New research system has gotten better and worse at the same time..

[kingsword]

I loved HoI and looked forward to HoI2 and loved this one too. Especially I was wondering about the new research system and saw that the new one is much more realistic and provides some definite changes among the countries' units because of being harder or easier to obtain definite techs. Tech groups are a huge innovation and works well.

In historical war games one of the most important aspects for me is realistically seperated advantages and disadvantages of armed forces, considering technological and other differences like personnel and tactics.

Thus, the new research system which forces every nation on Earth to get certain units at around the same and same statistics seems awfully absurd for me. Don't get me wrong, I love the new date penalty which makes the game much more historical, limiting unrealistic overpowering of human players.

However, nearly anybody can get the very same infantry divisions at their respective year. And all of those units are completely similar to each other! There isn't an option like "hey, let's emphasize researching assault rifles so our infantry gets the most firepower" which can be done in HoI. New comically roughed techs makes it like "Researched Infantry '45, sure thing Jim, blast away all lesser ones and have no option other than outnumbering other Infantry '45". This makes all combat a bonus and penalty calculation since all tanks are same, all infantries are same, all ships and planes are same and so on.

This won't be changed with a patch I suppose, so I just hope that mods like CORE will implement a system which makes it possible that certain countries have better units and others cannot hope to reach that in several months, maybe never at all. Some techs in HoI which required extreme dedication to research made this possible so that Mongolia didn't have the same infantry of Germany several months later..

 

[kucing]

However, nearly anybody can get the very same infantry divisions at their respective year. And all of those units are completely similar to each other! There isn't an option like "hey, let's emphasize researching assault rifles so our infantry gets the most firepower" which can be done in HoI. New comically roughed techs makes it like "Researched Infantry '45, sure thing Jim, blast away all lesser ones and have no option other than outnumbering other Infantry '45". This makes all combat a bonus and penalty calculation since all tanks are same, all infantries are same, all ships and planes are same and so on.

Almost all the time they won't have the same unit at the same time. The reason is simple, they have different tech teams and different starting techs. Those tech teams have different skill as well as specialities.

What makes each army different is their doctrine. All the major powers have their doctrine path chosen for them even in the first scenario. Therefore they will have different specialties, strength and weakness. An example is Soviet will have insane infantries with their human wave doctrine while German have good armors with the spearhead doctrine.

 

[kingsword]

The point I was referring to is that it is quite possible to see the very same infantry division in Red Army which Wehrmacht has. I don't think this is in any way possible when thinking about realism. Planes, ships and armored divisions are more distinguishable because of the tech team specialties and skill but this is about it. T-34 and Panther has still the same stats, there isn't a way to have a smaller but more effective army.

I really don't get the doctrines and how their special bonuses affect but firepower, defense and such are still the same, 0.3 IC cost deduction or increase in building infantry divisions can't be counted as something noticeable I guess..

Maybe if the five components that make up a tech were seperated what I meant would be possible, you could build a tank with smaller or larger caliber main gun for example.

 

[unmerged(20829)]

I agree with you...
The new tech system is good, the research teams are a big improvement, the new system works very well for aircrafts, ships, industry and even tanks and artillery, but shows its evident limits on infantry research.

In HoI2 a basic infantry will be always the same unit, yes there are different doctrine paths, but basically a russian infantry division will have no differences compared for example to a french one, you have no options for what concerns the equipment, in HoI you were able to research desert, artic and other specific equipment according to your needs..

I think that, if possible, the devs should create a new label under infantry research, this should contain 4 or 5 specific infantry techs, that you should research only if you really need them...

 

[unmerged(12303)]

They streamlined the tech so as to make it easier for the masses who love the click fests over at Warcraft and C&C - even though I think they wont tap into that market by doing that. The current tech tree is very similar to those in the RTS games which imo casues HOI2 to have less flavour in this respect. Pity, the tech tree in HOI1 was one of the most fun things I guess we have to wait for some mods. Although I more or less like the penalty dates I am still sceptical about the tech teams and 5 slot limitation..

F

 

[valrond]

Yep, infantries are the same, and most importantly, Tanks are the same, there's no option as there was in HoI to put different cannons in each tank your researched, so everybody has the same tanks, which is at the same time boring and ahistorical.

 

[unmerged(37680)]

Planes and ships are also the same while in HoI just radar techs alone made huge difference, and so did ASW techs, various types of rockets etc. All the extra techs made a huge difference for the same airframe or hull, and, importantly, while you could ID enemy ship classes and aircraft models in battle, you had no idea what equipment they had and thus what their combat stats were. Well, on land you also did not know enemy combat stats, and there the variation was even higher (since there was only one "model" for all unit types except armor). Even when dealing with crappy minors you could never be sure that their army had not recently been trained and equipped by their advanced allies (via tech sharing). This uncertainty really made the game more realistic and interesting.

 

[Carewolf2]

You can modify the tanks though. It is just done through attachments. For instance heavy armor is an "attachment" so is self-propelled artillerary, and right from the beginning you can add an armored car attachment to your tanks (whatever that is supposed to represent).

 

[unmerged(27576)]

i think carewolf is right the attachments do add some custamization... and u can move the attachments around to suit your needs too... i like that. Plus u can gear them in seriel and have mass buffed up artilitieries attachments right!!?!?

 

[kingsword]

Brigades are a different entity and they do not reflect the individual unit in any way. Unfortunately, in its current state the research system of HoI is extremely streamlined and kind of resembles EU2. They made it so different nations got techs at different times, yet any unit is just a copy of enemy units.

This frustrates me so much that I want to leave the game as the time being and wait for a mod which changes it. If I knew how to make I wouldn't wait a second.

It was even possible that one could research infrared sights and such, some techs needed upgrading units and some didn't. HoI was the best Paradox game considering research systems. With HoI2 there's a number of improvements: Research costing money, tech groups and their effect in research speed are great implementations but other than these, we've taken a step back. Maybe several steps..

 

[unmerged(12244)]

They streamlined the tech so as to make it easier for the masses who love the click fests over at Warcraft and C&C - even though I think they wont tap into that market by doing that. The current tech tree is very similar to those in the RTS games which imo casues HOI2 to have less flavour in this respect. Pity, the tech tree in HOI1 was one of the most fun things I guess we have to wait for some mods. Although I more or less like the penalty dates I am still sceptical about the tech teams and 5 slot limitation..

F

right on the money!

 

[Kyril]

2 things about the tech research and units:
- The tech research is in my opinion a great advantage over HOI1 in terms of realism. In the war, each country had it's own models, and the quality varied a bit, but the differences weren't that spectacular as they were in HOI1, where German tanks could be nearly 2 times as strong as their enemies tanks. The greatest differences were on the part of leadership and doctrines used. This is represented quite well in the game.
- Why are all tanks and aircraft the same sprite? Especially with the added numbers of provinces and move = attack, it really adds to the confusion having to keep your pointer over an airunit to see what the hell is flying around.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

It was even possible that one could research infrared sights and such, some techs needed upgrading units and some didn't. HoI was the best Paradox game considering research systems. With HoI2 there's a number of improvements: Research costing money, tech groups and their effect in research speed are great implementations but other than these, we've taken a step back. Maybe several steps..

HoI1's research system was overly detailed for very little gain on the grand strategic level. It put a premium on memory to be able to remember arcane research paths to reach your goals as swiftly as possibly without accidentally excluding some future tech that you would like to achieve, while making the sense of achievement upon the completion of any one tech pretty small due to the sheer number of techs being completed all the time in a large economy. What was left was the tinker-toy effect, I can custom-build my nation to use this specific type of tanks with 40mm guns, air conditioning, and a toaster, and I can understand the attraction of it even as I do not share it in a game where the focus is attempted to be on the grand strategic level. I like it in games that are focused around production - but in HoI1 (and 2), production is just a means to an end, not the focus of the game.

HoI1s approach transferred to HoI2 would be to let every single component in a HoI2 application be its own tech that the player had to assign a tech team to research at some time for a potential four to five-fold increase in techs. Given that most players would choose exactly the same winning combinations time and again rather than experiment with poor combinations, the overall result would be an increase in agony, not in gameplay.

They streamlined the tech so as to make it easier for the masses who love the click fests over at Warcraft and C&C - even though I think they wont tap into that market by doing that. The current tech tree is very similar to those in the RTS games which imo casues HOI2 to have less flavour in this respect.

HoI2s tech tree has 368 different techs for you to research, all of which are useful.... As such, the simplification seems to be for the large number of strategy players, who think you can take micromanagement too far by focusing on issues that only true grognards care about, not to make it more appealing to the C&C crowd.

The "Gee, due to my orders and allocation of resources, my nation has now researched early gears!" joy is not for every lover of strategy games.

It does reduce flavour, of course, but that is quite fine with me when the overall result is a much better game that does not get bogged down in details.

Pity, the tech tree in HOI1 was one of the most fun things I guess we have to wait for some mods. Although I more or less like the penalty dates I am still sceptical about the tech teams and 5 slot limitation..

Yes, let us reintroduce the HoI1 situation where a nation with a large IC through conquest could speed-research dozens of applications at the same time to rapidly catch up. Or say in HoI2 terms, the 5 slot limit is removed but the tech teams remain and only money talks. Time to crank consumer goods production to the maximum and pool the funds with your allies to let the nation with best teams speed-research, then pool money with the lesser-tech gifted allies to research when the blueprints are done and shared.

Or perhaps say, it is not an ideal representation, but using tech teams and slots we a) Give more character to the research system, b) have much better control over what nations of various sizes will accomplish (no dumping of tech on all AI-minors next to an enemy to create roadblocks in MP), and c) have an easier time adjusting research game balance.

 

[unmerged(12303)]

HoI1's research system was overly detailed for very little gain on the grand strategic level.

Oh how very wrong you are on that. On the grand strategic level that was the SINGLE most important aspect of how you played the game. True it was not perfect but it gave you endless possibilities on the end result of the game.

IIRC there were no posts or very little complaining about the HOI1 tech tree. True it did take time to get used to it but that and the war aspect was the most important in HOI1 ... after all it was a WAR game. Instead now we get to exploit the world market all the time..

HoI1s approach transferred to HoI2 would be to let every single component in a HoI2 application be its own tech that the player had to assign a tech team to research at some time for a potential four to five-fold increase in techs. Given that most players would choose exactly the same winning combinations time and again rather than experiment with poor combinations, the overall result would be an increase in agony, not in gameplay.

Yes well the tech teams are a bad choice for it and I wouldnt suggest using them in HOI1 as yes it would be agony.

It does reduce flavour, of course, but that is quite fine with me when the overall result is a much better game that does not get bogged down in details.

yes C&C too does not get bogged down with details... nor are the overall results in HOI much better as there is much less variation to the tactics..... just gives me a mundane feeling on my each game after the 5th one. Just have to wait for the mods I guess.

F

 

[unmerged(15764)]

I think you guys are beaing a bit to hard on hoi2, sure in hoi you could research another cannon for your tank and new stylish underwear for your troops, but sooner or later everyone else will research those as well and it really wont matter you will have divisions with the same stats. But you are right we lack the ability to focus research on better weaponry forexample but there are others ways to do this, with the doctrines, leaders and ministers.

 

[Kyril]

Oh how very wrong you are on that. On the grand strategic level that was the SINGLE most important aspect of how you played the game. True it was not perfect but it gave you endless possibilities on the end result of the game.

IIRC there were no posts or very little complaining about the HOI1 tech tree. True it did take time to get used to it but that and the war aspect was the most important in HOI1 ... after all it was a WAR game. Instead now we get to exploit the world market all the time..

Well, I guess there were less complaints in HOI1 since it was the first game of that scope. Now we can compare, and not all people will like the changes. Should the research systems be the other way around (HOI1 having Tech teams, and 2 having the detailed tech tree) people probably would be complaining about missing those tech teams, and the tech rushing which is possible in HOI1.

I will have to play some more to give my definite conclusion, but so far, it seems tech research is more balanced then in HOI1. In 1, tactics and strategy got snowed under by the difference in quality in some case. Why try and planning a detailed assault on a province, when you can just order your Panthers with stats of about 40 to drive forward, knowing the enemy will crumble before you regardless of how, when and from what direction you attack?

 

[Moltke]

I think what they are saying is it's not possible to surpass your competitors in research any longer because everyone can research the same infantry at the same time. So most major nations are only a few months apart on the latest infantry all the time.

Not very historical.

 

[unmerged(12303)]

Yes, let us reintroduce the HoI1 situation where a nation with a large IC through conquest could speed-research dozens of applications at the same time to rapidly catch up. Or say in HoI2 terms, the 5 slot limit is removed but the tech teams remain and only money talks. Time to crank consumer goods production to the maximum and pool the funds with your allies to let the nation with best teams speed-research, then pool money with the lesser-tech gifted allies to research when the blueprints are done and shared.

Or perhaps say, it is not an ideal representation, but using tech teams and slots we a) Give more character to the research system, b) have much better control over what nations of various sizes will accomplish (no dumping of tech on all AI-minors next to an enemy to create roadblocks in MP), and c) have an easier time adjusting research game balance.

since you edited this when I was typing:

Did I say the HOI1 is perfect, did I say lets go back to it?

Do you really think the tech system is much better?
a) character - what does that matter - people dont care who - they care when and how much
b) heh the error in HOI where you could give techs was obviously a mistake - blueprints is a much better option and I myslef did suggest something like that when the issue came up in HOI1... if we had that balancing would be much easier in HOI1. Furthermore mosts of the minor nations have more or less the same techs in HOI2 so your point in that is moot as it was not accomplished in HOI2.
c) Easier? Maybe. HOI1 tech was messed up a little due to the fact that there were no blueprints, costs and times were predetermined and everybody new the date when he would get it. Thats the reason why it was hard to balance. The solution in HOI2 is not a step forward its a step sideways.

Imo the tech should have been solved in the way the following way:

1) Money would be the ONLY issue that gears research - which is gained through IC/consumer goods. Smaller nations get a better ratio of money from IC. Bigger get a worse ratio.
2) Scrap the research teams as they are a waste of time
3) Leave the structure of the system how it was more or less in HOI1 - maybe get rid off stuff like gears and put it into one tech.
4) You then allocate money to each branch in a percentage.
5) Techs have their effective dates (ie when they actually were researched IRL) and the earlier you research it the less effective it is (just like in HOI2). The further you get from your RL date the bigger the penalty. Penalties could be lessened by ministers - like to make sure russia has better tanks than germany (but worse in stats) - ie. a bigger penalty in doctirnes and art for going ahead of time...
6) Once you finish a gold tech you have either a choice of moveing to the next one or leave an allocated percentage of money to develope the silver techs.

This way you have much more control over your army, its much easier to balance for all nations the techs they can have and more more realistic.

Not that it makes a difference now...

F

 

[unmerged(17928)]

IIRC there were no posts or very little complaining about the HOI1 tech tree. True it did take time to get used to it but that and the war aspect was the most important in HOI1 ...
F

I disagree! Now I didn't really complain about the tech tree in HOI1. But I don't miss anything now. I couldn't care less which type of tracks my tanks use and the type of gun is only important insofar as its underlying HA-value versus building cost/research cost is concerned.
The techs IRL were never that far different, as they happened to be in HOI1.
After all most players would go for the same techs, which proved to be the most cost effective. The tweaking effect you got from overspezialised tech trees was never much appealing to me and possibly a lot of others.
That is not to say I didn't like the approach of certain mods (namely the SuperAi bundle) which gave you the possibility to research the right machineguns, engines airframes aso. of a certain type of plane. But then again it was allways the same. It didn't really make sense to deviate from the given path. So way not cut out all this tidbits and go directly for basic dive bombers?
I'd rather try to beat the game through good field tactics than through techrushing or other research exploits!

Regards

 

[unmerged(12303)]

I disagree! Now I didn't really complain about the tech tree in HOI1. But I don't miss anything now. I couldn't care less which type of tracks my tanks use and the type of gun is only important insofar as its underlying HA-value versus building cost/research cost is concerned.
The techs IRL were never that far different, as they happened to be in HOI1.
After all most players would go for the same techs, which proved to be the most cost effective. The tweaking effect you got from overspezialised tech trees was never much appealing to me and possibly a lot of others.
That is not to say I didn't like the approach of certain mods (namely the SuperAi bundle) which gave you the possibility to research the right machineguns, engines airframes aso. of a certain type of plane. But then again it was allways the same. It didn't really make sense to deviate from the given path. So way not cut out all this tidbits and go directly for basic dive bombers?
I'd rather try to beat the game through good field tactics than through techrushing or other research exploits!

Regards

Just to be clear:

1) I would be for clearing up some of the techs - like the gearbox and stuff
2) The HOI1 system in which you knew when the tech would be invented and no historic handicaps did make it prone to exploit. I admit that and thats what I would like to change.
3) The way to win in HOI2 is mass .. not tactics. If 1 med tank cant win against 3 infantry (39) on an empty terrain how is Germany to win the war if a tank costs 4 times more than an infantry unit????

F