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Norrefeldt

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zdlugasz said:
If you want to remove unnecessary province you could consider removal of Oesel. Just because Danmark hold it for 85 years does not mean it must be represented in game. AFAIK there is nothing special anout Isle, no extra riches, etc.
That can be concidered for version 2, and there are probably several other provinces like that.
 

zdlugasz

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zdlugasz said:
Borders are not bogus at all, might be incorrect but it is different matter. As I have already written: Lithuania had clear administrative division and Polotsk and Minsk voivodships had clear borders.

And that administrative division was present already in XVIth century.
You want to say that Minsk voivodship had nearly a common border with Livonia or what exactly? Just compare this map (which is the same like the very first sketch MKJ made long time ago) with the historical voivodships in Lithuania. It is not nearly look like this.
 

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zdlugasz said:
1) I do not see whole Belarus/Minsk on this AGCEEP map but it does not have border with any Livonian Province on this map.
2) I do not have MKJ map as well, but I have map with real borders so I do not care what was MKJ drawing

Minks voivodship had borders with voivodships: wilenskie (form vilinius -Lihuania), polockie (Polotsk), witebskie (Vitebsk), mscislawskie (Mstislav), smolenskie (Smolensk), czernichowskie (Chernigov), kijowskie (Kiev), brzesko-litewskie (Brest and Pinsk) and nowogrodzkie (Nowogrodek). It is "higher" than "wider" on map.
On map 1:5000000 there is less than 2 cm between northern tip of Minsk Voivodship and border with Livonia.
Since when did Minsk voivodship border Smolensk voivodship? And this "less than 2 cm" is about 250 killometers. There is also half of the Polotsk voivodship in this "Belarus" (with the city itself) and Vitebsk is made part of it... :wacko:
 

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zdlugasz said:
Ehh...
1) I went to measure it exactly and it is 1.6cm (LOS).
it is defiantly much longer in reality than it looks on AGCEEP map. :p It supposed to look like this (I hope you know this map; and no, it is not MyMAP). ;)
http://www.geocities.com/kirylaf/maps/map7.txt

zdlugasz said:
2) hehe, it did border! Smolensk Voivodship was one bulb connected by narrow pass to a smaller bulb in south (this smaller bulb had cities like: Popowa Góra, Poczed, Suraź, Trubczewsk, Starodub) and this smaller bulb (below Mstislav voivodship) had border with Minsk voivodship (cities in southern part of Minsk voivodship were: e.g. Homel, Rzeczyca, Czeczersk)
Where? :confused: It all the voivodship of Czernigov.
http://www.geocities.com/kirylaf/maps/map2.txt
 

zdlugasz

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This should probably appear in Germany new map thread but I havent seen new map posted there.

As far as I can see there is province between Vorpommern and Hinterpommern (and if it looks like in MyMap it is called Pomerania).

What does it represent?

Duchy of Pomerania (sometimes just duchy of Wolgast) was divided many times, but most significant duches located on vanilla Hinter and vorpommern provinces were:
- Pomerania-Wolgast (Vorpomern on vanilla map)
- Pomerania-Stettin (western half of Hinterpommern on vanilla map with city Stettin)
- Duchy of Slupsk/Stolp (eastern half of Hinterpommern)

smaller independent entities: duches (using German names): of Barth, of Demmin and Principality of Rugia/Rügen in Vorpommern, duchy of Ruegenwalde, bishopric of Kammin and duchy of Stargard in Hinterpommern

The most logical (IMHO) division (if we have to have 3 provices) would be to divide into 3 more or less equal parts: Wolgast, Stettin and Slupsk/Stolp+bishopric.

However, it seems that this third province was extracted rather from smaller Vorpommern than larger Hinterpmmern and after seeing Riga nad Kiev this probably means that so-called Pomerania represents single city Stettin.

Am I right/wrong?

map of Duchy of pomerania

dukes of pomerania on wiki page
 

zdlugasz

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Reworked provinces on east-southern bank of Baltic.
Right now Riga is back since IIRC map will be changed later.

Added national and owned provinces for 1419, full inc files later.

see here

And since I am not an expert on Scandinavia proper I will not do it, unless someone (Norrefeldt?) will tell me who should own which province and what to do with tax and manpower of removed provinces in PTI.
 

Norrefeldt

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Continuation of post by zdlugasz, with full country conversion list. The conditions for this have been changed somewhat. All old provinces must convert to zero (=PTI) or more new ones. Never can a combination of old ones convert to one or more new ones.
This is since it will only be used for knownprovinces conversion or 300+ scenario files. It doesn't have to be exact, but simple. I'll change all map posts to reflect this.
Code:
Old-New

251-585 #Skåne ######Sweden
251-586 
252-584 #Småland
253-582 #Västergötland
253-583 
254-580 #Svealand
254-581 
257-579 #Bergslagen
381-574 #Jämtland
1469-573 #Gästrikland
341-572 #Västerbotten
260- 572 #Lappland

255-578 #Østlandet ######Norway
256-577 #Bergenshus
258-576 #Trøndelag
259-575 #Narvik
261-0 #Finnmark

342-570 #Finland ######Finland
263-571 #Österbotten
264-569 #Tavastland
265-568 #Nyland
266-564 #Kexholm
266-565
273-567 #Savolaks

275-563 #Ingermanland ######Baltic states
276-558 #Estland
276-559 
282-553 #Livland
282-554 
282-555 
283-551  #Kurland
283-552
289-550 #Memel
290-535 #Prussia
290-536 
290-542
 
Last edited:

zdlugasz

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@Norrefeldt:

What are EXACTLY new guidelines ans what is our target for the conversion. Mostly for the known provinces purpose?
I got new conversion format "one old id" - "one new id", but I see that you have bungled Warmia with Masuria and Prussia, while IMO Warmia (looking at the "shape" of vanilla Danzig province), should be considered with Pomerelia. However IMO Chelmno (536) should be deducted from old map Prussia (so the province count is the same anyway: Prussia splt into 3, Danzig into 2 provinces)
 
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Norrefeldt

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zdlugasz said:
What are EXACTLY new guidelines ans what is our target for the conversion. Mostly for the known provinces purpose?
It's for the knownprovinces mainly. It might be that it can be used for converting all events, just to get a loadable version. That will of course require manual checking afterwards. So, it's good to get it as accurate as possible, but not important enough to discuss thoroughly.
zdlugasz said:
I got new conversion format "one old id" - "one new id", but I see that you have bungled Warmia with Masuria and Prussia, while IMO Warmia (looking at the "shape" of vanilla Danzig province), should be considered with Pomerelia. However IMO Chelmno (536) should be deducted from old map Prussia (so the province count is the same anyway: Prussia splt into 3, Danzig into 2 provinces)
OK, I'll change that!
 

zdlugasz

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And another question/nit-pick regarding tax considerations:

Dividing Prussia into 3 provinces (while converiting Memel into one) will leave Masuria, new Prussia etc poor. IMO dividing old Memel into Samogitia and Prussia and old Prussia into Masuria and Chelmno would allow for better redistribution of tax (in my tax proposal I did additional tax shifts anyway, that is why I did sometimes convert 2 old into 4 new provinces together).

Or do we completely skip tax considerations here?
 

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zdlugasz said:
And another question/nit-pick regarding tax considerations:

Dividing Prussia into 3 provinces (while converiting Memel into one) will leave Masuria, new Prussia etc poor. IMO dividing old Memel into Samogitia and Prussia and old Prussia into Masuria and Chelmno would allow for better redistribution of tax (in my tax proposal I did additional tax shifts anyway, that is why I did sometimes convert 2 old into 4 new provinces together).

Or do we completely skip tax considerations here?
It's been slightly amended for later versions of the partial map posts. I should change the wording everywhere, as I have done for the province conversion. It could also be improved from the discussions that followed since it was first brought up. As your example indicates, it wont work for single conversions.
The new version is:
As default provinces coming from a split old EU2 province in the new map get the combined tax values of the old one +1. Countries need to invest some to get the value out of the provinces, and this addition is an easy way to make up for it. There's already too much manpower on the map, and armies are several times the historical ones, and require no investment, so I don't think manpower should be affected. This formula is best applied to regions, like all provinces on this map piece.

Example: A region of old provinces had combined tax value X. Y new provinces added to the area which gives a combined tax values on the new map X+2Y.
 

unmerged(29041)

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1600 population of Sweden + Finland = 1 million.

Lets see how we distribute that between so many provinces.
Correct me but it looks to me that Stockholm should have a higher population, followed by Reval, Kalmar and Alvsborg. All the rest very low population.

AGCEEP 1.5 Sweden+Finland is = 252 253 254 257 1469 381 341 260 263 342 264 273 265 276

A first approach:

254 = 25,000*
276 = 15,000
252 = 10,000*
253 = 10,000*

342 = 6,000
257 = 5,000
265 = 5,000
1469 = 5,000
264 = 5,000
273 = 4,000
381 = 4,000

260 = 2,000°
263 = 2,000
341 = 2,000°

* indicates it has to be split for AGCEEP 2.0
° indicates it has to be merged for AGCEEP 2.0 (or one becoming PTI)

These are proposed values for 1600 that would be converted to 1419, 1580 and 1640 values. Is this correct?
 

Norrefeldt

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I'd say it's roughly correct.

According to the well-known Swedish historian Peter Englund, in the early 17th century Denmark-Norway had about 1.2 million inhabitants, and Sweden-Finland about 900,000. The Baltic provinces (only Estland 1600) were never treated like proper "Sweden", and shouldn't be included in that count. 260 was colonised very late (500 in 1600 is good, as there were no cities there then.) Bergslagen (257) with all mining should get slightly more.

If I just move around figures, for the same total, I would put it:

254 = 25,000*
(276 = 15,000)
252 = 10,000*
253 = 10,000*

342 = 6,000
257 = 7,000
265 = 5,000
1469 = 5,000
264 = 5,000
273 = 4,000
381 = 4,000

260 = 500°
263 = 1,500
341 = 1,000°

You might want to scale it to fit 900,000 instead of 1,000,000. 252 isn't split by the new map, but could lose some pop to Svealand at that point.