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Hallsten

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anti_strunt said:
You are making this more complicated than it has to be. ;)
A population boost of +1000 will make zero difference if the province is not below city size. It's just a safe guard, nothing else. So, you've got any good name/desc. ideas?

Complicated? I'm prepared to create >500 events to fill up Lappland if that's what it takes... ;)

A pop-boost of 1000 seems like a little too much.
Lappland has natives, so it only needs to reach 900 from the proposed start-value of 600. I think it'll work just fine... :)
 

Sute]{h

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I don't think a pop boost is a good solution UNLESS there is some good reason that the population in Lappland should suddenly dobble. If Sweden gets hit with plagues and stuff it is IMHO only fair that Lappland doesn't evolve to city status until late in the game.
 

Sute]{h

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Flame of Udûn said:
Of course there is the easy solution to merge Lappland with something else too...
Could be an option, but Lappland is more needed than Norrbotten. So lets start with axing that. ;)
 

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In the actual game timeframe, Norrbotten was more heavily populated and important, so if Norrbotten is irrelevant and should be axed...
 

unmerged(17489)

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Mad King James said:
In the actual game timeframe, Norrbotten was more heavily populated and important, so if Norrbotten is irrelevant and should be axed...
Norbotten...didn't... even... exist... ;)
 

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Neither did Lappland, except as a designation for land not yet colonized
 

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Mad King James said:
Neither did Lappland, except as a designation for land not yet colonized
in 1419 you are right, but it came into existance as an official province way before Norrbotten did, i.e. before the loss of Finland in 1809. The old Lappland province stretched all over Northern Sweden-Finland, as can be seen on this map, and as I said before Norrbotten still isn't an official province of Sweden, without an official coat of arms
 

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Might as well give it Osterbotten's old arms, it's not like you're using them and it's all that's left of it, or do you Swedes harbor secret hopes of reclaiming it? :rofl:
 

unmerged(28604)

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I dont care so much which province northern sweden belongs to (Lappland/västerbotten/norrbotten/whatever, as long as the national border is correct. I leave it to you people to decide.

The national border between Sweden and Norway was floating in the beginning of the timeframe, but we cant make floating graphics, and the agreement in 1751 is the only one that ever existed.
So I think a historical map should use the national border of 1751 (same as today). (With adjacency removed to norway, in the most northern part)
I think MKJ is close enough to that, som Im happy! Nice work MKJ! :)
 

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Why I want to axe Norrbotten:
  • Didn't exist as a administrative entity until the last decade of the game timeframe.
  • Messes up the 1809 border between Sweden and Russia.
  • Very sparsely populated as it is now on MKJ's map.
  • The Scandinavian setup has nothing to gain from adding a province up there IMVHO. I'd rather see that ID be put to use as a separate Älvsborg.

I think the Lappland-setup currently on the MKJ-map is great. No need to axe it...
 

Hallsten

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Sute]{h said:
I don't think a pop boost is a good solution UNLESS there is some good reason that the population in Lappland should suddenly dobble. If Sweden gets hit with plagues and stuff it is IMHO only fair that Lappland doesn't evolve to city status until late in the game.

The deal is that Lappland mustn't give Sweden a frontier-bonus. That would be much uglier than giving Lappland a sudden pop-boost IMHO.
 

Hallsten

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Mad King James said:
Neither did Lappland, except as a designation for land not yet colonized

Lappland still isn't an administrative entity, so that's not an issue IMHO.
As a province it got its coat of arms in 1560 for the funeral of Gustav I Wasa. Norrbotten as a province didn't get its official coat of arms until 1949.
 

unmerged(17489)

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Hallsten said:
I think the Lappland-setup currently on the MKJ-map is great. No need to axe it...
I was also in favour of a Lappland province first but...

  • It gives Sweden an ahistorical frontier country bonus unless we make it ahistorically populated, The colonization of todays Lappland didn't begin until the 17th century
  • It never changed hands historically
  • It was extremely poor
  • No armies could move there
  • Sweden is ahistorically rich already

Why not merge it with Västerbotten? A lot of places in Sweden and the world were very sparsely populated in 1419 and were colonized later, but all or most of them are included in another province.
 

unmerged(17489)

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Hallsten said:
Lappland still isn't an administrative entity, so that's not an issue IMHO.
As a province it got its coat of arms in 1560 for the funeral of Gustav I Wasa. Norrbotten as a province didn't get its official coat of arms until 1949.
This is wrong. Lappland *is* an official province (landskap) today, but Norrbotten isn't. Norrbotten doesn't have an official coat of arms, there are several unofficial ones but no official ones.
 

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Hallsten said:
The deal is that Lappland mustn't give Sweden a frontier-bonus. That would be much uglier than giving Lappland a sudden pop-boost IMHO.
I think that either Sweden get a frontier bonus, which is historical since it was colonising a lot in Northern Sweden and it was supported from the government, or Lapland isn't there at all. Giving it a city from start would be a the worst solution.

How rich Sweden is will be determined by tax values, much lower in AGCEEP than in vanilla. Adding a poor province will make it poorer, since it wont make up for the extra tech cost.
 

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Norrefeldt said:
I think that either Sweden get a frontier bonus, which is historical since it was colonising a lot in Northern Sweden and it was supported from the government, or Lapland isn't there at all. Giving it a city from start would be a the worst solution.

How rich Sweden is will be determined by tax values, much lower in AGCEEP than in vanilla. Adding a poor province will make it poorer, since it wont make up for the extra tech cost.
My vote is include Lappland with a starting population of 600. No population boosting event. Sweden will get the frontier bonus until Lappland develops into a city which should happen around 1500. That is fine by me. I guess a Sweden hit by plagues and stuff could perhaps extend this bonus somewhat, but IIRC events targeting random provinces doesn't hit colonies. If it does I can live with a Sweden with frontier bonus. That would be an unhistorical outcome regradless.
 

Hallsten

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Sute]{h said:
My vote is include Lappland with a starting population of 600. No population boosting event. Sweden will get the frontier bonus until Lappland develops into a city which should happen around 1500. That is fine by me. I guess a Sweden hit by plagues and stuff could perhaps extend this bonus somewhat, but IIRC events targeting random provinces doesn't hit colonies. If it does I can live with a Sweden with frontier bonus. That would be an unhistorical outcome regradless.

hear hear, sounds perfect to me. Maybe 650 or 700 to make up for lower stability and so on.

Flame of Udûn said:
This is wrong. Lappland *is* an official province (landskap) today, but Norrbotten isn't. Norrbotten doesn't have an official coat of arms, there are several unofficial ones but no official ones.

With "administrative entity" I was referring to "län". Neither Lappland nor Norrbotten are separate Läns, but Lappland has been a separate province for much longer then Norrbotten.
That's why Lappland is more historical then Norrbotten, but I'm pretty sure we agree on that part at least... :)
Lappland was poor, but some fur-trading should be possible IMHO. Moreover, the wealth of Sweden is handeled through general base-tax-assignment, not the amount of provinces.