New sunday game: Götterdämmerung, Kaffeeklatsch und Auspufftöpfe!

[ForzaA]

The plan was to end at 17.00 so we could all watch the match on sunday.

In that case I propose we play a NORMAL, REGULAR session
It's bad enough I got drafted to watch the Dutch games.....

 

[ForzaA]

I still haven't heard from Robertus, Fredrik and Eskimo.

Is Fredrik ("still") perm anyway?
I seem to recall FAL muttering about his presence...

 

[ForzaA]

Good thing nobody listens to you anyway Forzaa

yeah, isn't it?

- and when did you become demi-mod??? Well grats i guess :wacko:

about a month ago ... so you'd better start listening to me
[or else I'll send FAL after you - he's the demi-mod around these parts afterall ]

 

[ForzaA]

Damn you Youngsters. I remember when you two first joined, innocent and filled with the joys of youth.

Just tell me when to show up and I will

you remember when *I* joined?
I find this claim.... somewhat dubious (though I'll admit my memory isn't perfect.... then again, isn't that a sign of old age? )

 

[ForzaA]

hold it!

Just because you looked around to see if everyone could play doesn't make those times "the times", or does it?

..if you think it does I hereby resign.

to clarify, it's ridiculous that you even CONTEMPLATE subbing, or having AIed, my nation because you decide that the times I signed up for aren't the times we play.
(also, I see I've been noted down for the 16th, while I said something that was more like a no than a yes)

now if there's 5 players that can't play at the normal time, while I'm the only one not able to play these alternative times, you might have a case... but that's not really the situation as I see it...

 

[ForzaA]

AAR reward: 200 ducats (+ on time bonus: 1% inflation reduction)


...ofcourse that FAL has to disappear just before I finish my AAR and claim my reward


But I'm confident that our benevolent GM will edit the save to give me my rewards
[or let me do it, if he can't be bothered]

 

[ForzaA]

Forzaa: You wrote that 9th was likely no, which is why i set the ( ).

Which I didn't protest..

The 16th you argued that you needed dinner, thus i have set 30 off for that, which means we only start a little early, and due to that cut of an hour. 7 hours of MP is long enough i think.

except that 30 mins (usually) isn't enough... in general I consider 17.00-19.00 "dinner time"

FAL is out the next 2 weeks, Seen was unable the next 3 as i recall, Fredrik...well who knows, seems he is unavailable a lot,

..which goes for both normal and "new" times

Forzaa is probably out 2/3 sessions,

..only in case of "new times" (well, birthday probably also with "original times".. though it looks like evening is easier to keep clear of interference than daytimes)

Smn can only play this sunday if we play early, but he does have the tag team, so i'm not quite sure there.

well, that's the first reason to move THAT session

If we don't do anything, it looks like postponing the game 3 weeks, maybe even more as others start their vacation in end of july/start of august.

so, rather than postpone, you move it to a more inconvenient time

So all in all i believe it is justified that we look into other options. Only 2-3 players were able to play weekdays as you suggested, thou you didn't mention which days you could play.

I never challenged the notion of LOOKING INTO.. rather I challenge the notion of looking into, noting that it doesn't work, and still doing it

..and I didn't mention days because the exact day would be pretty forgiving.. I could've adapted to other people's prefernces, if there had been a good majority.

 

[ForzaA]

We are not playing the sunday session at the normal time, since there is the final in the WC. If we play we do it at 12.00 so i recon you can't play.

ehh... we've got two opposed to earlier time (1 an impossible, 1 "ugh, can't we just play at the normal time") .. how many 'must' see the football?

 

[ForzaA]

I have a question, now that our GM is on vacation.

a) Is it okay to attack a nations vassels if the overlord ain't in alliance with them?

b) If not, is it okay to attack them if you are at war with the overlord?

a) technically, the rules allow it... (for AI vassals) I'd say the rule *should* be read as "no, not okay"

b) I'd say yes.

 

[ForzaA]

How do you reason for this?

because 1) a vasalisation is a form of alliance...and 2)[more important] that there are good reasons not to be allied to an AI vasal...

let's say POL and RUS are allied, and RUS has Georgia as a vasal... POL is attacked by SWE, and wants RUS to help her...

now if RUS/POL has allied with GEO as well, that'll undoubtedly lead to a dishonouring of alliance, relation drop etc. (and GEO would at that time be open to attack from TUR, since it's not allied to RUS)
...whereas this wouldn't be the case if GEO wasn't allied, and the rule would be interpreted as I would interpret it.

...so to make absolutely clear where I stand (answering the question as formulated in 999)..

on 1) NO if it is an AI vasal (yes if the vasal is a human player)
on 2) YES in all cases

 

[ForzaA]

As i said before, this approach leads to an unlimited number of exploits. For example:
-Vassalizing all AI nations with a CoT. Very easy to do and you dont have to annex all that much in Asia to totally dominate trade. You can quickly block off practically all out-of-Europe centers from enemies. If the nation has a supreme navy, the naval game is practically over.
-Russia has no chance at all to take Lithuanian territory.
-Vassals can be created as buffer nations practically anywhere, forcing the attacker to DoW twice or more.

All three of them are covered by allowing #2 (being at war with those vasals if at war with the overlord) --and if someone can vasalise all those asian states, it could've also taken the CoTs and defend it from there... given that vasalising needs more WS (in general) than CoT provinces.

...sorry, I don't see the exploit there...

 

[ForzaA]

Quite often, they cant take the CoT. For example, their BB could be very high, which is quite common when navals start gobbling ROTW land. So, just to block off another player's ability to take a CoT, they can instead vassalize those nations.

The same goes for expansion in Europe. Austria could vassalize Lorraine very fast, or all German minors around BB, forcing them to mount full-scale attacks if they want the provinces. This in a situation where they arent really capable of doing that, least of all and early-game BB that has been blocked off all possible routes of expansion.
Poland could vassalize the Baltics, completely negating all Swedish and Russian attempts to make a landing there, forcing them to mount extremely demanding attacks on the Polish mainland (assuming Russia gets past Lithuania).
Naturally, since your rule allows it, Poland is not allied to Lithuania. So, he can practically sit tight for decades, with a large enough army and just kill off all attempts from Russia and Sweden to reach him. Russia cant take any land from Lithuania and he cant stabhit Poland for the warscore she gains.

There are a hundred more instances where this proposal could be extremely exploited.

The rule only said "have to be at war with"..not "have to make the demands from the overlord"

 

[ForzaA]

Stats!

....and I want alberoni fixed (had an insanity and some diplomatic argument thingy...)

 

[ForzaA]

Abs,

So a very late sub, coming in just towards the end, joins the war... And it is Holland who does it, versus France... :wacko:

You should have known the ingame talk I had with Eskimo earlier the session when he treated FRA badly in a small trading incident. I instructed him that the prime objective of HOL always has to be a good friend of FRA. He told me he had been and he could not understand why FAL did take Brabant from him. Well I told him FAL must have had a good reason, that Eskimo had done something bad to FRA. Well, now they definitely have. If HOL continues this war it means they will be smashed to pieces in the end game by FRA. That is how it usually is in EU MP when the Dutch have the French as an enemy.

Well done Absolut, you have just now, in red blood, signed the death sentence for the Dutch. Unless, of course, Eskimo withdraws from the war and instead joins the good side. That may make FAL forget this mosquito bite.

Well.. from the PoV of a (mostly) neutral observer, it would seem that the French really started the whole thing by invading for Brabant... so it's not like Absolut should be blamed for "escalating the conflict" - unless, that is, the Netherlands are just expected to turn the other cheek at the whim of the French
ie. that "good reason" for France was certainly not obvious (probably the very simple "because I can and have a core")

---
For the record, I'm against any sort of edit that affects the game that hasn't been specifically allowed, and is not to fix errors, bugs, or the like.

 

[ForzaA]

I am back.

ah, finally some remotely competent GMing

 

[ForzaA]

Hehehe......perhaps Portugal should take a larger part of Iberia for that insult.

the attempt would be... interesting..

and would leave a great mess, too o

 

[ForzaA]

Anyone want to borrow a mouse?

 

[ForzaA]

ah yes.. edits.. just to make sure

    historicalmonarch = { 
        id = { type = 6 id = 4151 } 
        name = "Carlos III" 
        category = monarch 
        rank = 100 
        startdate = { year = 1700 month = november day = 2 } 
        deathdate = { year = 1740 month = october day = 20 } 
        ADM = 7 
        DIP = 3 
        MIL = 6 
        dateCompleted = { year = 1721 month = january day = 8 } 
        oADM = -1 
        oDIP = 6 
        oMIL = -1 
        }

should be replaced with:

    historicalmonarch = { 
        id = { type = 6 id = 4151 } 
        name = "Carlos III" 
        category = monarch 
        rank = 100 
        startdate = { year = 1700 month = november day = 2 } 
        deathdate = { year = 1740 month = october day = 20 } 
        ADM = 9 
        DIP = 9 
        MIL = 8 
        dateCompleted = { year = 1721 month = january day = 5 } 
        oADM = 7 
        oDIP = 6 
        oMIL = 6 
        }

atleast, if the game's to be trusted

...stoopid stacking monarch effects (Alberoni, and then some -4 DIP and a temporary insanity or so)

additionally: -1 inflation for being on time...
..and perhaps a bonus for an AAR (if I can set myself too it, BAD weather here (35 C or so))

 

[ForzaA]

I have never heard about any game where we edit the consequences of this really bad "bug".

I know that every time I've encountered it, or others have encountered it where I was GM that it was fixed.

 

[ForzaA]

[*]Fixed French cores, a left over from the cambers of Reunion event

How many times do I have to tell you that not getting cores on Iberia is WAD