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Wallain

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I was asking why Europeans were special, and all I got was that it was because they were christiandom and that the concept of why that makes them better is beyond the scope of the thread. Fawr gave a much more satisfying explanation.
No, you did not. You went out on a strawman and asked why Muslim nations missed out on the scientific and economic explosion Europe had during this period. To that the correct answer has to do with cultural spheres that were at the time defined by religion. If you instead had inquired more specifically on why it was Europe that had a scientific and economic explosion, then you might have gotten a different answer. In other words, make sure you ask the right thing or the answer you might get is 42.
 

Dafool

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No, you did not. You went out on a strawman and asked why Muslim nations missed out on the scientific and economic explosion Europe had during this period. To that the correct answer has to do with cultural spheres that were at the time defined by religion. If you instead had inquired more specifically on why it was Europe that had a scientific and economic explosion, then you might have gotten a different answer. In other words, make sure you ask the right thing or the answer you might get is 42.

Well, this was one of the first and most important questions asked:

What defines this European cultural sphere? What made it special?

The only answer, other than Fawr's, was Christianity. Now if that's your answer, then you need to explain why Christianity above all else defined Europe and why Christianity was special. So far there have only been fairly evasive answers and now the claim that this is a straw man argument.
 

alexti

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I think you are underestimating the punishing nature of the ahead of time penalty. For example if tech comes every 5 years, and the Muslim nation is at the tech edge that would mean that the Latin nation would be paying +200% for their tech due to the ahead bonus. That completely overshadows the 75% or 80% Muslim tech group.
Those modifiers are multiplicative, not cumulative, so from identical position Muslims tech group countries still pay 33% more for the same tech. Ahead of time modifier function also has some interesting properties. If Muslim group country is right on time, identical Western group country can only get 1-2 years ahead to get the same malus from ahead of time as Muslim group penalty - generally it's much less than a level difference. However, if you look at more human-like empire that is 50 years ahead of time it has 10x base tech costs. Muslim group country in the same position has 13.3 costs. Western country would have the same costs if it was ~66 years ahead of time - so now the gap widens to 16 years which is much bigger than at the on-time research level. So the tech group malus is not insignificant. At the same it's not as crippling as some make it out to be.

If we can't even agree on that then I think its relevent to talk about it here. Let me put some dot points (many places outside Western Europe had some of these, but they are more powerful in combination):
  • Using an Alphabet for writing (and its advantages for printing)
  • Literacy (particually driven by Protestants encoraged to read the bible)
  • Printing, which then feeds back to literacy in a virtuious cycle
  • Many small countries (makes it hard for anyone to stop progress) - also leads to competition
  • Access to a wide variety of useful plants and animals
  • Large % of land is near the coast (encoraging trade - coastal trade was much cheaper than land trade)
  • Which leads to advances in shipbuilding & navigation
  • Which leads to more naval trade, and then you have a virtious cycle
  • Free markets (in places and in comparison to their contemporaries) - feeds back to trade
  • Land rights, legal systems, rulers with limited power (provides surity to encorage investment)
  • Financial institutions (banks, credit) & accounting (feeds back into trade)
  • Western Family system (small family units promoting individual responsiblity)
  • Scientific revolution (although that would have a similar list of factors which caused it)
Those are good points, but looking deeper one can't avoid questioning why is that. A big underlying reason is that Europe has very high density of wealth. Fertile and resource-rich (talking about resources usable at that period of time) land, good climate, ease of travel (both naval and overland), proximity of everything all contribute to higher wealth per capita and higher wealth per capital per area and that leads to many reasons you have listed (and some others probably derive from there too). Perhaps this simply give people more free time to think about things and that leads to various advances.

When looking at EU3 map it might not be apparent, but Europe is a pretty small place. For example Europe excluding Russia is about 3 times smaller than Russia. And if you exclude even larger part of eastern Europe concentration of wealth becomes even higher.

I think that while EU3 tech system produces pretty realistic results when played by AI, it does break down for human player. For example, if we consider typical human Ryukyu that is located somewhere in the Northern Italy, has Lombard culture and is Christian it's hard to see why it should be in Chinese tech group (other than it was unlucky with the rulers). It would be more logical to attach the group to the location (and some other factors). However, instead of using groups one could develop neighbor bonus further. Right now the problem is that it's not scaled to size and it doesn't work both ways (which is wrong way of modeling since exchange of ideas is happening in both direction, though obviously more advanced country is likely to benefit less from the exchange). So if, let's say, we put some sort of logarithmic curve to represent bonus from a single neighbor we will get larger bonus if we are behind (especially if far behind) and some increasing small bonus from backwards neighbor. Then we will integrate the bonus over all neighbors. This will give some sensible scaling since larger countries will get large bonus due to number of neighbors (representing greater access to various ideas), but their tech will cost more due to difficulty of implementing such ideas. Here neighbor can be treated somewhat loosely, including remote trading partners but scaling their contributions with the distance.

This approach can also be gamed since the player could establish relative small country with multiple outposts in important trading hubs which would push his progress forward quite quickly, but it's not too dissimilar to the historic performance of some countries, such as Holland, for example.
 

Wallain

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Well, this was one of the first and most important questions asked:
The side-tracking happened before that. Essentially at this point his questions become unclear - Does he think the European cultural sphere is inherently special and is asking why? Or is he asking why the European cultural sphere is different from that of the Muslim world? Is he referring to the scientific and economic question? His exact intentions are blurred at this point because he does not bother to properly state his questions, thus it cause confusion and the answer he gets is 42.
 

TheDarkMaster

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The side-tracking happened before that. Essentially at this point his questions become unclear - Does he think the European cultural sphere is inherently special and is asking why? Or is he asking why the European cultural sphere is different from that of the Muslim world? Is he referring to the scientific and economic question? His exact intentions are blurred at this point because he does not bother to properly state his questions, thus it cause confusion and the answer he gets is 42.
This is pointless, drop the discussion. I wanted to know why Joe thought that Europe got ahead while the Muslims did not. He never provided a satisfactory answer.
 

Eh up me duck

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You did. See this:
I was asked to explain why the Ottomans were not included with Europe.

I could ask you why the sky is blue, and claim that you think nitrogen is the main component of seawater.

You've ignored my previous post entirely. You're clearly butthurt about being unable to play as a Muslim nation. I suggest you cheat rather than troll the forum in this way.

This is pointless, drop the discussion. I wanted to know why Joe thought that Europe got ahead while the Muslims did not. He never provided a satisfactory answer.
And as I said, go read a book. I'm not going to do a thousand lifetimes of research for petty pointscoring on a forum.

You asked me to define the European cutltural sphere, and I did.

Now justify why:

a)tech is worthy of this huge jump in complication (this will obviously be denied by both you and Dafool) and

b)Why you can't make an alternate tech system that doesn't nerf Europe
 

Dafool

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I was asked to explain why the Ottomans were not included with Europe.

I could ask you why the sky is blue, and claim that you think nitrogen is the main component of seawater.

You've ignored my previous post entirely. You're clearly butthurt about being unable to play as a Muslim nation. I suggest you cheat rather than troll the forum in this way.

Incorrect. Here's how things started:

TDM: I don't think it is historically impossible that the Muslims wouldn't have been able to continue to keep pace with Europeans, or even surpassing them in terms of technological development. Does this mean that they should be penalized by virtue of the game's mechanics just because that isn't how things turned out?

Joey: Yes, I think nations that are Muslim should find it inherantly more difficult than Christian nations to advance in tech a few hundred years into the game, without Westernising. I don't see how that's unreasonable, or unrealistic.

TDM: Can you please explain why?

Joey: Because Muslim nations lost out on the scientific and economic explosion of Europe during this period.

What followed was you using circular logic and confused answers. You claimed that religion was the primary reason for success, but failed to state why. When provided with a reasonable counter example, your response was essentially "That doesn't count". Little Joey, if you can't actually back up your arguments or respond to reasonable objections, then I think you need to stop calling people "butthurt" and rethink your arguments.

And as I said, go read a book. I'm not going to do a thousand lifetimes of research for petty pointscoring on a forum.

You asked me to define the European cutltural sphere, and I did.

Now justify why:

a)tech is worthy of this huge jump in complication (this will obviously be denied by both you and Dafool) and

b)Why you can't make an alternate tech system that doesn't nerf Europe

I've read plenty of books in my time Joey. I'm not sure we can say the same about you. How about this: Can you reasonably explain why Muslims experienced a Golden Age of trading, colonization, learning, and arts only a few centuries before the game starts? Can you reasonably explain why Christians, who you hold to have an inherent superiority in such endeavors, failed to compete with the Muslims at that point? And let's try to ignore circular reasoning or insults this time, if you can manage.
 

Fawr

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Those modifiers are multiplicative, not cumulative, so from identical position Muslims tech group countries still pay 33% more for the same tech. Ahead of time modifier function also has some interesting properties. If Muslim group country is right on time, identical Western group country can only get 1-2 years ahead to get the same malus from ahead of time as Muslim group penalty - generally it's much less than a level difference. However, if you look at more human-like empire that is 50 years ahead of time it has 10x base tech costs. Muslim group country in the same position has 13.3 costs. Western country would have the same costs if it was ~66 years ahead of time - so now the gap widens to 16 years which is much bigger than at the on-time research level. So the tech group malus is not insignificant. At the same it's not as crippling as some make it out to be.
50 years ahead of time seems excessive (as does 20 or 30 years in all 5 techs). What year is that, what settings/income do you have? In my current game I'm getting enough income to bump my stability up in a month, but I still can on get 30 years ahead in one tech and baseline on the other 4. To get 50 years ahead in everything I'd need to multiply my income by almost 10!



Those are good points, but looking deeper one can't avoid questioning why is that. A big underlying reason is that Europe has very high density of wealth. Fertile and resource-rich (talking about resources usable at that period of time) land, good climate, ease of travel (both naval and overland), proximity of everything all contribute to higher wealth per capita and higher wealth per capital per area and that leads to many reasons you have listed (and some others probably derive from there too). Perhaps this simply give people more free time to think about things and that leads to various advances.

When looking at EU3 map it might not be apparent, but Europe is a pretty small place. For example Europe excluding Russia is about 3 times smaller than Russia. And if you exclude even larger part of eastern Europe concentration of wealth becomes even higher.
To me wealth (which encorages free time/specialisation) is more of an effect than a cause. However there is definatly a cycle where technological advancement leads to more specialisation and more free time which then leads to more wealth.


I think that while EU3 tech system produces pretty realistic results when played by AI, it does break down for human player. For example, if we consider typical human Ryukyu that is located somewhere in the Northern Italy, has Lombard culture and is Christian it's hard to see why it should be in Chinese tech group (other than it was unlucky with the rulers). It would be more logical to attach the group to the location (and some other factors). However, instead of using groups one could develop neighbor bonus further. Right now the problem is that it's not scaled to size and it doesn't work both ways (which is wrong way of modeling since exchange of ideas is happening in both direction, though obviously more advanced country is likely to benefit less from the exchange). So if, let's say, we put some sort of logarithmic curve to represent bonus from a single neighbor we will get larger bonus if we are behind (especially if far behind) and some increasing small bonus from backwards neighbor. Then we will integrate the bonus over all neighbors. This will give some sensible scaling since larger countries will get large bonus due to number of neighbors (representing greater access to various ideas), but their tech will cost more due to difficulty of implementing such ideas. Here neighbor can be treated somewhat loosely, including remote trading partners but scaling their contributions with the distance.

This approach can also be gamed since the player could establish relative small country with multiple outposts in important trading hubs which would push his progress forward quite quickly, but it's not too dissimilar to the historic performance of some countries, such as Holland, for example.
The EU3 system does have some weird parts. Costs which don't scale with areas. Small countries benefiting more from advisors/monarchs than large countries. But I think that the tech groups which model the predefined parts of a country which rarely varied during the time period are generally one of the succesful bits. Hopefully EU4 will get rid of the bad and keep the good.

For example, I would group growing literacy rates and better education into a mix of Free Subjects (individualism and personal betterment) and Innovative (willingness to embrace and implement new ideas). There might be more to it than just those broad categories, but we have to work with the confines of what's available to us. Getting bogged down in levels of detail that the game will never represent is only going to cause us to miss the point.

...

Basically, what I'm getting at is that EU3 (not wrongly) presumes, much like you have, that there were factors which pushed Europe ahead. However, EU3's technology system is flawed in a way because those factors are represented both inherently in the predefined research efficiency of each group and dynamically in options and mechanics that we can alter like sliders or ideas. Given that EU3 is game where we can control most of our nation's characteristics, it seems more appropriate to embrace the latter method of modeling technology.

I think this is what separates us. I think that the groundwork and differences between areas is much larger than the ten/twenty/thrity percent that the sliders give us, and that the other things which are harder to change are based on tech groups. While you could replace locked in tech groups with a tech group slider I think that would probibly lead to a situation where it was too easy upgrade tech groups.

I think that predefined research efficiency isn't that bad (for example production technology growth in Europe was a very similar annual % from 1500 until 1800 which is most of the game). I'd agree with you (and I think I've said before) that the only way to change tech groups (westernisation) is a flawed mechanic. My view is that current system is too simple, to easy and doesn't correctly model the issues involved and the consequences of making such changes.
 

Dafool

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I think this is what separates us. I think that the groundwork and differences between areas is much larger than the ten/twenty/thrity percent that the sliders give us, and that the other things which are harder to change are based on tech groups. While you could replace locked in tech groups with a tech group slider I think that would probibly lead to a situation where it was too easy upgrade tech groups.

I don't think we're all that separated here. As I said earlier, this isn't so much about making RotW nations more capable than it is about making Europeans successful by their own merit rather than by a predefined and totally linear system. The goal is to reward nations that pursue "progressive" policies and actions. This should primarily focus on Europe, but unlike vanilla, it need not be intrinsically defined by Europe.
 

alexti

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50 years ahead of time seems excessive (as does 20 or 30 years in all 5 techs). What year is that, what settings/income do you have? In my current game I'm getting enough income to bump my stability up in a month, but I still can on get 30 years ahead in one tech and baseline on the other 4. To get 50 years ahead in everything I'd need to multiply my income by almost 10!
I think I can do it with pretty much any Western, Eastern, Ottoman or Muslim country. Sooner or later, depending on the country. To complete all research you need to be around 60 years ahead by the end, so 50 years is not too hard to achieve. The main factors is to minimize tech modifier (since it's cumulative every few percents make a big difference - after sliders are optimized 5% drop decreases your tech cost by something like 30%) and establish trade everywhere. Typically I would expect to get ahead 50 years or more sometime soon after 1650. If playing non-western group and not westernizing then a bit later, perhaps around 1700-1750. I play standard settings either on normal or very hard. Fast teching is actually easier on very hard because AI has more money, builds more buildings and this drives the value of the trade up.

To me wealth (which encorages free time/specialisation) is more of an effect than a cause. However there is definatly a cycle where technological advancement leads to more specialisation and more free time which then leads to more wealth.
Yeah, it's a system with a positive feedback. However you need some underlying wealth to start the cycle. People who lived in inhospitable places has never advanced very much technologically.

The EU3 system does have some weird parts. Costs which don't scale with areas. Small countries benefiting more from advisors/monarchs than large countries. But I think that the tech groups which model the predefined parts of a country which rarely varied during the time period are generally one of the succesful bits. Hopefully EU4 will get rid of the bad and keep the good.
I think that some of those strange things (including tech groups) work well for a gameplay, but they are not necessary accurately model the situation. Though the value of accurate modeling in the game is questionable. Making an accurate historical simulator which isn't fun to play is probably not very high on PDS priority list :)
 

Eh up me duck

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Incorrect.
I refuse to be corrected on what it was I was trying to say in the first place.
You claimed that religion was the primary reason for success
No, I defined Europe as being pretty much defined by Christianity (or more specifically, Roman Christianity). I would elaborate on it more but in this thread it is pointless, and utterly irrelevent to the discussion at hand.

I state again - you have outright ignored my on-topic post because it refuted your assertion that the tech system made it impossible for Muslim nations to keep up, in fact it's actually quite generous to them.
. Master, if you can't actually back up your arguments or respond to reasonable objections, then I think you need to stop calling people "butthurt" and rethink your arguments.
You have a huge failhammer, and all you see is nails.
I've read plenty of books in my time Master. I'm not sure we can say the same about you.
Let's just let this quote hang there in isolation and contemplate its meaning to this discussion. If all you can do is ignore anything factual whatsoever and simply state that you've read more than me, then you have lost the argument.
How about this: Can you reasonably explain why Muslims experienced a Golden Age of trading, colonization, learning, and arts only a few centuries before the game starts? Can you reasonably explain why Christians, who you hold to have an inherent superiority in such endeavors, failed to compete with the Muslims at that point? And let's try to ignore circular reasoning or insults this time, if you can manage.
If you want to make a thread in the history forum about the Muslim golden age, I will be sure to avoid it.

Last I checked this is a game forum, and a game about which you know woefully little. Your definition of EU3 technology as a "static modifier", despite variances of 65%-155%, is testament to that.
 

Dafool

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If you want to make a thread in the history forum about the Muslim golden age, I will be sure to avoid it.

Last I checked this is a game forum, and a game about which you know woefully little. Your definition of EU3 technology as a "static modifier", despite variances of 65%-155%, is testament to that.

So Little Joey, you go through all that bluster and still can't answer the question? You're willing to discuss technology and the technological capabilities of various groups, but when pressed on the topic you're just going to give up? You know it's fine for you to say that you have no idea what you're talking about. I certainly wouldn't (and ultimately couldn't) think any less of you.
 

Wallain

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Joe, Dafool, can you two please stop talking to one another? This isn't getting us anywhere...
At least they don't have swords. And muskets.

I do think a more complex tech group system would be better. Westernization seems a bit too arbitrary for my liking. However, I am not sure if it is worth the bother for the base game.
 

Eh up me duck

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So Master, you go through all that bluster and still can't answer the question? You're willing to discuss technology and the technological capabilities of various groups, but when pressed on the topic you're just going to give up? You know it's fine for you to say that you have no idea what you're talking about. I certainly wouldn't (and ultimately couldn't) think any less of you.
Considering I expressed no opinion whatsoever on the Muslim golden age, I really don't know what you're getting at. How much do you know about quantum thermodynamics?
 

Dafool

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Considering I expressed no opinion whatsoever on the Muslim golden age, I really don't know what you're getting at. How much do you know about quantum thermodynamics?

Not much, but then again I didn't come into a thread about thermodynamics and start calling people names because I couldn't understand it. Someone else on the other hand...
 

DanubianCossak

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I don't think we're all that separated here. As I said earlier, this isn't so much about making RotW nations more capable than it is about making Europeans successful by their own merit rather than by a predefined and totally linear system. The goal is to reward nations that pursue "progressive" policies and actions. This should primarily focus on Europe, but unlike vanilla, it need not be intrinsically defined by Europe.

This would work horribly bad in EU3 mostly because of sliders and stuff like that. AI in EU3 is simply not designed to make such choices. Maybe it could be done for an entirely new game, meaning countries perform according to their success in various fields, but the way i see it, its mostly unneeded ovecomplication of the things, and it looks like game designers want to keep things as simple as possible. This inevitably leads to linearity creeping behind most core mechanics.

If EU3 was a single era game - like CK2 - then there would no problem implementing what you ask for, as you can see from the actual CK2 example, where all power countries have at their disposal comes from land, and how you govern it, apart from start tech spread out which is scripted, everything else develops entirely based on context.

However, like i said already, i dont think this is something that would work out well in EU game. Yes, it would be nice to have ability to mod a system like that, and observe world develop in different ways (what if an Indian state had a different mindset in certain fields). For a vanilla EU game as a developer, i fear, what you want is consistency in performance, and consistency in way the world develops, and in this sense (in EU3 at least) western Europe is crucial, because its basically the only place where AI will choose QFTNW idea, so if you want colonial game to ever happen (Americas being colonized) you want a group of standard 5 countries to "succeed" in 95% of played games (England, Castille, Portugal, France and Holland). My guess is that this is the whole reason why in EU3 there is so much linearity, specially when it comes to techs.
 

Dafool

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This would work horribly bad in EU3 mostly because of sliders and stuff like that. AI in EU3 is simply not designed to make such choices. Maybe it could be done for an entirely new game, meaning countries perform according to their success in various fields, but the way i see it, its mostly unneeded ovecomplication of the things, and it looks like game designers want to keep things as simple as possible. This inevitably leads to linearity creeping behind most core mechanics.

If EU3 was a single era game - like CK2 - then there would no problem implementing what you ask for, as you can see from the actual CK2 example, where all power countries have at their disposal comes from land, and how you govern it, apart from start tech spread out which is scripted, everything else develops entirely based on context.

However, like i said already, i dont think this is something that would work out well in EU game. Yes, it would be nice to have ability to mod a system like that, and observe world develop in different ways (what if an Indian state had a different mindset in certain fields). For a vanilla EU game as a developer, i fear, what you want is consistency in performance, and consistency in way the world develops, and in this sense (in EU3 at least) western Europe is crucial, because its basically the only place where AI will choose QFTNW idea, so if you want colonial game to ever happen (Americas being colonized) you want a group of standard 5 countries to "succeed" in 95% of played games (England, Castille, Portugal, France and Holland). My guess is that this is the whole reason why in EU3 there is so much linearity, specially when it comes to techs.

Actually, you'd be surprised at how astoundingly simple this concept is. The basic idea is that each nation has a "westernization" process, one which becomes much easier if someone from your tech group has already jumped up a "tier". Since Europe is about the only area of the world with "progressive" nations at the start, they will automatically begin advancing up a tier. This leads to things like colonization, better infrastructure, and more trade. These in turn feed back into the system, eventually pushing Europe up another tier. Meanwhile the Muslims, Chinese, and Indians are missing out on these things and thus aren't advancing. Essentially we've replicated the same goal as vanilla EU3, that Europe ends up ahead. However we have two distinct benefits: Europe's edge develops during the game rather than being a static rule and westernization makes significantly more sense with relative levels of development rather than hopping through different groups. In doing so, we don't really increase the complexity of the game by any great measure. The way you research and how the game develops are more or less the same as vanilla EU3. However, we're eliminating some logical problems with the previous system and also making the system as a whole a little more dynamic in scope.
 

Eh up me duck

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Not much, but then again I didn't come into a thread about thermodynamics and start calling people names because I couldn't understand it. Someone else on the other hand...
Considering you're in a thread on a game forum, about technology within that game, yet don't know that technology is already variable on player choice, pot-kettle much?

This thread isn't "Who knows the most about the middle ages?". It's about gameplay mechanics. Feel free to talk about the game any day now.