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It seems to me that one of the most intriguing features of EU is the fact that conquered provinces don’t automatically yield dividends. This provides a type of check and balance system that most other strategy games overlook; just look at CIV and how a captured city immediately starts producing new troops & equipment for its former tormentors.

So I’d like to get a detailed understanding of how EU manifests this “take-over penalty” from some of the forum veterans & beta testers (which are probably one in the same anyway).

It seems to work like this:
1) The province is formally ceded to you in peace negotiations
2) There is some additional stability penalty to this province that lasts for some time
3) This penalty may be compounded by religious differences

So my questions are:

1) How long does the new province hate its captors?
-I notice that in the most recent AAR (Poland Civil War by Sapura) that stability drops and then two recently captured regions revolt and declare independence right away. Then later on, a part of the Ukraine (apparently controlled by Poland since the beginning of the scenario) revolts and also declares independence.
2) How exactly does religious conversion work and does it reduce the “take-over penalty?”
- In the AAR when the Papal States converted a chunk of Muslim Northern Africa - it seemed that this province was subsequently very stable. Therefore I assume that when a province is converted by these extraordinary measures it yields favorable returns
3) Does building up destroyed infrastructure enhance the relationship between a captured province and its benefactor/captor?
- This would be something like the US Marshall Plan in post WWII Europe/Japan which were driven probably more out of a fear of creeping communist influence rather pure benevolence. This plan sent a lot of US aid into rebuilding the infrastructure of these defeated enemies and helped turn them into staunch allies within a decade. I think I saw something like this in the Venice AAR when the Poland (controlled by AI) rebuilt Damascus which had been nearly destroyed in three previous sieges. I believe the comment was that the city rebounded quickly after this action.
 

unmerged(13)

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Jiminov,

Pleased to meet you :)

that conquered provinces don’t automatically yield dividends.

Well, this depends on your meaning of 'conquered'. During a war a 'conquered' province (or captured) is of course brought under the control of the foreign power, which means that any taxes / etc are unable to be taken from this territory until a peace treaty. After a peace treaty if the province actually changes hands (as part of an agreement), then it immediately starts to 'work' for the new 'owner'.

This however may not be an altogether peachy start to a new marriage, because the province may have a population which holds vastly different religious beliefs to the rest of the country. Devastation through war also decreases stability of the province and can plunge it into an uprising.

1) The province is formally ceded to you in peace negotiations
2) There is some additional stability penalty to this province that lasts for some time
3) This penalty may be compounded by religious differences

Stability usually due to war / devastation of the cities / countryside, yes. Religious differences can play a big part.


1) How long does the new province hate its captors?

The provinces may hate its captors for centuries, especially when vastly different racial groups are inducted into a society. For example Poland ruling Prussia. England controlling Scotland, etc. This can then manifest itself during civil wars, when taken too far can lead to an 'independance' event of a country within a country. For example the civil war aar which you mention.


that stability drops and then two recently
captured regions revolt and declare independence right away.

Stability decrease due to war. Those regions did not immediatetly declare independance, it took several months.

Then later on, a part of the Ukraine (apparently controlled by Poland since the beginning of the scenario declares independence.

Yes it did, but this was only after 2-3 years of internal conflict which was not quelled successfully.

I think I saw something like this in the Venice AAR when the Poland (controlled by AI) rebuilt Damascus which had been nearly destroyed in three previous sieges. I believe the comment was that the city rebounded quickly after this action.

What actually happened with Damascus in that game was this.

a) Damascus changed hands several times over 20+ years, hence the province was constantly in a state of flux and war.

b) Poland captured the province gaining it in a peace treaty. Due to their efforts Damascus began to flourish:
i) Poles built stronger fortifications
ii) Due to stablitity and economic boom A CoT (center of trade) opened up in the city, much to my surprise.

You'll have to ask Greven about the Papacy AAR, though I'm glad you remember such little details from aar's of several weeks/months ago :) Makes some of my efforts worthwhile.

Sapura
 

unmerged(28)

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'2) How exactly does religious conversion work and does it reduce the “take-over penalty?”
- In the AAR when the Papal States converted a chunk of Muslim Northern Africa - it seemed that this province was subsequently very stable. Therefore I assume that when a province is converted by these extraordinary measures it yields favorable returns'

Note that there are two different sorts of conversions; changing your country's State religion and converting a individual province with colonists (used in a role as missionaries). It is the latter that I used in the Papal States AAR to change the religion of a single province-Tunisia.
Now the effect, I will not discuss the technic here, is that the provincereligion changes and becomes the same as your State religion. Thus Tunisia was sunnimuslim and became catholic. It took long time if one counts all the uprisings when decreasing tolerancelevel for muslim to convert it.
These things can be done but is not cost efficient if you try to convert many provinces and actually it can become quite dangerous.

/Greven
 

unmerged(212)

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Thank you both Sapura and Greven for your fast and detailed responses to my questions. Sapura - I’m glad to know that my questions make you feel better about your efforts posting AAR’s and such, because I’ve really enjoyed reading them (as well as the other excellent AARs) and getting a sense of what an epic game EU promises to be. I think that most of the forum veterans should be commended for their efforts to fill everyone else in what could possibly be the best true RTS yet.

Just a few follow up questions to make sure I have a full understanding of how things work.

First of all, regarding Race & Ethnicity: I didn’t realize that this was factored into the game to any certain extent... There have been many references to stability problems caused by different religions between a province and the official state religion of its new “owner.” So if I understand correctly provinces in France are Gallic (sp?), England are Anglo, etc.
1) Does this mean that Calais will always be prone to revolt against England?
2) Can a player try to change the ethnicity over time through colonization?

Regarding religious conversion:
1) Once a missionary is made rather than a colonist, can the missionary only be sent to provinces populated by an opposing religion?
2) Can missionaries be sent to other provinces not controlled by the player?
3) Greven - you state that converting too many provinces “Can actually become quite dangerous” Can you fill me in further as to why this is the case? I would guess that most other countries with a comparable state religion would applaud your efforts to widen the faith.
 

unmerged(212)

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Thank you both Sapura and Greven for your fast and detailed responses to my questions. Sapura - I’m glad to know that my questions make you feel better about your efforts posting AAR’s and such, because I’ve really enjoyed reading them (as well as the other excellent AARs) and getting a sense of what an epic game EU promises to be. I think that most of the forum veterans should be commended for their efforts to fill everyone else in what could possibly be the best true RTS yet.

Just a few follow up questions to make sure I have a full understanding of how things work.

First of all, regarding Race & Ethnicity: I didn’t realize that this was factored into the game to any certain extent... There have been many references to stability problems caused by different religions between a province and the official state religion of its new “owner.” So if I understand correctly provinces in France are Gallic (sp?), England are Anglo, etc.
1) Does this mean that Calais will always be prone to revolt against England?
2) Can a player try to change the ethnicity over time through colonization?

Regarding religious conversion:
1) Once a missionary is made rather than a colonist, can the missionary only be sent to provinces populated by an opposing religion?
2) Can missionaries be sent to other provinces not controlled by the player?
3) Greven - you state that converting too many provinces “Can actually become quite dangerous” Can you fill me in further as to why this is the case? I would guess that most other countries with a comparable state religion would applaud your efforts to widen the faith.
 

unmerged(13)

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First of all, regarding Race & Ethnicity: I didn’t realize that this was factored into the game to any certain extent...

Ah, sorry you misunderstood. Race is charactierised by the fact that countries which have fallen under your control (through war for example), become independent and re-gain their political status if your govt falls. This happened in the latest game which I'll write up soon. Obviously race does matter. Annexing provinces which have a Moslem (Sunni, hope I got that right Greven?) and bringing them into the fold of a country who's basically a Catholic country can cause quite a few problems, if the powers that be aren't tolerant enough of their religious standing. Tolerance can be configured in one of the option menus..

In my last few games it took nearly 80 years to 'convert' some Orthodox and sunni provinces to the Catholic faith, it really is a long process.


Sapura
 

unmerged(28)

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'Regarding religious conversion:'
I'll try to answer it the best I can.

1) Once a missionary is made rather than a colonist, can the missionary only be sent to provinces populated by an opposing religion?

No. And actually my exlaination could have been better. Your country get settlers runningly over the year. These can then be used as traders, that is tries to set up a trade post. They can also be used as a colonist and you can increase the population of a colony by adding more colonists up to 5000 inhabitants. Now using it as a missionary is actually as using it as an colonist, because it changes any colony's provincereligion to the statereligion. So you can send colonists to colonies with the same religion. And you can send them to such with opposing religion but then they asre called missionaries.

2) Can missionaries be sent to other provinces not controlled by the player?

They can be sent to Provinces you own and idependent provinces that noone own. But no you can't convert your opponents' provinces.

3) Greven - you state that converting too many provinces “Can actually become quite dangerous” Can you fill me in further as to why this is the case? I would guess that most other countries with a comparable state religion would applaud your efforts to widen the faith.

Yes. Poland-Lithuania is a good example. She has many orthodox (say 8-10) provinces. Her statereligion is catholic. Now say that I want to convert the orthodox provinces or even just one of them. Now I must decrease their province population below 5000 so that I can send a missionary there and thus change provincereligion to catholic. How do I decrease population ? Uprisings decreases population. So I have to set the tolerance level were low against orthodox. We talk about religious persecution here. Now uprisings will pop-up. But not in one province, but in every orthodox province. So you might easily have a number of rebel forces that floods you country. Secondly your neigbour check for weaknesses. if you have ten or twelve rebel armies within your borders they may find it a good time to slice you up. Sort of a variant-'Deluge'.
In the AAR when I tried to convert Tunisia I got rebellions in Tunisia, Tripolitania and Cyrenaica. It was such harsh fighting I had to give it up after converting Tunisia. You see it is not easy. :)

/Greven
 

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Great info, Greven!

I have two questions though.

1) Can you change state religion at any time?

2) Does a change of state religion affect all provinces, no matter their present religion?

If the answer is yes to both questions, it seems to me that it should be possible to switch religion and then switch back again to convert all recalcitrant provinces in one stroke.
 

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Originally posted by Doomdark on 07-22-2000 05:50 PM

'1) Can you change state religion at any time?'

Only if certain historical event has taken place. 'The Reformation', 'Jean Calvin', and 'The Council of Trent'. And there is also a 'historical' limit to which religion you could change your state religion to. Sweden can't for example become sunni muslim. :)

'2) Does a change of state religion affect all provinces, no matter their present religion?'

Affect yes, but change them no. The changing of province religion is guided by historical events. So If Sigismund changes Swedens state religion into catholicism he will be in deep trouble as every swedish province but one will be protestant.

'If the answer is yes to both questions, it seems to me that it should be possible to switch religion and then switch back again to convert all recalcitrant provinces in one stroke.'

As above. No you can't, as changing state religion doesn't change any provinces' religion.


/Greven


[This message has been edited by Greven (edited 22-07-2000).]
 

unmerged(212)

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Guys, thanks again for the answers. I think that Paradox should recognize your efforts to 'evangelize' for this game and pay for you to attend the gala surrounding the release of this game in Sweden. This, of course, assumes that EU is eventually released... I've only been lurking around this board for a month, and it already seems to be an eternity.

In the meantime, just one additional follow-up question related to Greven's post:
If you can only convert provinces with populations of less than 5K, in how many European territories is this practical? I'd guess that it wouldn't be too many. Do I also understand that a serious population decline can spell the demise of a CoT?
 

unmerged(28)

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Originally posted by Jiminov on 07-23-2000 02:17 AM

'In the meantime, just one additional follow-up question related to Greven's post:
If you can only convert provinces with populations of less than 5K, in how many European territories is this practical? I'd guess that it wouldn't be too many. '


It is never practical. :)
But if you are willing to give the process of religious persecution some 60 years you might be rewarded. But seriously provinces like Paris or Constantinople no chance in h*ll. :)

'Do I also understand that a serious population decline can spell the demise of a CoT?'

I don't actually know, but I don't think so. Never happened to me.

/Greven