almoravid said:
@Bash
I'm not even remotely able to draw maps as pretty as MKJ does. But here is what seems to be the result of our discussion. Tell me your oppinion on it.
1.Moscow
2.Tver
3.Yaroslavl
4.Zales'e
5.Nizhny
6.Tula
7.Ryazan
8.Pskov
9.Ingermanland
10.Kexholm
11.Daghestan
12.Kakheti
13.Kolkhis
Note that north of that chart, all the area would be PTI, including Finnmark.
..........
This is maybe off-topic, but I think we should clarify the importance of Galich, even if I don't think any longer that we should include it on our map. As Bash pointed out, it was a small, unimportant fortress quite far in the north, which of course did not provide Yuri Zvenigorodsky with the troops he needed to fight the grand duke. Neither did it provide him with any economic resources, which were sparse anyway as our chronist tells us his troops were rather ill-equipped mob then warriors. So why did Yuri go that far from his powerbase in Zvenigorod, and put his seat at Galich? This Yuri was quite a bright person, on contrary to Vasily II.
The answer is simple. Everybody will see that the first 'civil war' was not a conflict between Yuri and Vasily, but between Yuri and Vitautas. So the reason is a strategical one. If Yuri stayed in Zvenigorod and gathered his troops there, he'd soon see 40000 Lithuanians at his gates, plus the troops of the duke. Vitautas could easily attack a place on his border, but he could not march through the entire Muscovy to get Yuri at Galich. The warriors of that time were willing to die in battles, but long marches took tremendous tolls on their capability. Also, if a horde of Lithuanians marched through the realm, they would need to be supported - on costs of local population. Then the war could quite easily gain a national-liberation character, and Vasily would lose his last supporters. Besides, Vitautas got his lesson on Vorskla, and did not wish to repeat it.
Looking at these aspects we see why Vitautas decided to conservate the situation, and 'advised' Vasily to offer peace. When Vitautas died and Lithuania fell into a civil war, Yuri again pressed his demands to go to the horde, and Vasily went, because now he could not count on Lithuanian swords to protect him. Although the Khan supported Vasily, Yuri could see he was quite indifferent on the issue. So Yuri had good reasons to hope that the Khan would not send his armies against him if he deposed Vasily. And so he stroke...
Ergo... Galich played a very important role in that long story
First things must be first. Your chart is fine - it can be initial draft for Russian map indeed. Just one small thing or another.
I'm not sure if we need to create special "Kamenny Poyas" province. Ural mountains start to elevate quite hard to south direction and was quite non-passable - in contrary to Mid-Ural region. Espacially ugly is proposition to make link through "Kamenny Poyas" between Sibir and Bashkiria.
I would vote for making PTI instead of this province.
More then that "Bashkiria" must be rather onto left bank on Kama river to East from "Kazan" - not to South. If you check in official chart of Russian Federation like -
http://maps.yandex.ru - you will realize Kazan must be placed - strictly in mid-section of line Ufa (capital of Baskiria) - Nizhgorod. Strictly speaking it is almost direct line into East - Moscow-Nizhgorod-Kazan-Ufa with equal distances between all 4 cities, but in you presentation it is rather steep parabola with quite hyard dpwning into Moscow and Ufa ends.
I've mean vanilla Paradox chart with placement of Nizhgorod - strictly to East from Moscow and Kazan - strictly to East from Nizhgorod was correct thing. Non-correct thing in Vanilla chart in this region was placemant Bashkiria to South from Kazan, when it is situated in East direction.
Please, see it on official RF chart yourself.
I would strictly against any name like "Mordva" on the chart. "Penza" would be more appropriate, because "Penza province" was most important district of region, when "Mordva/Saransk" thing was implementation of more recent times. Ugh... Well, "Mordva" will do anyway - if you prefer this name and if we make any decision to implement this province - anyway.
I would vote for dividing of land "Mordva/Penza" region for simplification process - give it to Tambow, Kazan, Nizhgorod or you will get a huge headache when start to make event list for Russia - I warned you.
Next thing - I can't find most important feature for Russian - core-land region - where is Oka River?
Oka River must be most important barrier between Muscovy and Lithuania, Muscovy and Rjazan. Yep, "Tula" region is representing "Zaokovskije principalities" then it must be on south bank of Oka river as well as Lithuanian' Kaluga and independent Rjazan. Sure thing you can make some token river (like Osetr) between Kaluga and Tula for underlying problems to making direct march from Kaluga to Tula through rather impassable forests of region.
Next thing - Astrakhan region MUST be on East bank of Volga River - not in West bank - definitely, then your Yaik province must be halved.
Forget about "Sarai" province of this magnitude - West bank of Volga must receive name of "Tzaritzyn" - early or later, then corresponding/neighboring province to West of "Bogutjar" or something similar must exist as well.
Land of your "Astrakhan" is quite non-fertile then some "Kalmyk" region with quite shitty numbers would be appropriate as quite good "screening" thing to Crimean Khan appetites in East direction.
It's my first impression about this chart.
Dixi.
Sincerely yours, Bash
P.S.
Excuse me for asking - are you sure if Juri Zvenigorodsky outlived Vitautas or could hear about Vorskla battle outcome??
Are you sure if Lithuanians had in 1419 strenght enough for crushing Zvenigorod fortress - let's put aside more hard task about crushing wall of Kremlin??
Excuse me for pointing you but well-known by EU2 game Muscovy leader "Juri Patrikeev" was... commander-in-chief of Juri Zvenigorodsky forces - not vice-versa and came to Grand Duke service only after Jury untimely death. More then that Patrikeev was quite famous for this "neutral" stance in Civil war as well as all his veteran troops. He wasn't on side of "Galich insurgents", but he wasn't on side of Grand Duke as well!
Grim truth about Civil war is - both sides were "armed mobs" more then regular army, when regular army preferred to "wash hands" by strenghtening fortresses on Lithuanian border - it is big reason to name Patrikeev and his brethren as "Jurieviches" backer more then Grand Duke backer.
Excuse me for pointing - Zvenigorod was never sieged by Lithuanians due to quite "impregnable" astatus of this bordering fortress. Did you see Zvenigorod' walls for making statement - local inhabitants feared Lithuanian invasion?!
Quite contrary - this land was constant wasp' nest for Lithuanians, because Juri' backers (as well as his precedessors or descendants) constantly broke any treaties with Lithuanians by harrasing/robbing/pillaging Lithuanian lands - not vice versa. Lithuanians suffered from Zvenigorod assailants more then Zvenigorodians - it's historical truth, not something else!
According to historical annales - Prince Golytzins bear more lithuanians blood in their veins due to common Lithuanian policy - to marry bothersome neighbors for calming their appetites, because Golytzins (yep, direct descendants of Juri and his sons) kept their Zvenigorod stronghold and used to harass/stalk/thug/knuckle down any Lithuanians in vicinity due to their "blood feud with Lithuanians".
Main phase of Civil war came to end as soon as Basil II was knuckled down enough by "Galich/Golytzins" family to taking back his initial demand to "free Zvenigorod fortress from Galich troops and go out to Galich". Sure thing - absolute majority of rebels seek just that - keeping their impregnable stronghold and continue their quite Raubritter-life. Just imagine - you are making a lot of joyriding into enemy lands, has got a lot of bounty and - robbed Lithuanian nobles prefer to make wedding proposals instead of counter-raids. It is quite funny way of life for Medieval feudal, isn't it? Why it was? Little hint - come to Zvenigorod ans see its Fortress walls. They are a bit higher then Kremlin walls
. Situation when Fortress walls of some Feudal are more sturdy and higher then Fortress walls of Grand Duke is good enough reason for any medieval insurgency - isn't it?
Pls, check in History - Muscovy never took over any lands to west from Zvenigorod from Lithuania in straight battle. All these lands came to Russian realms as property of Princes Golytsins received by them as marriage results.
Then we came to core of Civil war problem - as soon as "Galich/Golytz/Golytzin" family kept their stronghold instead of initial demand of Grand Duke to give it up to his direct posession, "Galich family" took back their claim on throne of Muscovy - and both sides were happy.
Then there were "insurgents" inside "Galich/Golytzin" family - like Vasil Squinty-Eyed and Dmitry Shemyaka which led rebellion against Grand Duke and their own family! Try to realize - Galich/Golytzin family kept their Zvenigorod stronghold as main part of bargain with grand Duke - then Basil Squinty-Eyed and Dmitry Shemyaka was "pushed out" to real Galich by their own Family as trouble-makers and violators of "mutual hearty agreement"!
Pls, understand historical fact - all Golytzins and Godunovs kept their hereditary lands around Zvenigorod - most sturdy and strong Muscovitan fortress of XV century - nobody of them went to Galich. Then any speculation about their fright of Lithuanian invasion is just speculations - these guys led their inofficial "small war" with Lithuanians - all times and were happy to make as many mischiefs in Muscovy/Lithuanian politic as possible. Sad Truth is - "constant small war with Lithuanians" was most profitable Business for these guys. In some sense they were direct analogues of Chechen warlords of modern times, which used to harass neighboring territories with strong backing of inpregnable Zvenigorod/Chechnia - if something goes wrong.
I'm far from comparing some grand-dad of Boris Godunov (of Galich family) with Shamil Basaev or Aslan Maskhadov, but some parallels are on surface - I'm afraid. Civil war came to end for these Chechen/"Galich" warlords as soon as Grand Duke took back his demand for Chechnia/Zvenigorod as part of RF/Muscovy. Some guys which was against this agreement was "pushed out" from "Chechnia"/Zvenigorod and second phase of Civil war started. (By the way - I'm sure - if Chechen warlords would be strong/smart enough for kicking out from Chechnia some "breakers of agreement" - we would get in Chechnia eventually the same result as in Muscovy of XV century. Russian history shows - whole Golytzins/Godunovs family was incorporated in Russian nobility in "seamless fashion" in 100-150 years time-period. More then that - one from descendants of these fiery Raubritter - Boris Godunov was Russian Czar
. It's rather weird - historical interpolation to modern Chechnia affairs - if we wouldn't get "second phase of Chechnia war" - isn't it?
Well, I mean - it's quite different picture of Civil war then picture in your perception. Yep, it's rather difficult to see Lithuanians as victims of this constant "small war" - not predators like in your perception, but pls, compare this situation with modern Chechnia picture.
Are you sure if "Chechen warlords" are victims of all their neighbours, - not actual predators in this relationship, huh?
Are you sure if "Golytzin warlords" were victims of all their neighbours, - not actual predators in this relationship, huh?
Dixi.
