New Player here coming from CK2; this is my biggest problem with this game

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Topsy Cret

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It seems to me that the biggest complaint about stability is how abstract it is, and that it doesn't really take into account things like overextension, legitimacy, religious turmoil, etc. However, I'm not sure that's the case; these factors are reflected in the stability through events. High overextension, low legitimacy and republican tradition, and religious unity all mean that events will come along and lower stability, and most of these mean that the actual cost for raising stability increases.

Yes, stability is a very arbitrary value, but claiming that it is not at all reflective of a country's situation is simply not true.
 

Beagá

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The problem with it is the degree of abstraction. The amount of effort to change the stability of a country like France or Commonwealth should be huge, specially to increase it. Meanwhile the number of events can make stability vary more than 3 points in a year sometimes. That´s ridiculous. I stopped playing this because I honeslty feel the degree of improvement over EU 3 is too small regarding society, politics and economy. Yes diplomacy and battles are better, but for me that is less than 40% of the gameplay.

You can make stability a process with events increasing or decreasing the progress to a higher level, and with enough bad events POOF then finally -1 Stab. The problem with Stability is the same with Base Tax - na old and abstract concept that was kept the way it is due to fear to innovate.
 

Asturiano

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It is a board game mechanic.

It works, and it works well.

You could probably think up a system to replace it, but the amount of rebalancing it would take is staggering since it's so intrinsically linked with the entire system. Maybe for Eu5, huh? But then you'd have to find an alternative system that balances just as well but provides a suitable level of immersion. Good luck with that. :happy:
EUIV is not a board game, it isn't even based on a board game - if one was inclined to be kind, one could say it was inspired by a board game.

Like Braveheart was inspired by actual events.

Setting this "board game" nonsense well aside (where it belongs) the stability "mechanic" doesn't just work well, it doesn't work at all. It has no deeper function than to serve itself. It isn't a mechanic of the game, it's so detached from the actual game that it seems more akin to randomized difficulty level. It's great that one doesn't have choose "easy, medium or hard" when the game just randomly changes those levels and calls it a day.

What does stability represent?
What is stability?
How can admin points affect stability?
Why is stability random, and how does that mesh with what it represents (whatever it is supposed to represent)?
Since stability is random, how can resources affect stability?
How come resources can only affect stability after a stability drop has occurred?
How come stability drops when Royal Marriages are dissolved and how come stability does not drop under the same circumstances if one is Papal controller?
How come stability drops when people see a comet for the 4000th time and how come it doesn't affect any other countries at the same time?
How come is it that maintaining stability in a huge blob of a country is exactly as difficult as in a one province country?
How come stability drops every time at the death of a monarch, no matter how legitimate the heir is viewed and no matter that a new monarch was a cause for celebration?+
How come stability drops when one decides not to give a minstrel money? Is he a super minstrel?
How come in order to answer any of the questions above one has to answer the first question to begin with, and in light of what affects stability in the first place, well good luck with answering that.

Now, I'm not even sure that the game would change fundamentally if stability was completely *removed* from the game. It certainly would not change the game balance, perhaps affect how people play the game, but not in a fundamental way.

Yes, when EU was a simpler game with a handful of developers, the stability system was a handy and perhaps necessary crutch to lean on, but it was never working in any sane sense of the word. It was just there, shunting a lot of strategic elements and for some inexplicable reason still persists in 2014 in EUIV.
 

Asturiano

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large and rich countries are generally more stable than large and poor because they hire advisors and get the points.
small and rich countries are the most stable, because they have little means of spending points and still hire advisors.
large and poor countries tend to be unstable because they have all sorst of things eating points and, thus, little to spend on stability
small and poor countries tend to still be stable, beacause of little need for points in other areas, they can afford to spend them on stability.

i think it works well.

No.

Large, small, rich or poor, it always costs the same to boost stability and large countries will be rich. There's no such thing as a large poor country in EUIV. In the end the only thing that indirectly increases stability is being rich, but then there's complete randomess and increased odds of a stability drop the higher the stability is, thus costing even more.

How come more stable countries are more likely to lose stability?
What are monarch points, exactly? Mmm?

This is just so much nonsense that exists only to serve itself, and yeah in its own little walled off universe, it makes sense. Just as an ace beats a king. It's a rule in a completely abstract card game, but this isn't that. These are completely abstract rules in a rather specific strategy game, where the exact amount of men, their composition, technology, leaders and landscape affect the results of a battle.
 

Asturiano

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He may be right on some points but it's still becoming old that those "people coming from CK2" only post here to say how better CK2 is and how EU4 really has a long road ahead before even being as good. Criticism is fine, for sure, but no one cares about which of CK2 or EU4 is better.
I didn't "come from CK2". I came from EUII, EUIII, EUIV and then CK2.
 

Slargos

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EUIV is not a board game, it isn't even based on a board game - if one was inclined to be kind, one could say it was inspired by a board game.

Europa Universalis is a board game.

Europa Universalis is also a computer strategy game based off said board game.

It includes many of the mechanics of aforementioned board game.

Some of these mechanics have become legacy mechanics.

In this sense and in some ways, Europa Universalis 4 still acts like a board game.
 

Topsy Cret

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Stability is... how stable your country is? Honestly, what is there not to understand when it comes to what stability is supposed to represent?

Admin points increase stability because improving the stability of a country means investing heavy amounts of bureaucratic resources in that cause. The time, money, and manpower used by the state to improve the harmony of the country is most easily represented by the admin points.

Why are there so many events affecting stability? Because during the era, unpredictable things occurred that were completely beyond the control, and often comprehension, of the ruling elite.
 

tapewormlondon

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Stability is... how stable your country is? Honestly, what is there not to understand when it comes to what stability is supposed to represent?

Admin points increase stability because improving the stability of a country means investing heavy amounts of bureaucratic resources in that cause. The time, money, and manpower used by the state to improve the harmony of the country is most easily represented by the admin points.

Why are there so many events affecting stability? Because during the era, unpredictable things occurred that were completely beyond the control, and often comprehension, of the ruling elite.

This?
 

bizarcasm

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But how is stability different than Revolt Risk, Low Legitimacy, Overextension, or War Exhaustion? What is it supposed to mean that's different? All of those are indicators and reflections of how stable your country is, yet "Stability" is something else. It gives financial benefits and lower revolt risk for having more of it, but why? It doesn't change or influence anything directly. It's a nebulous concept that has nothing to do with how your country is doing or how well you're running it. You can have your territory completely occupied by rebels and remain at +3 stability. You can have zero revolt risk in your entire country, be wealthy beyond measure, be winning a war, and be the most technologically advanced society on Earth, while having -3 stability. It means and reflects nothing practical, other than how much you were willing to spend on an arbitrary bonus.
 

Asturiano

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Europa Universalis is a board game.

Europa Universalis is also a computer strategy game based off said board game.

It includes many of the mechanics of aforementioned board game.

Some of these mechanics have become legacy mechanics.

In this sense and in some ways, Europa Universalis 4 still acts like a board game.

Yes, no, no, no, no.
 

Asturiano

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Stability is... how stable your country is? Honestly, what is there not to understand when it comes to what stability is supposed to represent?

Because a country with +3 stability can be exploding with revolts?

If it is so gosh darn simple to explain, why is it that every person who tries to explain it contradicts himself before even finishing his explanation?
 

Topsy Cret

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Because a country with +3 stability can be exploding with revolts?

If it is so gosh darn simple to explain, why is it that every person who tries to explain it contradicts himself before even finishing his explanation?

Stability does not equal perfect harmony. If you have maxed out stability, you will still get revolts from overextension, legitimacy, and religious turmoil, but comparatively less so. To put it into historical context, if a state is running an effective administration on all levels, a heretic won't be as anxious to catalyze a revolt.
 

tapewormlondon

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Because a country with +3 stability can be exploding with revolts?

If it is so gosh darn simple to explain, why is it that every person who tries to explain it contradicts himself before even finishing his explanation?

But he didnt say it completely eliminates all trace of discontent. He said it shows how stable your country is, by way of the amount of resources you are putting into it. I see no contradiction.

I think its perfectly simple what it represents, if it is implemented well in terms of events, balance, points is up for discussion, but lets not make a song and dance about what it supposed to do or represent.
 

neaiskink

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No.

Large, small, rich or poor, it always costs the same to boost stability and large countries will be rich. There's no such thing as a large poor country in EUIV. In the end the only thing that indirectly increases stability is being rich, but then there's complete randomess and increased odds of a stability drop the higher the stability is, thus costing even more.

How come more stable countries are more likely to lose stability?
What are monarch points, exactly? Mmm?

This is just so much nonsense that exists only to serve itself, and yeah in its own little walled off universe, it makes sense. Just as an ace beats a king. It's a rule in a completely abstract card game, but this isn't that. These are completely abstract rules in a rather specific strategy game, where the exact amount of men, their composition, technology, leaders and landscape affect the results of a battle.

1. All the types of countries are present. Lithuania is relatively poor, ottomans wealthy. Both large. Venice - small, but wealthy.
2. the amount of monarch effort to increase stability is the same for all countries. Makes sense. You issue a new codex, you institute a new reform. You crush noble privileges, etc.
However, please note that if your country is large, i.e. likelier to be less homogenic, it becomes more difficult to do so. If you have a large homogeneous country, there should be no difficulty to institute a certain reform countrywide.
3. Countries more stable than average likelier to lose stability. A design decision. Having a stable realm remain stable forever makes no sense too. I mean with changing times the countries must also change and adapt. A certain instability - disruption forcing to adapt - is therefore necessary and it is forced in by the game using events. It makes sense from gameplay perspective, but could be realised otherwise. For example, you could hav stagnation creeping in after a certain period of too stable a country (losing cash, increase revolt desire, etc). You could have the same amount of negative events for all countries, however, those with "stagnation" would be hit twice as hard ("Our society has long not seen this level of change. -3 stability")
4. Monarch points= effort x ability of a monarch (and state aparatus) to translate its will through the world
 

Novacat

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Lithuania poor? They have some of the highest basetax provinces in the game.
 

RogerWilco

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Stability does not equal perfect harmony. If you have maxed out stability, you will still get revolts from overextension, legitimacy, and religious turmoil, but comparatively less so. To put it into historical context, if a state is running an effective administration on all levels, a heretic won't be as anxious to catalyze a revolt.

I think the problem here is that you can directly influence Stability, while you overextension, legitimacy, war exhaustion, religious unity, inflation and such are the result of your actions, but not something you can influence directly (Well War Exhaustion and inflation somewhat, since patch ?).

I think it would be fine if you were buying "bureaucratic effort" or "logistics" or "administration" or something like that.

I think the problem is that the current Stability, tries to model 2 things: Stability as a result of actions and events (Monarch death, Comets), and "administrative effort" as something you influence more directly.
I think we should only keep the "administrative effort" as an active mechanic, and that events like Monarch Death and Comets should affect things like Legitimacy, Revolt Risk and such.
 

Topsy Cret

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I think the problem here is that you can directly influence Stability, while you overextension, legitimacy, war exhaustion, religious unity, inflation and such are the result of your actions, but not something you can influence directly (Well War Exhaustion and inflation somewhat, since patch ?).

I think it would be fine if you were buying "bureaucratic effort" or "logistics" or "administration" or something like that.

I think the problem is that the current Stability, tries to model 2 things: Stability as a result of actions and events (Monarch death, Comets), and "administrative effort" as something you influence more directly.
I think we should only keep the "administrative effort" as an active mechanic, and that events like Monarch Death and Comets should affect things like Legitimacy, Revolt Risk and such.

While I do see where you are coming from, I disagree. First of all, if you take a less active role in influencing stability, events will do the work for you and most of the time you'll be at 0. So yes, while stability is one of the few things you can directly change, leaving the game to its own devices results in a neutral stability level. Second, the idea is if you want to further consolidate the administration's power in the realm, then it has to go through the extra effort of dedicating those additional resources. So this whole thing about splitting up stability into preexisting systems and admin effort (as you put it) is already modeled.

To add a final note on the notion that events should affect preexisting systems instead of stability, it already (indirectly) does that. Lower stability means more revolt risk. The difference is that, as stated previously, the rulers can make a conscience decision to focus large amounts of resources (admin points) to negate the damages made by events, while if the system was made so that events only changed things like legitimacy, revolt risk, and so on, it would just raise a bunch of questions: should there be a timer on the increased revolt risk/religious stuff/income? Obviously the answer would have to be yes, in which case that's even more arbitrary than the current system.
 

Asturiano

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Stability does not equal perfect harmony. If you have maxed out stability, you will still get revolts from overextension, legitimacy, and religious turmoil, but comparatively less so. To put it into historical context, if a state is running an effective administration on all levels, a heretic won't be as anxious to catalyze a revolt.

How does a comet affect administration? How can a single minstrel?

I don't think they can, but they sure do affect the stability modifier, which indicates that it has literally nothing to do with administration.

But he didnt say it completely eliminates all trace of discontent. He said it shows how stable your country is, by way of the amount of resources you are putting into it. I see no contradiction.

I think its perfectly simple what it represents, if it is implemented well in terms of events, balance, points is up for discussion, but lets not make a song and dance about what it supposed to do or represent.

Well you sure seem to be sketchy on the details of what it actually is, I'd even welcome it in song and dance format. The closest thing I can divine from your nebulous wording is that the stability modifier represents.... stability. While such tautological arguments are worthless, they do perhaps demonstrate your inability to grasp my criticism. In other words, you can't put my criticism in your own words, because you don't understand it.

Very well, you claim it is "perfectly simple what it represents", so please - with or without singing and dancing - do tell.

1. All the types of countries are present. Lithuania is relatively poor, ottomans wealthy. Both large. Venice - small, but wealthy.
2. the amount of monarch effort to increase stability is the same for all countries. Makes sense. You issue a new codex, you institute a new reform. You crush noble privileges, etc.
However, please note that if your country is large, i.e. likelier to be less homogenic, it becomes more difficult to do so. If you have a large homogeneous country, there should be no difficulty to institute a certain reform countrywide.
3. Countries more stable than average likelier to lose stability. A design decision. Having a stable realm remain stable forever makes no sense too. I mean with changing times the countries must also change and adapt. A certain instability - disruption forcing to adapt - is therefore necessary and it is forced in by the game using events. It makes sense from gameplay perspective, but could be realised otherwise. For example, you could hav stagnation creeping in after a certain period of too stable a country (losing cash, increase revolt desire, etc). You could have the same amount of negative events for all countries, however, those with "stagnation" would be hit twice as hard ("Our society has long not seen this level of change. -3 stability")
4. Monarch points= effort x ability of a monarch (and state aparatus) to translate its will through the world

1. Small or large is irrelevant, the only thing that affects possible MPs is money, by enabling the country to get an adviser bringing up to 3 extra MPs. The size of the country is also irrelevant when it comes to the cost of "stability", it's always the same price, no matter the size of the country.

2. That sentence made no sense, that you made there: that "the amount of monarch effort to increase stability is the same for all countries" is something that makes sense. Despite you claiming the contrary. Why would it be just as easy to "boost" "stability" in a large country as a small one? At least in EUIV all large countries are extremely diverse, can span continents, not to mention languages, cultures and religions. Note that none of the aforementioned attributes affects the stability cost one iota. What large countries are you thinking of that are homogenous? Just out of curiosity, because I can't think of a single one. That's academic either way, since the "stability" system in EUIV makes no distinction between a homogenous country and a very diverse country.

3. Yes, a design decision, I know - but what it represents, nobody knows. Nothing, I suspect, it's just there because it fits the game in a general sense. It could be called "bonus points" and it wouldn't gain or lose anything. It would just be an arbitrary game mechanic, that makes no sense, it's just there. Like it or not. I don't.

I'd prefer to play a strategic game that doesn't arbitrarily make me waste resources to maintain a bonus score. That's stupid.

4. Indeed, but why is it bound to the person of the particular monarch? The monarch himself (or herself) doesn't go around personally doing everything in person. There is an entire state involving the monarch, a bureaucracy, tradition, infrastructure, that controls everything in how a monarch can translate his or her will through the world and that does not change monarch to monarch.

And how exactly does it affect the monarchs ability to induce a culture shift in a province that people have discovered a new type of ship or a more effective way of trading? Not a lick of sense. But hey, the MP system is a whole other can of worms. But a slightly more defensible one than the "stability" nonsense.

**

Note to whomever was whining about it, I forget who: the MPs were not a part of the board game. No more than the trade system and pretty much everything. Almost nothing excepting for the name of this computer game and perhaps some very general features are common with the very simple board game and this hugely complex computer game. To defend the existence of "stability points" in the computer game Europe Universalis IV (four!) because something similar-ish existed in a long forgotten board game is too much.
 
Last edited:

Comes Imperii

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Europa Universalis is a board game.

Europa Universalis is also a computer strategy game based off said board game.

It includes many of the mechanics of aforementioned board game.

Some of these mechanics have become legacy mechanics.

In this sense and in some ways, Europa Universalis 4 still acts like a board game.
Wow, I didn't know it was originally a board game. Yet keeping board game mechanics in a computer game which, by its nature, could allow to dispense with the hideous abstractions which limit board games seems a bit odd to me. But I am not going to keep this up further and I find the current system to be quite enjoyable after all.