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Hallsten

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Sleepyhead said:
What's wrong with Jämtland?
Sweden did own it a lot longer then Denmark, and Sweden is a more important EU country than Norway since it never was independent during this timeframe

Jämtland is wrong since the province was Norwegian 1419.
Up until 1536(?) Norway and Denmark were in a personal-union, meaning that there were TWO nations but one king. After 1536 there was ONE nation, so saying that it was a Danish province is wrong upuntil 1536.
Importance can't enter into it either IMHO.
 

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Hallsten said:
Jämtland is wrong since the province was Norwegian 1419.
Up until 1536(?) Norway and Denmark were in a personal-union, meaning that there were TWO nations but one king. After 1536 there was ONE nation, so saying that it was a Danish province is wrong upuntil 1536.
Importance can't enter into it either IMHO.
Well yes, but it wasn't independent.
I just didn't think the map should represent everything as it was 1419 but how it was during the major time of the game.
 

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Sleepyhead said:
Well yes, but it wasn't independent.
I just didn't think the map should represent everything as it was 1419 but how it was during the major time of the game.

No, not independent. But the Norwegian name was the one used until 1645.
It's best to model the 1419 situation, since there's nothing that says that Sweden WILL conquer Jämtland in 1645.
 

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Hallsten said:
No, not independent. But the Norwegian name was the one used until 1645.
It's best to model the 1419 situation, since there's nothing that says that Sweden WILL conquer Jämtland in 1645.
No, but historically they did, and agceep is a historical mod right?
 

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I suppose the map showed by MKJ in his first post in his thread is the updated one? In that case I would humbly suggest that he at least makes the PTI into a narrow corridor. While I would propose it should be taken away completly (attrition is good enough to stop armies there) I think we should at least avoid covering populated parts of Sweden and that means most of the area up to the mountains. And there is not exactly a big parts of the mountain range within Sweden.
 

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Hallsten said:
No, not independent. But the Norwegian name was the one used until 1645.
It's best to model the 1419 situation, since there's nothing that says that Sweden WILL conquer Jämtland in 1645.

Not a holdable arguement as a lot of territories changed hand and in game there is the name after the conquest. Example: Andalusia.

Of course wether Sweden was a more important country is not a good argument for the naming either that should not affect it either. We should agree on something that feels best for it's place in history and IMO it is quite hard to judge in this case
 

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Jkris said:
I suppose the map showed by MKJ in his first post in his thread is the updated one? In that case I would humbly suggest that he at least makes the PTI into a narrow corridor. While I would propose it should be taken away completly (attrition is good enough to stop armies there) I think we should at least avoid covering populated parts of Sweden and that means most of the area up to the mountains. And there is not exactly a big parts of the mountain range within Sweden.

That map is always hte newst one, yes.
I'm against the removal of Lappland, but the PTI is important IMHO. The biggest forces that could possibly invade Norway from Lappland or Österbotten wouldn't be bigger than perhaps 100 or so men and that's impossible to model with the game as of now. In vanilla EU2 it is possible to invade Norway with a 30000 men army from Lappland, which is by no means possible.
 

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Sleepyhead said:
Well yes, but it wasn't independent.
I just didn't think the map should represent everything as it was 1419 but how it was during the major time of the game.

Hmmmm, even if we go by what you suggest, the spelling over the majority of the time etc. - then Jemtland will win? 1419-1645 = 226 years with Jemtland 1645-1819 = 174 years with Jämtland........

P.S. Swedes spelled it Jemtland for quite a bit too, take a peek at these maps from riksarkiven etc:
http://www.ra.se/KRA/bilder/0400/02/0106.jpg and http://www.ra.se/KRA/bilder/0400/02/0118.jpg

So it seems as if Jämtland really just is contemporary swedish.
 
Last edited:

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Jkris said:
Not a holdable arguement as a lot of territories changed hand and in game there is the name after the conquest. Example: Andalusia.

Of course wether Sweden was a more important country is not a good argument for the naming either that should not affect it either. We should agree on something that feels best for it's place in history and IMO it is quite hard to judge in this case

There's a thread that's trying to iron out a consistent naming-scheme for the new map, but I don't see that it's possible. This is one of the cases where the "spainified" name of the province is used. I wouldn't have a problem calling Andalucía "al-Andalus" (or whatever would be a correct moorish name) though. :rolleyes:
 

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Hallsten said:
1. That map is always hte newst one, yes.
2. I'm against the removal of Lappland,
3. but the PTI is important IMHO.
4. The biggest forces that could possibly invade Norway from Lappland or Österbotten wouldn't be bigger than perhaps 100 or so men and that's impossible to model with the game as of now.
5. In vanilla EU2 it is possible to invade Norway with a 30000 men army from Lappland, which is by no means possible.

1. Thanks
2. Me too, altough it was not important or could be said to be part of Sweden until the 17th century. I meantioned in some threads about Sweden being overpowered about the problem of having that region colonised (and therefore as a Swedish province) centuries before it happened IRL.
3. It is wrong IMO :D
4. Because of this and I seen it been mentioned several times. We should be consistant, either we have PTI in a lot of places all over the map. To hinder troop movements where they didn't go ro we don't use them at all. In summertime it was fully possible to move much bigger armies than a 100 men, where the real limit would be lack of roads to make it feasible. But there was nothing hindering the possibility to make roads or walkable passes to norway, just a lack of interest to try that route as the territories wasn't even particulary interesting.
5. Only someone with a lot of ducats would do something like that, someone that want a quick assault. The game surerly have mechanism that makes it a bad thing to do without assaulting and even at that you will suffer quite considerable losses. It's all about game engine, did sweden ever move 30.000 men into norway even in the south IRL?

Hallsten said:
There's a thread that's trying to iron out a consistent naming-scheme for the new map, but I don't see that it's possible. This is one of the cases where the "spainified" name of the province is used. I wouldn't have a problem calling Andalucía "al-Andalus" (or whatever would be a correct moorish name) though. :rolleyes:

a incredible small concern for me too. Just saying that both are viable, as long as we don't use made up names I am happy.
 

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Jkris said:
1. Thanks
2. Me too, altough it was not important or could be said to be part of Sweden until the 17th century. I meantioned in some threads about Sweden being overpowered about the problem of having that region colonised (and therefore as a Swedish province) centuries before it happened IRL.
3. It is wrong IMO :D
4. Because of this and I seen it been mentioned several times. We should be consistant, either we have PTI in a lot of places all over the map. To hinder troop movements where they didn't go ro we don't use them at all. In summertime it was fully possible to move much bigger armies than a 100 men, where the real limit would be lack of roads to make it feasible. But there was nothing hindering the possibility to make roads or walkable passes to norway, just a lack of interest to try that route as the territories wasn't even particulary interesting.
5. Only someone with a lot of ducats would do something like that, someone that want a quick assault. The game surerly have mechanism that makes it a bad thing to do without assaulting and even at that you will suffer quite considerable losses. It's all about game engine, did sweden ever move 30.000 men into norway even in the south IRL?

3,4&5: I think it's much more important to be able to model the disability to move 1000+ forces than to model the ability to move sub 1000 forces. As said maaaany times before, an army cannot move faster than its supplytrain and given the terrain it's not possible to move from Lappland to Norway with a sizeable force. Instead, any invasion of northern Norway would go through Jämtland to Tröndelag, just like in real life.
So, in short: An invasion from Lappland or Österbotten is neither possible nor desireable given the better invasion-routes available.

Karl XII's Norwegian campaign of 1718 involved some 40000 men IIRC.
 

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Hallsten said:
3,4&5: I think it's much more important to be able to model the disability to move 1000+ forces than to model the ability to move sub 1000 forces. As said maaaany times before, an army cannot move faster than its supplytrain and given the terrain it's not possible to move from Lappland to Norway with a sizeable force. Instead, any invasion of northern Norway would go through Jämtland to Tröndelag, just like in real life.
So, in short: An invasion from Lappland or Österbotten is neither possible nor desireable given the better invasion-routes available.

Well, from what I've seen i think the largest swedish army in the 1643-1645 war in Jemtland/Jämtland was around 3.000 men - other sources name numbers all the way down to 500... So it really is a moot point in my opinion. Truth is that very rarely was single armies of over 5.000-7.000 men ever featured in any single area in those wars...

Hallsten said:
Karl XII's Norwegian campaign of 1718 involved some 40000 men IIRC.

Think the army used to invade was 36.000 men in all, but they were never gathered at one place, but split over all the scenes of operation - like 7.500 to invade Trondhjem...
 

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Regardless, we should see if not MKJ could either put in Lappland or make the PTI look more like a white line than a big blob. eh, make the PTI look narrow/little with either way. As I seen about this before any discussions about tax income and such is not applicable ATM.
 

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Sven_vegas said:
Ooops, :eek:, I didnt mean that Sweden needs it, its just nice to have it since it was there before :)

You know, that this is just too funny! :D

When they are suggesting cutting off the northern passage between Sweden and Finland, you guys are like "well, hold on just a minute... there WAS some movement there"! Brilliant! :D

And now this!
-"Eh, wait... what about that Frontier Bonus"?
-Whaddaya mean, there is no province to colonise.
-"Well, uh, it's you know, nice when you want to...you know, colonise the americas"
-AHA!

No dice, punk! :D
 

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Dimes said:
Well, from what I've seen i think the largest swedish army in the 1643-1645 war in Jemtland/Jämtland was around 3.000 men - other sources name numbers all the way down to 500... So it really is a moot point in my opinion. Truth is that very rarely was single armies of over 5.000-7.000 men ever featured in any single area in those wars...

That's true, but I still don't see why that doesn't make a PTI a good idea. :rolleyes:

Dimes said:
Think the army used to invade was 36.000 men in all, but they were never gathered at one place, but split over all the scenes of operation - like 7.500 to invade Trondhjem...

Yes, that's true. I checked another (better) source and it has your exact figures... :D
Sundberg "Svenska krig 1521-1814" Hjalmarson&Högberg 2002? ;)
 

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Galleblære said:
You know, that this is just too funny! :D

When they are suggesting cutting off the northern passage between Sweden and Finland, you guys are like "well, hold on just a minute... there WAS some movement there"! Brilliant! :D

And now this!
-"Eh, wait... what about that Frontier Bonus"?
-Whaddaya mean, there is no province to colonise.
-"Well, uh, it's you know, nice when you want to...you know, colonise the americas"
-AHA!

No dice, punk! :D

oh pretty please? We want our bonus... :rolleyes: :D
 

unmerged(12680)

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Well, if the Norweigans/Danes can get a bonus from Hålogaland I really don't see any harm... ;)

BTW, a question about Swedish history: Was Lappland really so much more thinly inhabited than, say, Tavastehus?
 

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anti_strunt said:
Well, if the Norweigans/Danes can get a bonus from Hålogaland I really don't see any harm... ;)

BTW, a question about Swedish history: Was Lappland really so much more thinly inhabited than, say, Tavastehus?

aaaah, good point about Hålogaland... :D

I'm not sure, but I doubt that Lappland had more inhabitants than Tavastehus in 1419. I don't know about how it was later on, but there was a deliberate colonisation of lower Lappland from the middle ages and onwards.
 

yourworstnightm

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Flame of Udûn said:
Denmark doesnt get frontier country bonus since they dont have land access to Hålgoaland
Maybe they should get, it was not like these areas didn't get inhabitnats during this period.