New Naval Mod available

[unmerged(21239)]

My initial objective for this mod was to adjust AA capability. Originally, CL's were the answer to all your AA needs. Which unfortunately reduced the real life roles of BB's and CA's in providing AA protection to fleets. But as I dug into the numbers, I found a number of odd values in many of the ship characteristics. The more I looked, the more I felt a need to make changes to produce something which would more closer reflect the actual roles of the different classes of surface ships. I also wanted to have real life reasons to build a balanced fleet.

So here is a mod for naval ships. I would certainly appreciate any feedback and rational which would produce a more realistic depiction of the ship classes.

List of changes:

1. Adjusted AirAttack values. In the original, most AA capability was concentrated in the CL. In reality, CL's,. outside of specialty CLAA ships, did not have extraordinary AA capability. BB's and CA's had extensive AA capability as the war progressed. I took the sum of the AA capability between the DD, CL, CA and BB classes and redistributed the sum to give more AA capability to BB's and CA's. I gave advanced BC's values slightly less than BB's.

Any AirAttack values of one were increased to two. Most anti-air combat will have some over-stacking penalties. Any penalty will cause one value AA to decrease to zero. They will not participate in anti-aircraft. To prevent this problem, I increase one values to two.

I increased carrier AirAttack values by adding in the AirAttack values of their CAG's. The objective is to increase the damage sustained by land based bombers when attacking a fleet protected by fighters. There is a slight to medium impact on the damage suffered by NavBombers and other land based bombers in particular if the land bombers lack fighter protection. Carrier to carrier battles still produce decisive results in my tests.

2. Adjusted AirDefense values. Air defense values determine whether a ship is more likely to be hit and damaged by air attack. Originally, DD's and CL's had higher air defense values than larger ships up through the Basic models. I reduced the early model DD/CL's air defense values and bumped up the early model CA and BB's. I did not touch the CV's.

3. Adjusted SeaDefense values. Seadefense values determine the likelihood of being hit and damaged in surface combat. In the original files, late model DD's are shown as harder to sink than improved light cruisers. This may be a reflection of the DD representing a number of ships. But regardless, I slightly reduced the sea defense value of later model DD's. I slightly reduced the seadefense values of mid model CL's. I slightly increased the seadefense values of late model CA's. The BB's/BC's and CV's looked great.

4. Adjusted SeaAttack values. SeaAttack values looked pretty good for the most part. I felt the CL's were a bit overrated in the early models vs the CA's. So slightly adjusted downward the CL' values. They still have the range and armament to hit DD's hard.

5. Adjusted SubAttack values. CL's did not have significant anti-sub capability. In some navies, they did serve as DD flotilla leaders. So I did not remove the capability entirely but reduced the mid-late model anti-sub capabilities substantially. DD's will be necessary if you want real anti-sub capabilities. I also completely removed anti-sub capability from CA's, BB's and BC's. They didn't have any unless you count their float planes.

6. Adjusted Shore Bombardment values. In the original, DD's and CL's have substantial shore bombardment capabilities. A late model DD has the same shore bombardment capability as a mid and late model CA. Later model CL's actually have greater shore bombardment values than CA's and most BB's. I reduced the bombardment values of DD's and CL's. I am working under the assumption that low weight shells are less capable against prepared fortifications than the heavier weight armaments of CA's and BB's.

7. Final note. In the mod, I include a spreadsheet containing the new values for each class. In parentheses, I include the original values. You can very quickly see what changes I have made.

8. To install. Go to DB/Units folder. Make a backup copy of the entire folder. Then unzip/extract the mod file within the DB/Units/Division folder. Answer "yes" when asked to overwrite existing files. The mod will overwrite the DD, CL, CA, BB, BC and carrier files. It will also place a spreadsheet into the folder containing the new ship values with the old values in parenthesis if you are curious as to the exact changes made.

Send me a email to TalleyKen@bellsouth.net if you would like to try this mod. I would appreciate any feedback.

Hope you enjoy.

 

[DukeWilleo1630]

Very cool You seem to have confronted many of the problems that have been arising with naval combat. Primarily the naval bomber thing.

 

[unmerged(21239)]

Thanks Duke.

Lt Hilsdorf has kindly offered to host the Naval Mod at his site. His site is located here: http://www.geocities.com/lthilsdorf/hoi2_battlescenarios.html.

I have asked Steel if he would permanently make the mod available somewhere on the Paradox site. Hopefully that can be done.

I added one additional feature to the mod this afternoon. I wanted to reflect the increased lethality of destroyers due to their use of torpedos in night battle. So I reduced the night attack penalty of destroyers from -50 to 0 percent. Currently all naval vessels except subs have a -50 percent penalty in night combat. Subs have a +15 percent bonus in night combat. (Use subs in night combat only). Now destroyers will be doubly dangerous due to their torpedos in the short ranged combat of night battle. Players will also have another reason to include destroyers in their fleets beyond anti-sub capability.

 

[Plutarch]

That's a really impressive set of changes. I know HOI2 need some tuning and I'm really glad to see this type of research being done. The real question I would pose is this: Do these changes make more historical results? Does the Grand Fleet smash the Kriegsmarine now? Do U-boats have a harder time in the North Atlantic?

Kudos for putting in the time and effort for these changes. Perhaps they will be the seed for greater things.

 

[unmerged(21239)]

Hi Plutarch,

All my testing has been in the Pacific. I have played portions of Japanese and US campaigns using the changes. I am currently doing another run through using the early war Southern Conquests scenario.

The major difference in the campaigns is more need to build balanced fleets. BB's now are needed for their AA and shore bombardment capabilities. DD's are needed for their night attack and anti-sub capability. CA's have AA, shore bombardment strengths and can take out the CL's/DD's. I buy more balanced fleets. The only ship hurt by the mod is the CL. It loses that massive AA and shore bombardment capability as well as a lot of its anti-sub capability. But I think that is realistic. Later model CL's become more capable and approach the usefulness of CA's.

One area which I haven't touched are SS's. I really haven't looked at them closely because I am playing in the Pacific. What I have noticed is they are absolutely deadly at night with their +15 percent modifier. Although DD's are now much more effective at night as well with their 0 percent modifier. That may reduce the effectiveness of Subs attacking DD screened fleets at night.

Overall, I think the most significant change in the mod is the more realistic balancing of AA capability across the fleet. In the original, AA was concentrated in the CL's. A fleet lacking CL's is at extreme risk from air attack. That was very unrealistic. With the mod, all fleets have AA capability and mid/late model BB's are monsters against any aircraft attack.

The second most significant change was adding in the CAG airattack values to the carrier airattack values. Carriers had fighter defense. Those fighter defenses will inflict damage against unescorted land bombers. That is a big change. Unescorted navbombers are very vulnerable against fighters.

The third big change is the doubling of destroyer attack capability at night. Destroyers were very dangerous at night with the short ranges and their torpedos. This will also make them more effective against subs at night.

The HOI system with night battles is kind of unusual. As it is now, attack values are halved. Defense values remain the same. The result is that battles are less deadly at night vs the same range during the day. Which is probably true but the short ranges of night battles rarely happened during the day. And some of the most devastating surface battles occured at night. I have been pondering whether some changes might be appropriate for night battles.

Perhaps as more people try this naval mod, I will get feedback suggestive of additional tweaks that may be necessary to achieve the best results.

 

[unmerged(12747)]

Hi Plutarch,

All my testing has been in the Pacific. I have played portions of Japanese and US campaigns using the changes. I am currently doing another run through using the early war Southern Conquests scenario.

The major difference in the campaigns is more need to build balanced fleets. BB's now are needed for their AA and shore bombardment capabilities. DD's are needed for their night attack and anti-sub capability. CA's have AA, shore bombardment strengths and can take out the CL's/DD's. I buy more balanced fleets. The only ship hurt by the mod is the CL. It loses that massive AA and shore bombardment capability as well as a lot of its anti-sub capability. But I think that is realistic. Later model CL's become more capable and approach the usefulness of CA's.

One area which I haven't touched are SS's. I really haven't looked at them closely because I am playing in the Pacific. What I have noticed is they are absolutely deadly at night with their +15 percent modifier. Although DD's are now much more effective at night as well with their 0 percent modifier. That may reduce the effectiveness of Subs attacking DD screened fleets at night.

Overall, I think the most significant change in the mod is the more realistic balancing of AA capability across the fleet. In the original, AA was concentrated in the CL's. A fleet lacking CL's is at extreme risk from air attack. That was very unrealistic. With the mod, all fleets have AA capability and mid/late model BB's are monsters against any aircraft attack.

The second most significant change was adding in the CAG airattack values to the carrier airattack values. Carriers had fighter defense. Those fighter defenses will inflict damage against unescorted land bombers. That is a big change. Unescorted navbombers are very vulnerable against fighters.

The third big change is the doubling of destroyer attack capability at night. Destroyers were very dangerous at night with the short ranges and their torpedos. This will also make them more effective against subs at night.

The HOI system with night battles is kind of unusual. As it is now, attack values are halved. Defense values remain the same. The result is that battles are less deadly at night vs the same range during the day. Which is probably true but the short ranges of night battles rarely happened during the day. And some of the most devastating surface battles occured at night. I have been pondering whether some changes might be appropriate for night battles.

Perhaps as more people try this naval mod, I will get feedback suggestive of additional tweaks that may be necessary to achieve the best results.

Mod sounds good! I will have to give it a try. One thing, I think you should increase the cost of CVs. I think they are too cheap.