New Order IV

[admiral drake]

I'd like to point out that I fought Brandenburg twice last session, the latter time while he was at war with Denmark.



Oh don't worry, Corsica will be French soon enough.

you fought bb yet always come to his rescue when he does some offensive war he can't handle atleast thats what it seems to me

 

[Yordlama]

you fought bb yet always come to his rescue when he does some offensive war he can't handle atleast thats what it seems to me

I'm sure there's an ulterior motive for it

 

[admiral drake]

I'm sure there's an ulterior motive for it

would be nice if you guys could enlighten me then cause its getting annoyng to see defenders picked on by others if they win vs bb in defencive wars

 

[Fredrik82]

I still dont rally like the idea that you play poland fixated on a leader that comes in 1740s. Same way as i dont like when players gang france in late 1700s just to weaken him before nappy. Its a little artificial. Best to try and play in present as much as possible.

Exactly, i play to have fun every sessions. And that means lots of wars if i can.

The thing I don't understand is, no matter how stupid or intolerant Brandenburg acts, he's still got loyal lackeys in Amsterdam, Vienna, Stockholm and Istanbul.

It's called diplomacy Bocaj, medium powers like Brandenburg do need lots of that. And i hardly call my actions to be "stupid or "intolerant", i fought Poland in several wars in a fair fight. (Yes i lost all of them ) But in this case i'm stubborn, i want to achive my goals, and that was to fight Poland over Prussia and other cores. So i dont agree with you that those actions are stupid, or gamey if that is what you really mean. I consider that EU2, fighting wars

And let's face it, it's only due to his greed and aggressiveness that he is the size that he is..

So, if i understand you correctly. Just because i fight lots of wars means that im just greedy? I'd say that it is more thanks to Tonios skill that has put me in this size today, he almost annexed me in the end but bailed out

You and i have different way of playing EU2 Boc, you like peaceful teching and trading while i prefer the war period. Thus we play differently but you shouldnt accuse someone else for being "greedy" or "intolerant" or whatever just because they dont play the same way you do

He lost Silesia and Kustrin in an offensive war. He broke a NAP which then saw him lose Vorpommern. The only reason he doesn't have Mecklemburg now is because he couldn't deal with that Hinterpommern shouldn't be his, I had offered him that a while back..

I lost Kustrin in an offensive war, yes. But i lost silesia and vor pommern in a defensive war, if that is importent to categorize things :wacko:

Also, i dont make "for the rest of the game" agreements, i dont belive in such things. Thats the reason why i didnt accept your deal.

I don't know about everyone else, but as long as Brandenburg's followers do not waver in their support for him, Brandenburg will not negotiate for anything. And thus, neither will I.

I think the reason why so many support Brandenburg is for trying to restrain Poland and Denmark. They are the superpowers in this region, while Brandenburg is trying to "expand" in this regions because of our future depends on it.
Also, Brandenburg is a key nation in this game, they're the one who prohibit Denmark from expanding in Germany, and they're the last nation that officially consider Poland as an enemy. And obviously, now the last one that can consider to fight them since Russia choosed to be his lap-dog

I agree with both Tonio and Bocaj that Fred is too damn stubborn. In fact, Fred should praise himself lucky that he's still alive in spite of his extreme stubborness and reluctance to do any proper diplomacy.

Yep, i have been stubborn when i needed to be so. And that is one of the reasons why Brandenburg still exist today.
But i think my stubborness in this game has been legitimate, when i refused the thought of being "annexed", when i refused to sign endless offers of "the rest of the game" agreements. When i have been stubborn in belife that Prussia once will be mine, through war or deal. For being stubborn to retake land that Denmark took in a very low way, so that they later call us "greedy" or "intolerant".
Sometimes you need to be stubborn, but not in the gamey way nor ego way.
But for your nations sake...

I actually doubt brand could beat poland 1v1 even with fredrik. Especially if poland had decent leader. He certainly wouldnt crush poland. Maybe get 1 or 2 provs but as soon as he died poland would get them back.

It'll be a challange indeed, but i'm looking forward to it

Besides, we should stop talking about him. He hasnt been born yet. Lets talk about evil villars instead

And with my luck, he will die a random death in the second battle. So Tonios worries from early 1500s will then be in vain :rofl:

 

[unmerged(7276)]

no offense but nobody got right on anything denmark owned north german provs for centurys by now why would you think people living under peaceful rich/prosperous rule for 200years or so prefer to suddently be invaded and "liberated" by a warmonger king ? serious also culture means crap if you mean cause he got german he got right to mecklemburg then he has right to vienna to wich is complete bs

and bocaj is right you guys are bb lackeys .
also to be honost i find it pretty pathetic how fred plays bb and gets away with it thanks to austria/france/ottos but thats justmy opinion

Well i dont really care if the people of north germany do enjoy the rule of denmark. It is not the will of the emperor. Denmark has been cold to austria. They havnt even seen fit to contact us once. I see an arogant nation when i look at denmark. In fact i think they have spoke against us in wars ive fought wars. Prefering the side we fight every time. Brand and i have had our disagreements but he is still an elector and so has our support. Calling us a lackey is wrong of course but calling france one is just plain stupid. Russians are clearly uneducted peasants and im glad that the good polish king keeps them in their place.

 

[Yordlama]

I'm sure there's an ulterior motive for it

Well i think it's pretty obvious that both the Ottomans and France probably want BB around to bother Austria. I can't see that Austria has been helping BB for any tactical reasons though. In the same way though, Nl, Sweden and probably myself percieve Denmark as a threat to us and are happy to let BB continue.

 

[Fredrik82]

no offense but nobody got right on anything denmark owned north german provs for centurys by now why would you think people living under peaceful rich/prosperous rule for 200years or so prefer to suddently be invaded and "liberated" by a warmonger king ? serious also culture means crap if you mean cause he got german he got right to mecklemburg then he has right to vienna to wich is complete bs

Yep, pretty much BS.
But that is not why i wanted mecklenburg back, Denmark took it in a very low way and i surely did consider it as mine.
the other reason was that i really needed a port.

But i dont really understand your post Drake, you mean that just because a nation control a certain proince no-one else should be able to claim it from them then?

and bocaj is right you guys are bb lackeys .
also to be honost i find it pretty pathetic how fred plays bb and gets away with it thanks to austria/france/ottos but thats justmy opinion

gets away with what? Being annexed or?
Although, i consider it more pathetic that you collaborate with Denmark - Poland that atleast the latter one is the reason for Russian decline.
But it is surely a more "safe" way of playing that way, but still rather pathetic.
Mostly because you turn your back on those who is the only one that can assist Russia to regain there lost land. And you pretty much stabb Brandenburg in the back with your new pro Poland policy, after all those wars vs Poland, Brandenburg did suffer alot for Russias sake.

 

[Hive]

you fought bb yet always come to his rescue when he does some offensive war he can't handle atleast thats what it seems to me

Eh... I have fought Brandenburg twice now, and rescued them (or at least tried to) once - and only because I knew Tonio's goal was to annex them. Had Tonio been reasonable and only demanded a few provs, France would have stayed on the sideline.

But just as you say that the same nations over and over again protect Brandenburg no matter what - isn't it equally weird that a nation like Spain helps Brandenburg's *enemy* every time no matter what? But of course, why complain about that?

 

[admiral drake]

Yep, pretty much BS.
But that is not why i wanted mecklenburg back, Denmark took it in a very low way and i surely did consider it as mine.
the other reason was that i really needed a port.

But i dont really understand your post Drake, you mean that just because a nation control a certain proince no-one else should be able to claim it from them then?


gets away with what? Being annexed or?
Although, i consider it more pathetic that you collaborate with Denmark - Poland that atleast the latter one is the reason for Russian decline.
But it is surely a more "safe" way of playing that way, but still rather pathetic.
Mostly because you turn your back on those who is the only one that can assist Russia to regain there lost land. And you pretty much stabb Brandenburg in the back with your new pro Poland policy, after all those wars vs Poland, Brandenburg did suffer alot for Russias sake.

i didn't say you can't claim it but thinking its naturaly belongs to you cause 1 you get cores on it in future or is youre culture is bs in my opinion

russia allyng denmark is only natural after major aid in buildng all those weapons

vs poland previous russias joined you and look what it brought them , my strategy surely has better results so far then previous players and thats what i look at , mayby you consider it a cowardly way to not gang poland for a change but then again we always had different views on situations youre way to achieve things is war , backstab and counting on others to save youre ass when things go bad

edit : and i know i took mek remember but wasn't really low , you refused to peace poland causing that prov to revolt thats bb fault not mine

 

[admiral drake]

Eh... I have fought Brandenburg twice now, and rescued them (or at least tried to) once - and only because I knew Tonio's goal was to annex them. Had Tonio been reasonable and only demanded a few provs, France would have stayed on the sideline.

But just as you say that the same nations over and over again protect Brandenburg no matter what - isn't it equally weird that a nation like Spain helps Brandenburg's *enemy* every time no matter what? But of course, why complain about that?

if you haven't noticed denmark was actually in alliance of spain last session pretty good reason to defend a ally i think

 

[Hive]

if you haven't noticed denmark was actually in alliance of spain last session pretty good reason to defend a ally i think

That doesn't explain why they helped Poland in previous wars, or why they like Poland are obsessed with having Brandenburg annexed...

So you are saying that you are only allowed to help another nation if you are code allies?

 

[admiral drake]

That doesn't explain why they helped Poland in previous wars, or why they like Poland are obsessed with having Brandenburg annexed...

So you are saying that you are only allowed to help another nation if you are code allies?

no i sayd there is a reason spain helped denmark , about them helping poland i dunno why spain would do that and i didn't notice them doing that last time

 

[Fredrik82]

i didn't say you can't claim it but thinking its naturaly belongs to you cause 1 you get cores on it in future or is youre culture is bs in my opinion

I agree.

vs poland previous russias joined you and look what it brought them , my strategy surely has better results so far then previous players and thats what i look at , mayby you consider it a cowardly way to not gang poland for a change but then again we always had different views on situations youre way to achieve things is war , backstab and counting on others to save youre ass when things go bad

I dont consider myself to be a backstabber, it's very seldom i do such things.
And it is not really like me to "count on others", i play my own race.
But as Brandenburg it is pretty importent to run a policy were you have lots of support from other nations, or else you're pretty fucked.
I think this game has proven that.

And i'm defenetly not a gang banger either, those few times i've done it (yes, mostly vs Tonio )it is because they deserve it, were the enemy nation is too powerful for ya in a 1vs1. But that doesnt need to be a gang bang anyway. Tonio tends to build very powerful nations, and that is such nations that sooner or later get ganged.

I'm not sure why you accuse me of things like this. i'm pretty sure that if you ask players i play with alot they will confirm what i said.
I very much prefer 1vs1 wars, and i defenetly prefer wars to be challanging. I dont have the *must win* attitude when i play, as many have, too many if you ask me.

I will not continue this discussion by accusing you for lots of stuff, because everyone have a different playstile which should be respected.
As no playstile is the "right" one.

 

[unmerged(18425)]

Spain helped Poland back then simply because if Poland concentrated on Brandenburg, she would leave Austria alone. Brandenburg is likely to become a French friend against Austria, so I did not want to help them.

However, after Austria attacked me, I befriended again with Brandenburg and even send them a gift or two. After that they attacked my ally without any warning, so of course I honoured the alliance call.
And since they now conquered two provinces from Spain, they're now an enemy of Spain again.

So, again Spain will help enemies of Brandenburg.

 

[unmerged(10894)]

Well i dont really care if the people of north germany do enjoy the rule of denmark. It is not the will of the emperor. Denmark has been cold to austria. They havnt even seen fit to contact us once. I see an arogant nation when i look at denmark. In fact i think they have spoke against us in wars ive fought wars. Prefering the side we fight every time. Brand and i have had our disagreements but he is still an elector and so has our support. Calling us a lackey is wrong of course but calling france one is just plain stupid. Russians are clearly uneducted peasants and im glad that the good polish king keeps them in their place.

I don't see Austria rushing to do much of any diplomacy with Denmark either.

 

[unmerged(10894)]

Exactly, i play to have fun every sessions. And that means lots of wars if i can.

Not saying that that's wrong. Playing EU2 is to have fun after all.

It's called diplomacy Bocaj, medium powers like Brandenburg do need lots of that. And i hardly call my actions to be "stupid or "intolerant", i fought Poland in several wars in a fair fight. (Yes i lost all of them ) But in this case i'm stubborn, i want to achive my goals, and that was to fight Poland over Prussia and other cores. So i dont agree with you that those actions are stupid, or gamey if that is what you really mean. I consider that EU2, fighting wars

Heh diplomacy, what a novel thought. I haven't seen much of that against Poland, or me after the first session. Your unwillingness to compromise at all has not been well received in Copenhagen, dating back before drake's subbing session. Anyone will tell you I was very friendly to Brandenburg in the first century, I did not want things to come to this. If you were strapped for cash, I would sacrifice my ambitions to help you. And yet the only thing I asked for you slammed in my face. Some friendship huh.

So, if i understand you correctly. Just because i fight lots of wars means that im just greedy? I'd say that it is more thanks to Tonios skill that has put me in this size today, he almost annexed me in the end but bailed out

I would say that it was more out of wars that you have been greedy. In war stubborn, that's what's kept you alive. Out of war, greedy, and that's why we have gotten to this stage.

Also, i dont make "for the rest of the game" agreements, i dont belive in such things. Thats the reason why i didnt accept your deal.

I tend to believe differently. You were quite happy to make that deal at the start of the game. In ToT3, the last game we played together, you were quite disappointed that the deal we made was not "for the rest of the game" as you assumed it would be. Two deals in two games like that tends to make me believe that your words and your actions aren't aligning with each other.

 

[unmerged(10894)]

Well i think it's pretty obvious that both the Ottomans and France probably want BB around to bother Austria. I can't see that Austria has been helping BB for any tactical reasons though. In the same way though, Nl, Sweden and probably myself percieve Denmark as a threat to us and are happy to let BB continue.

Oh, you poor souls. A Denmark that actually can play in the colonial scene, spare me!

 

[Tonioz]

So Denmark alone is the big threat for 4 countries. I didn`t notice you are so much powerful, Bocaj

Talking about diplomacy. When i joined the game, i saw the alliance Denmark-Brandenburg, and Bocaj asked me to give him Kurland and Livland. I give them up for maps, which i would get sooner or later. Denmark didn`t wish at all to fight with Brandenburg, but promised further neutrality.

After the time passed, we clearly see that actions of Brandenburg and Poland made Denmark to change the opinion. Doubt it can be called as good diplomacy of Brandenburg, if he could deal that for one province only.

But Brandenburg are indeed nothing to fear, if Vienna supported him even after Brandenburg refuced claims on Wurzburg by quite same way.

 

[Hive]

Can't we just agree that Fred is stubborn, slightly arrogant and refuse to do some proper diplomacy - and then get on with the game?

 

[Fredrik82]

Heh diplomacy, what a novel thought. I haven't seen much of that against Poland, or me after the first session. Your unwillingness to compromise at all has not been well received in Copenhagen, dating back before drake's subbing session. Anyone will tell you I was very friendly to Brandenburg in the first century, I did not want things to come to this. If you were strapped for cash, I would sacrifice my ambitions to help you. And yet the only thing I asked for you slammed in my face. Some friendship huh.

The relations with Denmark was excellent till that day Denmark started to collaborate with Poland, while Brandenburg was about to be annexed Denmark vassalized mecklenburg and allied them the moment they revolted from Brandenburg. Later Denmark "bought" Hannover and hinterpommern from Poland. Is this what you call friendship?
And then when i wanted mecklenburg back you demanded me to sign stupid agreements, thus you not only broke our agreement in Germany but you forced me to sign another one.
If Denmark wanted friendship with Brandenburg they would have given back mecklenburg right away.
Instead they funded the Polish side against Brandenburg. And then you expect me to be "friendly" towards Denmark Bocaj?
Hardly, the moment the "protection pact" between Poland-Denmark expired i attacked Denmark. For the reason to take back Mecklenburg.

I would say that it was more out of wars that you have been greedy. In war stubborn, that's what's kept you alive. Out of war, greedy, and that's why we have gotten to this stage.

If i have been "greedy" in this game i must have failed to be so completely :rofl:

I tend to believe differently. You were quite happy to make that deal at the start of the game. In ToT3, the last game we played together, you were quite disappointed that the deal we made was not "for the rest of the game" as you assumed it would be. Two deals in two games like that tends to make me believe that your words and your actions aren't aligning with each other.

I have no memory of agreeing to such things, generally i dont. Because i dont belive in them. And if you refer to our protection pact in ToT it was signed mostly because you were going to be my vassal. Then that agreement is valid as long as you remained my vassal iirc. Things went out differently.

Regarding our agreement in this game, the german agreement. It was signed in order to create a boarder that we both agreed to in Germany.
And i think i made it pretty clear that if Denmark would break it whatsover, and expand further into Germany then Brandenburg will take control of the rest of the Danish provinces in Germany. That was my view on it.