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Jul 24, 2003
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Fredrik82 said:
FAL,
Poland was doomed. I fought gustavus Sweden, Russia and Brandenburg. And they wanted like 6-7 provinces in total.
There is nothing that can save Poland now, why?
Because those guys in those countries allready made up there mind. Same to Austria.

I guess it's indeed the old mentality of 'Poland must die' that makes it near impossible for any Poland to prosper. It's just that I felt a new perm could have meant a change in alliances and diplomacy. Oh well. I am over it ;)

So, for next session I edit the Austrian leader file to Bavaria, who will become the new defender of the empire. Brandenburg will become Prussia in 1700. Bavaria managed to win the struggle for power in the HRE with Austria I guess :)
 
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smn said:
Regarding Austria. It has been clear for a long time that to have a viable power in southern Germany, either Austria or Bavaria has to go. Naturally, Bavaria wanted the power to be gone be Austria, and that is what happened. And it is good for Bavaria and the game, but bad for Austria (Anything is better for the HRE than equal-sized Bavaria and Austria endlessly infighting). The fact that it was Austria getting destroyed, not Bavaria, is because of in-game events, i.e. diplomacy and warfare.

Thanks, smn
It was interesting to me to get direct Forza adequate opinion about this matter. But he avoided the answer and preferred another type of arguement, which come to subjective things. This opinion can`t be interesting of course.

smn said:
Also, looks like a war-weary France is able to defeat the Iberians and Venice who have carefully prepared for the war. So I guess it wasn't that unfair after all.

I never called it is unfair, it was interesting and entertaining. After all, it was me, who warned Venice beforehand, and i knew i`ll fight 3 countries, not one. But i find Forza position hardly entertaining, that he thinks
- grabbing couple of more countries in his alliance is required
- France has to be dowed, while they are on the mission, not related with any France gain at all. I don`t think FAL, and clearly not me, were going to search Austria or Poland as allies.
 

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Fredrik82 said:
Poland was doomed. I fought gustavus Sweden, Russia and Brandenburg. And they wanted like 6-7 provinces in total.
There is nothing that can save Poland now, why?
Because those guys in those countries allready made up there mind. Same to Austria.

I do disagree that Poland was doomed. You fought well and lost in the end since the alliance was too big. But Poland would not have lost anything irreplacable. It is not like these alliances would last forever, with power shifting and new options & powers arising. Also, Mulli even stated that he's ready to give Gdansk back in exchange for his original claim, whatever that is.
 
Jul 24, 2003
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Anyway, France offers the gangbangers a gracious peace: Liguria to France and a non-agression pact signed with Spain, Portugal and Venice.

Would the gangbangers deny us this peace, we will be more than happy to fight on.
 

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Tonioz said:
I never called it is unfair, it was interesting and entertaining. After all, it was me, who warned Venice beforehand, and i knew i`ll fight 3 countries, not one. But i find Forza position hardly entertaining, that he things
- grabbing couple of more countries in his alliance is required
- France has to be dowed, while they are on the mission, not related with any France gain at all. I don`t think FAL, and clearly not me, were going to search Austria or Poland as allies.
Ok true you didn't. However I understand perfectly the spanish position here, they could not afford a France with Turenne leading the armies to choose it's time to strike. Perhaps not nice, but definitely understandable survival instinct ;)
 

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FAL said:
So, for next session I edit the Austrian leader file to Bavaria, who will become the new defender of the empire. Brandenburg will become Prussia in 1700. Bavaria managed to win the struggle for power in the HRE with Austria I guess :)

Long live the Empire! Long Live Bavaria! Long live Maximilian I!
 

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FAL said:
Anyway, France offers the gangbangers a gracious peace: Liguria to France and a non-agression pact signed with Spain, Portugal and Venice.

Would the gangbangers deny us this peace, we will be more than happy to fight on.
England kinda want something aswell you know ;)

I'd like a COT in the new world, preferably one in Asia.
 

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smn said:
Ok true you didn't. However I understand perfectly the spanish position here, they could not afford a France with Turenne leading the armies to choose it's time to strike. Perhaps not nice, but definitely understandable survival instinct ;)

Heh, i remember in Unleashed: Exploded i fought 1 on 1 vs Drake`s Turenne as Spain with Portugal and Italy as my lands. Well, Turenne won, but with all mercs on my side, our losses were rather equal. Portugal+Spain+Venice could bring twice more troops and they had 3 command centers to control things and be able to attack from different sides.
So they had full initiative.
 

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smn said:
I do disagree that Poland was doomed. You fought well and lost in the end since the alliance was too big. But Poland would not have lost anything irreplacable. It is not like these alliances would last forever, with power shifting and new options & powers arising. Also, Mulli even stated that he's ready to give Gdansk back in exchange for his original claim, whatever that is.
Hehe, it might.
But facts remain that this "alliance" has lasted since day one.

And you consider Poland playable after it will loose 6-7 of its most importent provinces?
That Poland had less MP then Brandenburg, even with my original provinces. Loosing more ground MP wise and land wise like this only speed up the unavoidable.
 

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Fredrik82 said:
Hehe, it might.
But facts remain that this "alliance" has lasted since day one.
Untrue, the Sultan used to be allied to Poland and this way tempted Austria to stay impartial and let Poland and France to attack Bavaria and Brandenburg in peace.

Fredrik82 said:
And you consider Poland playable after it will loose 6-7 of its most importent provinces?
That Poland had less MP then Brandenburg, even with my original provinces. Loosing more ground MP wise and land wise like this only speed up the unavoidable.

Well, Bavaria didn't become unplayable when losing the Rhinean provinces, nor did it become unplayable when selling the Italian lands to Venice. Weaker maybe, but not unplayable or doomed.
Poland on the other hand is still worlds leader in land tech and has infra5 to counter the creeping inflation. Maybe after that war Brandenburg was stronger than Poland in a one on one, but that's what diplomacy is for.
 
Jul 24, 2003
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Fredrik82 said:
England kinda want something aswell you know ;)

I'd like a COT in the new world, preferably one in Asia.

I wrote that before I knew we were allied. Anyway...considering Portugal has attacked France over and over again, I full well support England demanding a CoT from them.
 

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smn said:
Untrue, the Sultan used to be allied to Poland and this way tempted Austria to stay impartial and let Poland and France to attack Bavaria and Brandenburg in peace.
OE didn't once actually help poland in a war with force.
I dont think you can consider that a valid ally.



smn said:
Well, Bavaria didn't become unplayable when losing the Rhinean provinces, nor did it become unplayable when selling the Italian lands to Venice. Weaker maybe, but not unplayable or doomed.
Poland on the other hand is still worlds leader in land tech and has infra5 to counter the creeping inflation. Maybe after that war Brandenburg was stronger than Poland in a one on one, but that's what diplomacy is for.
Oh please, stop it.
You and i very well know that the way the Polish neighbours has acted is that they want Poland dead. This is not a coincidence.
Poland was ganged with odds that will cripple it, it was suppose to die.

That has been the policy for those countries for a long time. "Move to England Fred", "When Poland has been ganged, you could always move to another country". etc etc etc.

Why even bother keeping this discussion alive anyways?
If you so desperatly want Poland alive, perhaps you should take this with your allies instead. Not much i can do about it.
 

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FAL said:
I wrote that before I knew we were allied. Anyway...considering Portugal has attacked France over and over again, I full well support England demanding a CoT from them.
With most of the Portugese fleet sunked and Lisbon taken, and not to mention that high WE Portugal got, i think that is more then reasonable.
Not to mention that we can stabhit them for a lifetime also :)
 

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Fredrik82 said:
OE didn't once actually help poland in a war with force.
I dont think you can consider that a valid ally.

Well, it kept Austria from defending it's allies when Poland invaded Brandenburg. Simply by placing enough troops on the border. Then again, it was Austrias choice not to risk more and act anyway.


Fredrik82 said:
Oh please, stop it.
You and i very well know that the way the Polish neighbours has acted is that they want Poland dead. This is not a coincidence.
Poland was ganged with odds that will cripple it, it was suppose to die.

That has been the policy for those countries for a long time. "Move to England Fred", "When Poland has been ganged, you could always move to another country". etc etc etc.

Why even bother keeping this discussion alive anyways?
If you so desperatly want Poland alive, perhaps you should take this with your allies instead. Not much i can do about it.
Agreed on the fact that Brandenburg wanted Poland dead or diminished. Quite natural of them to do so. Pretty much disagreed on the rest. Poland was a massive superpower, the sort of power that could not be defeated by any of its neighbours alone. This war would have brought it down to rational levels, but left it still a force big enough to be recognized.
 

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Tonioz said:
Thanks, smn
It was interesting to me to get direct Forza adequate opinion about this matter. But he avoided the answer and preferred another type of arguement, which come to subjective things. This opinion can`t be interesting of course.
Well, maybe you should make clear than that you did NOT refer to the specific session, but to the more general game :rolleyes:
...In which case the answer is "We should get away from the thought that no country may die, though we shouldn't go out of our way to make sure countries die, either"

But i find Forza position hardly entertaining, that he thinks
- grabbing couple of more countries in his alliance is required
I never said that.. there's a SIGNIFICANT difference between "countries CAN join" and "countries MUST join"

- France has to be dowed, while they are on the mission, not related with any France gain at all. I don`t think FAL, and clearly not me, were going to search Austria or Poland as allies.
Securing your eastern flank, even though you proclaim it "totally unrelated" or "unintended", remains just that, securing your eastern flank... So it's complete nonsense that you didn't gain anything from it.

I'm pretty sure *most* people don't keep troops watching borders with their allies, and only minimal (if at all) at borders with countries you just defeated.
 

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smn said:
Well, it kept Austria from defending it's allies when Poland invaded Brandenburg. Simply by placing enough troops on the border. Then again, it was Austrias choice not to risk more and act anyway.



Agreed on the fact that Brandenburg wanted Poland dead or diminished. Quite natural of them to do so. Pretty much disagreed on the rest. Poland was a massive superpower, the sort of power that could not be defeated by any of its neighbours alone. This war would have brought it down to rational levels, but left it still a force big enough to be recognized.

Very true.
As Brandenburg it is natural for me to want to expand at their expense.
While I did not necessarily want them dead, at least not on the short- and middlerun I did want all german provinces from them for understandable reasons. I agree with Fred, however, that as of yesterday evening Poland was doomed. It´s backbone was broken, it´s power severly diminished.
The only thing which could have saved Poland would have been to ally Sweden.
That´s something which actualy surprised me, Fred. Didn´t you try to ally Sweden? It´s the logical thing to do.....and had you done it....neither I nor Russia would have had any chance at all against you....:)

As for Austria :

After the austrian betrayal and all the times the Archduke had let all of us down (refusing to come to our defense when we were attacked) it was no secret that we all wanted it severly punished. I had no trust for the austrian perm, which imho was totaly justified in view of his later actions. So we acted against Austria, yes.
Then again : Last week Smn offered an honourable 1-on-1 against Austria and what happened? It´s perm said "he had to go" and left.....leaving Smn stranded with Tilly wasting year for year - hardly a fair way to deal with Austria´s own mistakes.
Now yesterday Austria got defeated after a long and bloody war in which we all had suffered a lot and then W. decided to quit - at which point I got severly mad. I apologize for my tone but not for my intention in this matter.
I just find it beneath total lowness to leave after ruining ones country and thus cowardly fleeing from the consequences of one´s own mistakes.

After all : It was W´s decision to betray us. He must have know what the consequences would be. IMO it was Austria´s CENTRAL mistake to betray us and ally with Poland. It was VERY imprudent for so obvious reasons as that Austria, in the thick of things, cannot afford to piss of so many powers - not when the OE is also knocking at the doors of Vienna.

So in conclusion : I do not view any whining about Austria as justified.
Poland, on the other hand, fought both with honour and fierceness. To them we remain deeply respectful. :)
 

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ForzaA said:
Securing your eastern flank, even though you proclaim it "totally unrelated" or "unintended", remains just that, securing your eastern flank... So it's complete nonsense that you didn't gain anything from it.

So you think it is normal conditions, when 5 French neighbors should threat&ready to dow France. And being peaceful with one of them is already great gain, and should be treated this way ?
 

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Tonioz said:
So you think it is normal conditions, when 5 French neighbors should threat&ready to dow France. And being peaceful with one of them is already great gain, and should be treated this way ?

being peaceful with one, no.
but having three out of five (and the land-oriented ones at that) taken out for a considerable duration, IS a great gain, IMO.

Counterquestion: "so you think it is normal conditions, when France can pick off her neighbours one by one, with noone lifting a finger to stop them?"
 

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ForzaA said:
being peaceful with one, no.
but having three out of five (and the land-oriented ones at that) taken out for a considerable duration, IS a great gain, IMO.

i could count two of five. So France should thank god, i see.

ForzaA said:
Counterquestion: "so you think it is normal conditions, when France can pick off her neighbours one by one, with noone lifting a finger to stop them?"

Did you mean one by three ? :p
 

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Well since my manpower is 35, yes i invested quite a lot of mercenaries in this war. Which once again shows that historical leaders like Turenne, PE and other, in my view, have a too large impact on the game.