New Primitives Gameplay without completely new mechanics

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Should I think of the whole primitive/reformation thing, it looks weird and Eurocentric to me. Labelling the Aztecs as primitives is not accurate, the conquistadors were literally amazed and astonished when seeing the splendor of Tenochtitlan.

What could be done to portray the early institutions more accurately?
Mainly instead of "feudalism" as one institution, we could introduce a few older pre-existing institutions as well... And perhaps have the non-embracement penalty not a 50% high but set it at 25? What do you think?

So the institutions that ought to be present are:
  1. Agriculture (the earliest institution, with text about Neolithic Revolution and stuff. Embraced by everybody except hunter- gathering tribes.)
  2. Wheel/Horse (the introduction of the wheel has allowed the development of long-distance commerce: could have effects of adding another merchant and uncovering a part of the map/alternatively if not embraced a penalty on trade? (Spread everywhere except America's and Australia)
  3. Iron Metallurgy : something about iron being stronger than copper and tin, and Better tools and stuff (increase in shock/discipline)
  4. Writing : the ability to write down ideas for future generations has been crucial in keeping knowledge up-to -date and allows scholars, scientists and inventors to think of new ideas (practically allowing research - as ideas are written down, plus higher prestige -as kings are egomaniacs usually having their glorious deeds written down. If you have it you get prestige, tech advances easier and tax income more efficient -bureaucracy and documentation of who paid how much taxes. If you don't, well perhaps upon looting you even lose some tech points, as people die in sieges and some knowledge is lost, also tax income smaller, faster prestige decay for chroniclers don't write down the glorious deeds of kings. This institution will be present in Mesoamerica and the Andes (quipu) but not elsewhere in the Americas.
  5. And then well feudalism.
 
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Compilation of other related user suggestions
Just putting together some other user suggestions here, that seem to be interesting/feasible.

General Overhaul Suggestions

Maps, Tags & Mechanics for all of the Americas by @FleetingRain
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/a-long-thread-on-primitives-and-the-americas.1401850/


South America

Maps&Tags for the whole of South-America by @Orlov Kruskayev
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...he-map-and-gameplay-of-south-america.1135662/

Maps&Tags for the Andes by @Wiracocha
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/pre-columbian-south-america-suggestions.1370414/

Potential Wastelands in South America @Dutchman251
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ds-to-southern-america.1144986/#post-25051196

New tags by @Sapa Inca
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/tags-for-south-america.1420865/


Mesoamerica

Maps&Tags for Mesoamerica by @BuchiTaton and Florida in Coop with @Lord_Baltimore
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...and-nations-suggestion.1143781/#post-25148612

Carribean map suggestion by @BalticM
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/caribbean-map-suggestion.1103933/#post-24344709


North America

Maps & Tags for the Americas by @Lord_Baltimore
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/americas-update.1393576/

Improve Totemism by @Wyndakyr
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/improve-totemism.1058196/


Oceania/Australia

Maps & Mechanics by @PyroMegaManZ
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/australasia-and-polynesia.1376592/


Mechanics

Fixing native americans gameplay with a new institution by @Sapa Inca
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...icans-gameplay-with-a-new-institution.1011496

Better federation by @hamburgertrain
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...c-for-native-americans-first-nations.1147855/

Mixed bag by @Ishmael_Dandalo, imho in this context mostly interesting for government reforms by @Lord_Baltimore
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/north-america-patch-thread.1132482/
 
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I would really love changes to the current "westernisation 2.0" system that makes playing in the americas this problematic. Especially the "big three" native american high cultures need massive changes.

I am actually in favour of massively buffing these three early on. Does noone else see the irony in nahuatl nations needing to control large amoint of vassals without knowing feudalism? Also like in asia and africa the europeans didn't magically wipe the floor with all these nations militarily (at least not on the regular, some extreme cases are known). They usually allied local powers and played them against each other.

I instead propose a completely different approach. Let the mesoamericans and inca start almost on par with the europeans. Feudalism embraced and tech level 2. since that alone would make them hilariously broken i propose that they get a massively weaker technology group, creating an artificial bottleneck there. When bordering europeans switch their tech group to one with "relatively normal" strength but hit them with severe dev reductions and very importantly with a high morale decrease due to disease for a few years. That way europeans will have the possibility to dismantle these countries quickly or see them stay relevant. For added historical flavour make new world vassals cost no dip slots just like colonial nations to emulate how especially the spanish worked there.
This original tech group would also not now cav for example.

As a sidenode can we please change the Inca to a theocracy using dynastic heirs and in general get some unique government reforms for the american high cultures?
 
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Should I think of the whole primitive/reformation thing, it looks weird and Eurocentric to me. Labelling the Aztecs as primitives is not accurate, the conquistadors were literally amazed and astonished when seeing the splendor of Tenochtitlan.
They would have been also amazed seeing the splendor of Babylon... ;)
What could be done to portray the early institutions more accurately?
Mainly instead of "feudalism" as one institution, we could introduce a few older pre-existing institutions as well... And perhaps have the non-embracement penalty not a 50% high but set it at 25? What do you think?

So the institutions that ought to be present are:
  1. Agriculture (the earliest institution, with text about Neolithic Revolution and stuff. Embraced by everybody except hunter- gathering tribes.)
  2. Wheel/Horse (the introduction of the wheel has allowed the development of long-distance commerce: could have effects of adding another merchant and uncovering a part of the map/alternatively if not embraced a penalty on trade? (Spread everywhere except America's and Australia)
  3. Iron Metallurgy : something about iron being stronger than copper and tin, and Better tools and stuff (increase in shock/discipline)
  4. Writing : the ability to write down ideas for future generations has been crucial in keeping knowledge up-to -date and allows scholars, scientists and inventors to think of new ideas (practically allowing research - as ideas are written down, plus higher prestige -as kings are egomaniacs usually having their glorious deeds written down. If you have it you get prestige, tech advances easier and tax income more efficient -bureaucracy and documentation of who paid how much taxes. If you don't, well perhaps upon looting you even lose some tech points, as people die in sieges and some knowledge is lost, also tax income smaller, faster prestige decay for chroniclers don't write down the glorious deeds of kings. This institution will be present in Mesoamerica and the Andes (quipu) but not elsewhere in the Americas.
  5. And then well feudalism.
The hard part is figuring out the institution spread triggers. I've tried in an earleir suggestion, see post above, but well...:oops:
 
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As a sidenode can we please change the Inca to a theocracy using dynastic heirs and in general get some unique government reforms for the american high cultures?
Ideally, the "religious reforms" should be transformed into government reforms (using the Dharma system). The problem then would of course be what to do with "reforming religion" gameplay? After all there must be something for them to do and keep things plausible, so tnat they are no tech superpowers once the europeans show up.

At least in my section "bonus suggestion" I'm proposing how to introduce "proper" government reforms for the north and south americans. If I'll have an idea for the others in future, I'll certainly post it here... :)
 
Ideally, the "religious reforms" should be transformed into government reforms (using the Dharma system). The problem then would of course be what to do with "reforming religion" gameplay? After all there must be something for them to do and keep things plausible, so tnat they are no tech superpowers once the europeans show up.
I like the idea of making the unique religious reforms into government reforms. Government reforms will still be Dharma or Emperor exclusive and not in the base game iirc, which makes it unlikely that pdx will implement it but we can hope.
I thought a little more about my idea with the switching tech groups. Ideally when bordering colonisers there should be a spread starting, similar to institution spread. Speed can be modified by relation, so when at war, alloed or vassalised it is way faster. Immense spead boost when coloniser troops are present.
Once it hits your capital you can "embrace" the new tech group, like with institituitions with a price depending on the percentage of dev where it spread. The price should of course not be money, but rather reformprogress or maybe MP without Dharma/Emperor
 
Just putting together some other user suggestions here, that seem to be interesting/feasible, also for my own future reference.

Better federation by @hamburgertrain
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...c-for-native-americans-first-nations.1147855/

Maps&Tags for the whole of South-America by @Orlov Kruskayev
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...he-map-and-gameplay-of-south-america.1135662/

Maps&Tags for the Andes by @Wiracocha
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/pre-columbian-south-america-suggestions.1370414/

Mixed bag, imho in this context mostly interesting for government reforms by @Lord_Baltimore
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/north-america-patch-thread.1132482/


An suggestion compilation thread for the Americas would be useful at this point
 
Update:
  • new triggered modifier for ship-building
  • potential new pre-feudalism institution for more hist. accuracy
  • moved complimentary user suggestions to main post, since threadmarks are gone after forum update
 
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A more aggressive rework of the Native Mechanics
WIP

Alright, I've been re-reading my original suggestions and I've come to the conclusion that I would like to not limit myself by being too timid about reworking or even gutting existing mechanics. So I'll just put together all I liked from the orginal suggestions and create a new threadmark for this. The Problem to be solved is still the same but the solution looks a bit different. And while I've digressing a bit from the original thread title, I feel it's worth it. :)

Solution

The aim is still to create a new way of advancement for american natives, that is not dependent on the arrival of Europeans. Also create some more intrigueing and flavouful religious mechanics based off already existing mechanics and expand other existing mechanics within the current framework to cater to the natives. However,
  • the "primitive" modifier" is eliminated and the "reform society/government/religion" decisions that get rid of the "primitive" modifier will also be eliminated
  • the current "reform government" GUI ("natives interface") for north- and south-american technology groups is eliminated
    • the native ideas are eliminated
    • the "federation" is removed from the interface and made similar to "trade leagues"
    • "migration" will work like it works for "siberian council"
  • Totemist and Animist religions will get a unique "reform religion" mechanic
  • each religion - Inti, Nahuatl, Mayan, Totemist and Animist - will get a religious mechanic modelled on Hindu Gods and Protestant Reforms, respectively
  • the "reform religion" mechanics will get new modifiers, giving the process of religious reform a new feeling of immidiancy and generally making more sense in the context
  • the names and modifiers from current "religious reforms" will be used for a new set of "government reforms" Dharma-like or moved to the technology ladder
  • "native buildings" will mostly be eliminated and where not, moved to an expanded technology ladder
  • the technology ladder will be expanded to include technolgy levels lower than 0 and american natives will start at a lower step of this ladder
  • there will be a new institution "Script" i.e. a writing and counting system, which will be present in the amercian civilisations to different degrees
  • production development of all gold producing provinces in the new world will be lowered to one to counterbalance the loss of "reduced income from gold" for the natives (a European country i.e. Spain would also need to invest its monarch power to get the gold mined, but there could also be events taht increase development once a foreign power takes possession).
  • there will be a new triggered modifiers for horses, so that natives must wait for the europeans to have cavalry
 
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Also like in asia and africa the europeans didn't magically wipe the floor with all these nations militarily (at least not on the regular, some extreme cases are known
True, but Spanish did actually have pretty strong superiority in their weapons and horses. The real reason they struggled is that there was an extremely small number of Spaniards participating in the initial conquests. They were basically the leaders and the vast, vast majority of the force was provided by minorities of the Aztec and Inca empires. The Spanish continued to use Central Mexican auxiliaries to conquer the Yucatan, Guatemala, El Salvador etc, and they applied the same tactic to conquer the Muisca in Colombia (exploit divisions to gain allies), although the early history there seems less clear.
 
Should I think of the whole primitive/reformation thing, it looks weird and Eurocentric to me. Labelling the Aztecs as primitives is not accurate, the conquistadors were literally amazed and astonished when seeing the splendor of Tenochtitlan.

What could be done to portray the early institutions more accurately?
Mainly instead of "feudalism" as one institution, we could introduce a few older pre-existing institutions as well... And perhaps have the non-embracement penalty not a 50% high but set it at 25? What do you think?

So the institutions that ought to be present are:
  1. Agriculture (the earliest institution, with text about Neolithic Revolution and stuff. Embraced by everybody except hunter- gathering tribes.)
  2. Wheel/Horse (the introduction of the wheel has allowed the development of long-distance commerce: could have effects of adding another merchant and uncovering a part of the map/alternatively if not embraced a penalty on trade? (Spread everywhere except America's and Australia)
  3. Iron Metallurgy : something about iron being stronger than copper and tin, and Better tools and stuff (increase in shock/discipline)
  4. Writing : the ability to write down ideas for future generations has been crucial in keeping knowledge up-to -date and allows scholars, scientists and inventors to think of new ideas (practically allowing research - as ideas are written down, plus higher prestige -as kings are egomaniacs usually having their glorious deeds written down. If you have it you get prestige, tech advances easier and tax income more efficient -bureaucracy and documentation of who paid how much taxes. If you don't, well perhaps upon looting you even lose some tech points, as people die in sieges and some knowledge is lost, also tax income smaller, faster prestige decay for chroniclers don't write down the glorious deeds of kings. This institution will be present in Mesoamerica and the Andes (quipu) but not elsewhere in the Americas.
  5. And then well feudalism.

This is actually an excellent, excellent idea. You got it quite right that the current system is Eurocentric (the whole game is), in addition to being frankly uncreative and unenjoyable. In real life, there was nothing inherent beyond metal weapons/armor, horses and large ships that really separated Americans from Europeans at the time of contact. They certainly were not primitive and I cringe every time I see that one of the reforms for Mesoamericans and Andeans is "tribal expansion". If the point of the game is to allow a skillful player to "change history", there should absolutely be better ways to play as Mesoamericans or others.

Therefore I think "metal weaponry", "horses", and "navy" would be excellent institutions to add. They gave Europeans a distinct upper hand and completely revolutionized warfare in the continent. Horses also made the Plains tribes and the Guaycuru really formidable. I say "metal weaponry" and not "metallurgy" because metallurgy was already widespread throughout western South America and in parts of Mexico, and I do think navy is important to add, at least for Mesoamerica. Native peoples did make long journeys, but it doesn't seem like they have had any naval warfare or large trade fleets or anything. Mainly their ships were small scale rafts made for trading. South America is a bit more unclear, because apparently one of the Sapa Incas made it to either Rapa Nui or the Galapagos, and descriptions attest to "ships in the harbor" of present day Lima before the pandemics took hold.

These institutions would be fully embraced by the old world, and would start spreading anytime an old world state moves personnel to a province in the Americas. They would probably have to spread especially slowly.

Not sure about "agriculture" as an institution. Perhaps instead of this, we can just represent a difference between sedentary and nomadic peoples, although I don't even know if that's necessary. "Writing" is not necessary, I feel. Writing doesn't really determine how well an empire will be able to adminster and exert influence. It's not a cultural universal. Societies that lacked institutional writing found alternatives.

We still do need a way for tribes to become states proper, I think. But it shouldn't be through westernizing.
 
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I have a lot of suggestions for American religions.

The first thing is that there should not be any relations modifiers (positive or negative) nor any conversion of provinces between ANY pagan religions, nor should having a different pagan religion present in your empire contribute to negative religious unity. Proselytization and the entire concept of a defined "religion" does not exist in these traditions and is completely misplaced. Yes, people had vague ideas about the neighboring peoples having barbaric ways or whatever, but that does not apply when the religions we are using cover such huge chunks of the map. People in every province of the Aztec Empire thought the next province over were barbarians. Maybe we could add in an option to unlock conversion with religious ideas or some sort of reform path, but it definitely should not be the default.

Okay, with that out of the way, I can get down to individual religions. First, I advocate for making a few entirely new religions: Shamanism (to replace all the animist provinces in the Americas, separating them from Asia), Sacra/Sacraism (to cover everything in the US east of the Rocky Mountains, sacra being a term for religious symbol basically), and Chiminigagua (to cover Ecuador, Colombia and Venezuela outside of the Llanos, potentially also Costa Rica and Panama - this would represent the civilizations of the Isthmo-Colombian area, especially the Muisca). If we ever add Taino nations (which we should, specifically the five chiefdoms of Hispaniola), we should also add Zemi/Zemism, or give them a slightly unique version of Chiminigagua.

Shamanism should get a straight forward system similar to Hinduism, where you pick a certain "spirit" that gives you distinct bonuses. In addition, Shamanist countries will get insane military bonuses for defensive battles in the terrain of their capitals. This is to buff the tribes like Chichimecs, Wayuu, Charrua, Guaranis etc. that were really a significant threat to early colonial societies. I mean, these people were just very in tune with their surrounding environment and were able to use it to their advantage to make it impenetrable to Europeans. If you don't believe me, look up the Chichimec War, or the Guaycuru, or the Guayuu. In addition, this mechanic will reflect nicely that native religions tend to focus attention on sacred places and sacred landscapes as living organisms, really the essence of animistic traditions.

Sacra will have a slider mechanic (really creative, yes I know) between communalism and centralism. Communalism increases slightly every year (due to the Green Corn ceremony) and raises autonomy. Centralism increases with prestige, power projection and low autonomy, and lowers autonomy, reduces coring cost, and increases the number of states available. This might sound a bit OP, and I mainly designed it with Mississippian polities in mind, as I hope that we could see them represented in the game eventually - they would start the game as small chiefdoms, but would have to weather first famines and then later pandemics introduced by Europeans, which would drastically throw the slider towards communalism. Once full communalism is reached, the chiefdom transforms into a tribe. The way to ensure survival of the Mississippian way of life is to build a strong empire. Another quirk is that advisors die when your ruler dies.

Chiminigagua (the name for the supreme god of the Muisca people) will also have a slider, that works a different way, between masculine and feminine (or Sue and Chia). Instead of trying to always concentrate on one side, you want to alternate for the best possible affect to be able to go through cycles of conquest and consolidation. You can perform ceremonies to go either way. Masculine helps you gain prestige and manpower, while feminine reduces coring cost, autonomy, and makes development cheaper. The most interesting part is that the Muisca Confederation was actually split into two rival states, Bacata and Hunza. Bacata was associated with the feminine moon cult and Hunza with the masculine sun cult. Thus, focusing attention on either side too long will increase the influence of that state in the confederation, and could either spell conflict or hegemony.

Zemi would be very similar to Chiminigagua with slightly different effects. Masculine reduces development cost and increases manpower and feminine has split effects: increased trade efficiency/range and naval movement speed during peace, and naval military bonuses during war. This would set any Taino state up for an interesting potential as a thalassocracy. Zemi religion also unlocks the ancestor worship ability, which gives a ruler a chance to increase their MP stats.

Then, for existing religions:
Please, please, please rename Nahuatl and Inti. Please. Nahuatl is a language, in fact it's the language of the Aztecs who make up a minority of the adherents of this religion. It was not even a sacred language or anything. It's the equivalent to calling Catholicism "Italiano". It's so misguided. As for Inti, Inti is one of the many gods of the Andean region. The Incas adopted him as their imperial god and tried to convert everyone else to him. So many other states had alternate gods. It's the equivalent to calling Hinduism "Vishnu".

The names I propose instead are Teotl and Huaca/Huacaism respectively, they are much more inclusive. Teotl is sort of the Mesoamerican concept of god, or rather the spiritual energy moving in all things. Notably Motecuzoma is said to have described the conquistadors as "teotl", by which some think he just meant mysterious or unexplainable but it was interpreted as god. Huacas are Andean spirits or idols, especially those that dwell in landscapes.

I also think that having separate Mayan and Nahuatl/Teotl as separate is not necessary, but I can kind of see it given the doom mechanic (which I actually think should stay). Personally I would just have doom apply to Central Mexican and Purepecha cultures, but it's not that important of a thing and I'm sure the developers like to have it separate for simplicity. But Huastecs should not be counted as Mayan.

For all three religions (Teotl, Mayan and Huacaism), there is something major in common. Choosing a deity to promote as the "imperial cult" and then converting other provinces to that cult, including provinces of any other religion, which retain their own religion, but also worship your deity. Ideally these could even keep track of deities in other religions (including Hinduism, potentially), so that it's easier to convert a province that already worships a sun god from another religion to your own sun god. You can then organize festivals for your deity at a cost of a month's tax income and the trade production of fine goods like silk, dyes, and precious metals, which then increases your "authority" based on how many provinces total in your country worship your deity (not a percentage like religious unity). Increasing your authority is how you access the benefits of your chosen deity. Huacaism has a couple of unique abilities accessed by spending authority, namely mit'a (free point of development in any province) and mitma (a very quick assimilation in culture and religion of any province of the same terrain as your capital). Still working on ideas for authority abilities for Mesoamericans to keep it balanced.

Huacaism also provides administrative benefits to provinces of the same terrain as your capital - easier conversion, lower autonomy, and reduced coring cost. However, for provinces of radically different terrain, the opposites are true. For instance, as the Incas, you would get major benefits to mountain provinces, but major minuses to, say, jungle, desert or glacial provinces. This would reflect both the tendancy of Andean peoples to focus on specific landscapes, and also the unique spread and administrative systems that their empires had.
 
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Would you be able to reference sources for this?

Semi-legendary, but oral tradition does usually have some merit. If the expedition did in fact take place, and the destination was inhabited, it must have been either Rapa Nui or some part of Central America that wouldn't have actually been an island, and if it was to Rapa Nui that's pretty impressive because it's quite far from any coast. It is known that there was at some point contact between Polynesians and South Americans.

For the ships in the harbor thing, unfortunately I can't remember where I read it. Sorry. But I suppose if anything it would be the same sort of rafts that were used for trade between Ecuador and Mexico.
 
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