New technology group mechanics

[Fawr]

Yeah, if the start date is 1399, like EU3, then all of Europe would be stagnant/pre-renaissance, but if you start at 1440, then I'd set Genoa and maybe Venice to developing. Then have events trigger the Enlightenment in France or the Netherlands ~1700, and finally industrialization in England in ~1820.

Strangely enough if you look at people's productivity in those countries you get a different story.

In Netherlands per capita income went from $761 (average for western Europe) in 1500 to $1381 in 1600 (top of Western Europe) to $2130 in 1700 (still top) down to $1838 in 1820. So if I was modeling that in more detail than EU3 does I'd say the Netherlands had best in the world technology growth from 1500 to 1700, but then declined.

Italy's income on the other hand was at $1100 in 1500 and hardly increased at all until after 1820. Of course that level is almost twice of what China was at, and well ahead of most of Europe. So I'd have said that Italy should be in the top group for technology growth from 1400 until 1500 (and a top group which is well ahead of latin EU3) but then dropped back into stagnation. Of course this would mean you had to do away with ahead of time penalties too, or else people would catch Italy far to easily (Norway & Sweden both only got their incomes up to the same as Italy in the 1800s).

There are some people who put Industralisation in England 60 years early, but my Maddison (my current source) agrees with you on 1820 (and UK income doubles from 1820 to 1870).

 

[TheDarkMaster]

If I remember right, historically the Netherlands actually triggers their own renaissance a few decades before the one in Italy reaches them, so having only the historic triggers would mean that we'd need to have one fire in Genoa and one in the Netherlands that push them to developing, which then spread outward to other parts of Europe. The goal should be to have about the whole part of Southern Europe in developing by 1500, and West Europe by 1520-1530 about.

You do however have a good point that it should be possible for nations to fall back into lower tech development levels under the right circumstances.

 

[Dafool]

You do however have a good point that it should be possible for nations to fall back into lower tech development levels under the right circumstances.

Falling back might not be the right idea. Slow progression, or a type of stagnation, might be a better way to look at it. Southern Europe doesn't embrace the Enlightenment as quickly, thus Northern Europe is going to the be the technological leader if they embrace it in the mid to late 1600's as in reality.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

Well, remember that after awhile they'll be pulled back up to the next stage, since having other nations within your tech group at a higher level then you is what triggers most nations going up to the next level. Or are you suggesting that a timed modifier for temporary stagnation would be better for the initial model/test?

 

[Dafool]

Well, remember that after awhile they'll be pulled back up to the next stage, since having other nations within your tech group at a higher level then you is what triggers most nations going up to the next level. Or are you suggesting that a timed modifier for temporary stagnation would be better for the initial model/test?

I'd suggest having an event fire that moves a nation up a tier (Medieval->Renaissance->Enlightenment). The mtth should be very high so that it doesn't randomly fire off too often. Then I would add a lot of small modifiers, say 0.95, that reduce the mtth based on qualities of your nation, such as innovativeness, ideas, discoveries, and so on. Then I would also add in a few large modifiers that drastically decrease the time, namely the point in the game (current tech levels, year, etc) and the development of other nations (is someone in your tech group already a tier up, have you discovered a higher tier nation somewhere, etc). The result, if balanced right, would be that a nation with a lot of potential (things like colonies, universities, the right ideas, the right sliders, etc) could potentially build up enough modifiers to trigger the event and then their technological jump could work as a trigger for other nations. On top of this we need to limit neighbor bonus since it's indirectly included via the reduced mtth. The result is that a "slow" nation might bump up a tier, but unless they begin to innovate themselves they will never catch up fully.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

Just one event for each level to begin with? I'm thinking of possibly actually setting this up, so I guess I'd need to do three things to make it happen:
-Set all tech groups to 100% efficiency, and create nation modifiers for each level of development I want to see.
-Somehow set all the members of each group to what level of development they should have at game start.
-Create the events that push each nation up to the next level of development.

How hard is that going to be to implement in EU3?


I'd also almost like to maybe remove the regular neighbor bonus (or at least make it much smaller then it currently is) and instead add some triggered modifiers that give a flat bonus if you have a direct neighbor that is either 1, 2, 5, or 10 tech levels higher then you in a given category. This way we actually get proper tech bleed into non-Western tech nations without them needing to be in a higher tech group.

 

[Dafool]

Just one event for each level to begin with? I'm thinking of possibly actually setting this up, so I guess I'd need to do three things to make it happen:
-Set all tech groups to 100% efficiency, and create nation modifiers for each level of development I want to see.
-Somehow set all the members of each group to what level of development they should have at game start.
-Create the events that push each nation up to the next level of development.

How hard is that going to be to implement in EU3?


I'd also almost like to maybe remove the regular neighbor bonus (or at least make it much smaller then it currently is) and instead add some triggered modifiers that give a flat bonus if you have a direct neighbor that is either 1, 2, 5, or 10 tech levels higher then you in a given category. This way we actually get proper tech bleed into non-Western tech nations without them needing to be in a higher tech group.

I too have been toying around with how something like this might be implemented. You're approaching it in way I originally thought to do, before I then switched to the idea that started this thread. Here's how I would do it:

In the technology file, split up the tech groups like so:

	western_medieval = {
		modifier = 0.65
		start_level = 3
		cav_to_inf_ratio = 0.5
	}
	western_renaissance = {
		modifier = 0.8
		start_level = 3
		cav_to_inf_ratio = 0.5
	}
	western_enlightenment = {
		modifier = 1.0
		start_level = 3
		cav_to_inf_ratio = 0.5
	}

This offers a few benefits:

Spoiler

• We can customize each group a bit more appropriately. Tiers don't need to be generic and thus a Western Renaissance nation can be slightly better than a Muslim Renaissance nation, even if they're at the same tier of development. This allows us to keep some very basic bias without making it the foundation of the technology system.

• Nations with less than 40 efficiency can't build ships. This means if we create a "Postclassic" tier prior to a "Medieval" tier for New World nations, then we can represent their isolated nature and lack of naval expertise, but still naturally give them ship building abilities once they've established some basic contact and moved up a tier.

• Similarly, nations with less than 80 efficiency can't colonize. This means we can dodge the potential issue of everyone colonizing if we go the 100 efficiency route and add in negative modifiers. It also gives us some control over who will naturally colonize. If Europe's Renaissance tier is 80 efficiency, then they can colonize once they've made that jump. If we set everyone else's Renaissance tier, the highest we should normally expect non-European nations to go, to 75 or so, then they will never naturally colonize.

• On a similar note, this means that only nations in your tier will learn of your discoveries. So if you've brought China to the Enlightenment through exploration, then the rest of Asia will still be largely oblivious.

• This also allows us to avoid a huge gameplay issue. The game calculated starting tech rates based almost entirely on efficiency. Giving everyone 100 and then negative modifiers will result in the entire world starting at European levels at later start dates.

• We can also hold a tighter grip over neighbor bonuses, since they will only apply to your tier. This means we don't have to worry about the Italians carrying the rest of Europe with them from the start.

• Lastly, modifiers are nasty and need to be reset when nations reappear or if conditions change. However, tech groups don't need to be triggered, are permanent when changed, can be set in the history files (unlike modifiers).

Then rather through one or multiple events, we nudge nations up the tiers. I'd start Europe, eastern and western minus Italy, at Medieval. Italy at Renaissance. Ottomans at Renaissance. Muslims at Renaissance. Hordes at Medieval. India at... (not really sure here). China at Renaissance. Africa at Medieval. New World at Post-Classic (a tier below medieval). We need not make every tier equal to every other one, but they should be roughly equivalent. So we could make Horde Medieval 55 efficiency while making European medieval 65 efficiency. Then Horde Renaissance could be 75 efficiency while European Renaissance would be 80 efficiency. I would personally make Enlightenment, as the last tier historically reached, 100 efficiency for every group.

This is what I've been thinking anyways. It's actually a very straightforward change. The main issue is balancing research speeds to that there's some progression at the start and also balancing the events so that they fire at reasonable times and within reasonable context.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

Yeah, the biggest thing I can think of that would be difficult to figure out how to balance is the expected dates to finish technology. The one big problem I could see was exploration spread, say if nations start going up to higher tech levels just before they'd get the effects from discovery spread, delaying when they would get it by the full discovery spread time again. You also have to assign all of the history files that have discovered for each tech group, for all of its possible levels.

Regardless of the method used, we can design the events that put a nation up to the next level.

Medieval -> Rennaissance
Base MTTH 100

Tech under 6: 3
Narrowminded +3: 1.5
Serfdom +3: 1.5
Government type; Feudal Monarchy, Despotic Monarchy, Tribal government, or Khannate: 1.2
Number of universities in your nation = 0: 1.2
Hoard: 1.2
Stability < 3: 1.3
Stability < 1: 1.5
Stability < -1: 5

Tech over 10: 0.8
Innovative -1: 0.95
Innovative -3: 0.95
Innovative -5: 0.95
Free subjects -1: 0.95
Free subjects -3: 0.95
Free subjects -5: 0.95
Government type; Merchant republic, grand merchant republic, Absolute Monarchy, constitutional Monarchy, or constitutional republic: 0.8
Idea; Scientific revolution: 0.8
Sea spaces discovered >= whatever 75% of the total of the world is: 0.9
Overseas provinces >= 1%: 0.95
Adviser Philosopher skill >=4: 0.95
Adviser Natural Scientist >=4: 0.95

Another nation in your large tech group is in Renaissance or enlightened (is this possible to check?): 0.5
You neighbor a nation that is in any Renaissance or enlightened tech group: 0.25

I thought I'd put in all the modifiers that would apply to any moving up to another level, but used tech more appropriate to specifically medieval to renaissance.

EDIT: Forgot stability.

 

[Dafool]

I actually just threw this together. It's very similar to what you've suggseted:

Spoiler

country_event = {
	id = XXXXX
	title = "EVTNAMEXXXXX"
	desc = "EVTDESCXXXXX"
	trigger = {
		technology_group = western_medieval
	}
	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 3600
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.8
			NOT = {
				innovative_narrowminded = -1 
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.6
			NOT = {
				innovative_narrowminded = -3 
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			ADM = 6 
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			ADM = 8  
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			MIL = 6 
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			MIL = 8  
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			DIP = 6 
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			DIP = 8  
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			prestige = 0.33  
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.94
			prestige = 0.66  
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			natural_scientist = 3 
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.94
			natural_scientist = 5 
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			statesman = 3 
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.94
			statesman = 5 
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			naval_reformer = 3 
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.94
			naval_reformer = 5 
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			army_reformer = 3 
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.94
			army_reformer = 5 
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			treasurer = 3 
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.94
			treasurer = 5 
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			philosopher = 3 
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.94
			philosopher = 5 
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			artist = 3 
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.94
			artist = 5 
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.9
			idea = patron_of_art 
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.9
			trader = ecumenism
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.9
			trader = humanist_tolerance
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.9
			trader = quest_for_the_new_world
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			any_owned_province = { NOT = { religion = THIS } }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.925
			any_owned_province = { NOT = { religion_group = THIS } }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.9
			any_owned_province = { NOT = { *european culture* } }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.75
			any_known_province = { 
				OR =  {
					continent = north_america
					continent = south_america
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.90
			any_owned_province = { university = yes }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			any_owned_province = { fine_arts_academy = yes }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			any_owned_province = { weapons = yes }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			any_owned_province = { wharf = yes }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			any_owned_province = { refinery = yes }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			any_owned_province = { textile = yes }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			any_owned_province = { city_size = 25000 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			any_owned_province = { city_size = 100000 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			any_owned_province = { city_size = 500000 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.5
			any_known_country = { 
				technology_group = western_renaissance
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.4
			any_known_country = { 
				neighbor = THIS
				technology_group = western_renaissance
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.2
			any_known_country = { 
				technology_group = western_enlightenment
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.1
			any_known_country = { 
				neighbor = THIS
				technology_group = western_enlightenment
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			any_known_country = { 
				NOT = { technology_group = THIS }
				tech_difference = 15
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			any_known_country = { 
				NOT = { technology_group = THIS }
				neighbor = THIS
				tech_difference = 15
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			any_known_country = { 
				NOT = { technology_group = THIS }
				tech_difference = 30
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			any_known_country = { 
				NOT = { technology_group = THIS }
				neighbor = THIS
				tech_difference = 30
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			any_known_country = { 
				NOT = { technology_group = THIS }
				tech_difference = 45
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			any_known_country = { 
				NOT = { technology_group = THIS }
				neighbor = THIS
				tech_difference = 45
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			any_known_country = { 
				NOT = { technology_group = THIS }
				tech_difference = 60
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			any_known_country = { 
				NOT = { technology_group = THIS }
				neighbor = THIS
				tech_difference = 60
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			any_known_country = { 
				NOT = { technology_group = THIS }
				tech_difference = 75
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			any_known_country = { 
				NOT = { technology_group = THIS }
				neighbor = THIS
				tech_difference = 75
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			any_known_country = { 
				NOT = { technology_group = THIS }
				tech_difference = 90
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			any_known_country = { 
				NOT = { technology_group = THIS }
				neighbor = THIS
				tech_difference = 90
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.98
			land_tech = 6
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			land_tech = 10
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.98
			naval_tech = 6
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			naval_tech = 10
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.98
			production_tech = 6
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			production_tech = 10
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.98
			trade_tech = 6
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			trade_tech = 10
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.98
			government_tech = 6
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			government_tech = 10
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.8
			year = 1450
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.6
			year = 1500
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			total_merchants = 10
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.96
			total_merchants = 20
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			any_owned_province = { cot = yes }
		}
	}
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTAXXXXX"
		technology_group = western_renaissance
	}
}

I've gone into more detail than you did. Plus I did a little bit of balancing with the mtth and the modifiers. It's very rough, but it pretty much encapsulates the idea.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

Your list is much more complete then mine is, but I noticed that you didn't include government types or stability in there. It also looks like your odds of going up to a higher level of tech group isn't affected by those outside of your tech group being at a higher tech group, only if they have a higher tech value? Even then, the actual effects seem rather low when you consider the base of 300 years to go up to a higher level. Will there still be a decision that a nation can take with a high skill ruler or high skill adviser to dramatically improve the chances of going up to the next level while also providing a temporary boost to tech growth that is the equivalent to a half step up or something.

Have you tested it at all yet? Are you planning on trying to incorporate this into Death & Taxes or something?

 

[Dafool]

Your list is much more complete then mine is, but I noticed that you didn't include government types or stability in there. It also looks like your odds of going up to a higher level of tech group isn't affected by those outside of your tech group being at a higher tech group, only if they have a higher tech value? Even then, the actual effects seem rather low when you consider the base of 300 years to go up to a higher level. Will there still be a decision that a nation can take with a high skill ruler or high skill adviser to dramatically improve the chances of going up to the next level while also providing a temporary boost to tech growth that is the equivalent to a half step up or something.[

Have you tested it at all yet? Are you planning on trying to incorporate this into Death & Taxes or something?

Governments and stability do indeed deserve a place in there. As for higher tech groups, I probably didn't think about that too much. Although the modifiers based on tech difference would do the trick, I could also add in some that check to see if you know or neighbor a Renaissance tier nation.

The mtth needs to be very high. When you have ~50 nations in a group and a 300 year mtth, it'll fire quicker than you think. The point is that one very innovative nation might jump start a larger technological shift for a group. Once Tuscany, just for example, is in the Renaissance group, every other Western group nation suddenly has a 150 year mtth before any other modifiers. If they neighbor Tuscany, then it's a mere 60. Once it's past 1450 it becomes 48 years. You can see how it looks unlikely at first, but given enough modifiers, it quickly becomes much more likely.

Here's an example of what a rather uninspired France might get:

.95 from ADM = 6
.95 from MIL = 6
.95 from DIP = 6
.96 from prestige 33
.96 & .94 from one good advisor
.9 from a university
.96 from city size
.5 from knowing a Renaissance tier nation
.4 from bordering a Renaissance tier nation (presumably an Italian state)
.98, .98, .98, .98, & .98 from having tech level 6 in everything
.8 for it being past 1450
.95 for having a CoT

All these combine for a result of roughly 26 years. And yes, we could potentially control this a bit more through decisions and events. For example, a good and prestigious ruler might be able to spend a ton of cultural points to take a cultural decision called "Encourage the Renaissance" which could give you a modifier that lowers the mtth. There's a lot of ways to approach it.

And no, I don't have a particular use for this at the moment. Although I wouldn't mind whipping it up seeing how it actually functions. My guess is that balance will be the big issue.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

If things end up being too difficult to balance, going for fewer modifiers with a few definite limits on whether or not a nation can go up a level might not be a bad idea to start with. You can also start with a simple proof of concept thing where you only have generic spread events, and just fire off separate initializing events for where the advances happened historically to see if you can balance that first.

 

[Dafool]

My concern is less about the speed or consistency of how the event fires (I've done enough modding to know that an event with well thought out triggers and modifiers tends to work well), but instead with balancing the tech speeds. Namely, it'll be very hard to fix the expected year for each tech level and also to balance the research efficiencies so that we don't encourage perpetual dark ages. Some small peripheral changes to things like neighbor bonus, westernization, sliders, and so on would also need to take place. Essentially, there's no way to do this without a massive overhaul to the technology system. The idea is actually almost the same as EU's model, simply a type of tiered westernization, but it affects a lot of other aspects of the game in new ways.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

I'm not sure there is a whole lot more to talk about then, unless a sort of test/practice mod is made for people to play around with and try to balance. The concept is pretty much down.

 

[Dafool]

Yes. I think I'm going to fiddle with this a bit and see what I can put together. Perhaps a mini-mod of sorts. The theory and method are easy enough to work with. It's mainly trying to produce some results at this point.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

Hmm, I think the best thing that this would be for would be alternative history or non-Earth scenarios. Especially if there is a CK2 to EU3/4 converter.

Looking forward to it. Please be sure to mention it in this thread if you do make it.

 

[Fawr]

You neighbor a nation that is in any Renaissance or enlightened tech group: 0.25

This (or even Dafool's 0.4/0.2/0.1) seems a very big modifier for neighbouring countries. Particually when you think of the minimal impact a historical Goa, Oman, Malacca or Macao had on the neighbouring states.

Could you make it 0.4 for neighbouring and capitals nearby (or on the same continent if nearby is hard)? Then have a lesser modifier (I'd say another 0.95) for neighbouring but on only via outposts/colonies.

My concern is less about the speed or consistency of how the event fires (I've done enough modding to know that an event with well thought out triggers and modifiers tends to work well), but instead with balancing the tech speeds.

Looking at your events I'd be worried that lots of countries in the rest of the world would become enlightened by the end of the game. My maths suggests that you have more than half of the countries outside Europe being enlightened by the end of the game. If a rest of the world country becoming enlightened is like Japan's modernisation of the 1860s then wouldn't you only want it to be likely that 0 or 1 countries in Asia/Africa/America to get there by the end of a hand's off game? Alternativly add an extra tier or two of tech groups.

Otherwise thats an impressive list of modifiers, and it covers off a lot of the things I was thinking of suggesting already. I was thinking that a high base tax value represented the highly urbanised parts of the world which would be an alternative to using urban population (which in vanilla EU3 is an unmitigated joke).

Namely, it'll be very hard to fix the expected year for each tech level and also to balance the research efficiencies so that we don't encourage perpetual dark ages. Some small peripheral changes to things like neighbor bonus, westernization, sliders, and so on would also need to take place. Essentially, there's no way to do this without a massive overhaul to the technology system. The idea is actually almost the same as EU's model, simply a type of tiered westernization, but it affects a lot of other aspects of the game in new ways.

I'd think that you would want to reduce a lot of the ahead of time penalties. Some countries got a long way ahead of others (for example productivity in Italy in 1500 was higher than Sweden in 1700). The really strong ahead of time penalties in EU3 stop that happening.

modifier = {
	factor = 0.9
	any_owned_province = { NOT = { *european culture* } }
}
modifier = {
	factor = 0.75
	any_known_province = { 
		OR =  {
			continent = north_america
			continent = south_america
		}
	}
}

I think you need to amend these two conditions. For example the Aztecs will tick both those boxes at the start of the game.
I think the first one should have both one european culture and one non-european culture province.
The second one I'd do it like this (knowledge of both the eastern and western hemispheres)

modifier = {
	factor = 0.75
	any_known_province = { 
		AND = {
			OR =  {
				continent = north_america
				continent = south_america
			}
			OR =  {
				continent = europe
				continent = asia
				continent = africa
			}
		}
	}
}

Then rather through one or multiple events, we nudge nations up the tiers. I'd start Europe, eastern and western minus Italy, at Medieval. Italy at Renaissance. Ottomans at Renaissance. Muslims at Renaissance. Hordes at Medieval. India at... (not really sure here). China at Renaissance. Africa at Medieval. New World at Post-Classic (a tier below medieval). We need not make every tier equal to every other one, but they should be roughly equivalent. So we could make Horde Medieval 55 efficiency while making European medieval 65 efficiency. Then Horde Renaissance could be 75 efficiency while European Renaissance would be 80 efficiency. I would personally make Enlightenment, as the last tier historically reached, 100 efficiency for every group.

Looking at Madison's productivity numbers again Western Europe in Medieval times (1000-1500) grew its productivitly on average 3 times as fast as China and 4 times as fast as Eastern Europe, so I would use that kind of data as a starting point for how fast countries are growing their technology at the start of the game. The rest of that data is here (the 2nd last table) - http://www.ggdc.net/MADDISON/other_books/HS-8_2003.pdf. It doesn't cover hordes, and there is a lack of data around the American estimates, but India's growth rate from 1000-1500 is about 2/3rds that of China.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

I did think of one other thing, by having each nation with its own tech group, you can name them appropriately. So while the 40-60% range for Europe would be "medieval," the new world's might be, "Post contact."

 

[Dafool]

This (or even Dafool's 0.4/0.2/0.1) seems a very big modifier for neighbouring countries. Particually when you think of the minimal impact a historical Goa, Oman, Malacca or Macao had on the neighbouring states.

Could you make it 0.4 for neighbouring and capitals nearby (or on the same continent if nearby is hard)? Then have a lesser modifier (I'd say another 0.95) for neighbouring but on only via outposts/colonies.

The idea is to promote a spread within that group. This means we need some strong modifiers to represent the fact that the next tier has already shown up in your group. Without it being based on neighbors, it'll spread very randomly, with Gotland being just as likely as France to become the next Renaissance state.

Looking at your events I'd be worried that lots of countries in the rest of the world would become enlightened by the end of the game. My maths suggests that you have more than half of the countries outside Europe being enlightened by the end of the game. If a rest of the world country becoming enlightened is like Japan's modernisation of the 1860s then wouldn't you only want it to be likely that 0 or 1 countries in Asia/Africa/America to get there by the end of a hand's off game? Alternativly add an extra tier or two of tech groups.

As I said to TheDarkMaster, the nice thing about a system such as this is that it's not generic. This event is designed for Europeans, not the RotW. We could thus adjust theirs accordingly.

Otherwise thats an impressive list of modifiers, and it covers off a lot of the things I was thinking of suggesting already. I was thinking that a high base tax value represented the highly urbanised parts of the world which would be an alternative to using urban population (which in vanilla EU3 is an unmitigated joke).

My only issue with base tax is that it's not based on anything tangible, has no historical basis, and is heavily biased towards Europe. City cize, at least for the first part of the game and much longer with some small modding work, is a better representation of urbanization.

I'd think that you would want to reduce a lot of the ahead of time penalties. Some countries got a long way ahead of others (for example productivity in Italy in 1500 was higher than Sweden in 1700). The really strong ahead of time penalties in EU3 stop that happening.

A lot of things would need to be altered. I've yet to figure out exactly what yet.

I think you need to amend these two conditions. For example the Aztecs will tick both those boxes at the start of the game.
I think the first one should have both one european culture and one non-european culture province.
The second one I'd do it like this (knowledge of both the eastern and western hemispheres)

modifier = {
	factor = 0.75
	any_known_province = { 
		AND = {
			OR =  {
				continent = north_america
				continent = south_america
			}
			OR =  {
				continent = europe
				continent = asia
				continent = africa
			}
		}
	}
}

Going back, this is for Europeans, not anyone else. The conditions under which China reaches the Enlightenment or the Aztecs reach Medieval might be different from Europe's.

Looking at Madison's productivity numbers again Western Europe in Medieval times (1000-1500) grew its productivitly on average 3 times as fast as China and 4 times as fast as Eastern Europe, so I would use that kind of data as a starting point for how fast countries are growing their technology at the start of the game. The rest of that data is here (the 2nd last table) - http://www.ggdc.net/MADDISON/other_books/HS-8_2003.pdf. It doesn't cover hordes, and there is a lack of data around the American estimates, but India's growth rate from 1000-1500 is about 2/3rds that of China.

While interesting, such an article would make the average historian uneasy. For comparative purposes it might be useful to get an idea of how nations stack up to each other at different times. However I doubt there is too much to be extrapolated from the actual numbers.

 

[Eh up me duck]

Nice to see the revisionist trolls have lived on after the death of the New World thread anyway.