-Purging means hard mode. Even if it does make espionage harder, it's worth it not to purge, as it means a whole lot more manpower, better leaders, and units with higher org and morale. Purging also moves your most-important sliders (hawk and interventionism) in a bad way. Stealing some doctrine blueprints is no good if your troops with doctrines have lower org and morale than they would without the doctrine, because of the purge, and they are lead by worse generals, and there are fewer of them overall because of dove slider and isolationism.

-I didn't purge in my latest game so I'm not 100% sure, but while Kalinin isn't a great head of state, I think that replacing him with Stalin gives a heavy org penalty to your divisions. Last thing you need on top of the already heavy org penalties from purging in the first place.

-The five-year plan does give you industry events, but it doesn't hurt to build more factories in your highest-IC provinces. There is a concentration bonus for factories, so each new factory in your highest-IC provinces also improves all the ones that are already there. The same is true of infrastructure - improving it is most cost-effective in the provinces that have high IC.

-Spend the early years researching industrial techs (light/heavy industry, agriculture, and electronics techs are the most important to get fast). With your other tech teams, get started on land doctrines. Your starting teams research these slowly because of low skill, so it takes a while and you won't catch up if you fall behind. Conversely, it may be helpful to you to completely write off techs that aren't relevant to you, like navy construction and naval doctrine.

-Spend the early years building factories, infra, and some units like HQ that you need five or six of but don't need lots of, which are convenient to build when you need something to do with your IC and don't have the manpower to build big armies yet.

-Consider disbanding some types of unit that aren't that efficient. I often disband the entire army and rebuild from the ground up starting in 1938/1939 (although not disband all of it right away, because keeping some units around helps suppress dissent and you get a lot of dissent as USSR), but that might be a bit too radical for an early playthrough. Still, it might be worth ditching units like cavalry and putting that manpower to better use.

-Slider priorities are, highest to lowest, hawk, interventionism, professional army. Every other slider can stay where it starts.

-You don't have great options for ministers to start with. My favorite chief of staff is the one that grants 25% manpower (Shaposhnikov - he won't be available for a few years though) and chief of army the guns-and-butter guy that helps with supplies. However, there are a few other options you can play with. There is a several month delay between picking a minister and actually getting his effects, and changing causes dissent, so frequently changing ministers doesn't make much sense.

==MILITARY BUILDUP==

-Don't get fancy with building lots of different types of units and brigades. As USSR your research is a step behind but you have huge manpower and production, and the best strategy to mitigate this weakness while taking advantage of these strengths is to concentrate on researching only a few types of unit and brigade and then spamming huge amounts of those units. Your tech teams are adequate to keep up to date and even ahead if you keep them focused on few unit types. Conversely, trying to keep up to date with too many different types of unit will lead to falling behind in all of them.

-Therefore, I recommend at the start picking two types of land division that you'll build (one cheap division for bulk fighting - either infantry or reserve - and one mobile division for maneuvering, either armor, motorized, or the late-arriving mechanized). Pick one type of brigade that you'll add to all your divisions (rocket artillery is likely the best choice that the USSR has available from the start; assault guns are a little stronger but require a number of prerequisites and are hard to get in large numbers by Barbarossa). Infantry and reserve share techs, so you can build both of them if you want to experiment with whether you prefer the cheaper, faster, weaker Reserve or the stronger, tougher, more expensive and slower-building Infantry. I recommend starting with Motorized in your first playthrough - they are fairly forgiving, as they are faster to build, cheaper, and require less research than the other fast divisions.

-There are several events in CORE that heavily affect your manpower pool and industrial capabilities. USSR starts with Rearmament Initiative, and at various points can trigger Partial Mobilization, Mobilization, Total Mobilization, and Desperate Measures. All of these events grant a large one-time infusion of manpower and greatly raise your permanent rate of manpower gain. All but the last also greatly increase your industrial efficiency. The final event, Desperate Measures hurts your industry a little in order to give you a last shot of manpower. Exactly when these events trigger can be affected by your own sliders (maxing your hawkish and intervention sliders can lead to early mobilization events before outright war) and by the actions of other great powers (unusual belligerence by other countries can trigger you to mobilize). However, assuming no early mobilizations due to sliders or world events, the USSR will get Partial Mobilization when the European war breaks out and will get full mobilization when Germany attacks. Triggers for Total Mobilization and Desperate Measures are based on losing territory. Losing all your provinces west of the big rivers is enough to trigger total mobilization (which means it may be worthwhile not to defend right on the border, or at least to plan on an orderly fighting retreat from the border to the far side of your big rivers).

-It is neat and efficient to build units together with their brigades from the start rather than build the brigades separately, and all your units should be given brigades. The USSR can and should build large batches of units at once in very long serial runs. 9 parallel/99 serial is a good set of builds (9 is the amount of units a general can command in one formation, so all 9 units finish together and you can deploy them into one formation and assign a commander all at once). It's probably best to start building units when you get Partial Mobilization - say 2 or 3 sets of 9 Infantry or Reserve going at once, so 18/27 total. Then you could add 9x99 Motorized when you get full mobilization. Or you could add in the mot earlier if you can afford it. Exact decisions here depend on what kind of units you want by Barbarossa and what units you are comfortable waiting a little longer for.

-Make sure to have researched the 1939 model of the units you are going to build so that the tech is ready by the time you are ready to start producing. You don't want to be stuck fighting with 1935 units, and the USSR faces high upgrade costs, so really you want to build 1939 units all through.

==WAR==

You'll probably figure this part out for yourself. It's the most fun part to learn anyway.