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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Hallsten

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Galleblære said:
But don't you see, if we create artificial borders to simulate historic attack routes in Scandinavia/Russia, we need to do that everywhere else.

Like I said, for something like the hundreth time, you can't have different rules for different areas. Just think about it in multiplayer, why should players controlling nations in other parts of the world be allowed to use "unhistoric" attack routes, but not Russia/Sweden/Denmark? Why this insanely stuck up rigid stance just here?

I mean, a French player can easily incade the UK from Scotland or York for example, when that would have been suicide in real life. Should we then create "PTI" alongst the shorelines of England to block them off? Block off any other highly improbable attack route in europe?

Again, this can easily be handeled by handing out very expensive movement times in "unattackable routes".

Don't you see, I am not against the concept of making attack routes from difficult places less off an exploit, I am TOTALLY AGAINST using PTI to FORCE the player into doing it. Big difference. Historically, leaders didnt cross armies here because they knew it would be extremly hard to pull of. Was it impossible? No. Thus, PTI is not warranted.

I agree with you in general, but not in this particular case. I think the PTI would do a lot for historicity.
Let's just agree on disagreeing on this one and let the HC decide? :rolleyes:
I personally won't budge with the present arguments and I guess it's the same with you... :D
 

Galleblære

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Hallsten said:
I agree with you in general, but not in this particular case. I think the PTI would do a lot for historicity.
Let's just agree on disagreeing on this one and let the HC decide? :rolleyes:
I personally won't budge with the present arguments and I guess it's the same with you... :D

When you can have almost the exact same effect WITHOUT the PTI, the choice is quite simple! ;)

Just consider this. The Scandinavian players upgrades Finnmark to a city (unhistoric) this also allows Russian armies to pillage and survive easier.. so in a way the player is encouraged to not upgrade it to a city too quick, knowing that the extremly long movement time coupleled with winter will kill of a huge amount of troops there. Simply, it's not worth it.

Regarding your argument for making stuff historical, I still stand by that you can't play by different rules in different parts of the world.
 

Hallsten

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Galleblære said:
When you can have almost the exact same effect WITHOUT the PTI, the choice is quite simple! ;)

How will you do that without the PTI?

Galleblære said:
Just consider this. The Scandinavian players upgrades Finnmark to a city (unhistoric) this also allows Russian armies to pillage and survive easier.. so in a way the player is encouraged to not upgrade it to a city too quick, knowing that the extremly long movement time coupleled with winter will kill of a huge amount of troops there. Simply, it's not worth it.

Whate are you trying to say here? I gont get it...

Galleblære said:
Regarding your argument for making stuff historical, I still stand by that you can't play by different rules in different parts of the world.

You do that and I'll stand by that you can... :rolleyes:
 

Birger

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Galleblære said:
There was actually a war fought between Denmark and Sweden, and part of the reason was to force Sweden to recognize the Danish-Norwegian claim in the north.

What war would that be, just interested... :)
 

Hallsten

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Birger said:
What war would that be, just interested... :)

Kalmarkriget (the Kalmar war) 1611-1613, Sweden abandoned its claims on the Ice Sea-coast in the peace of Knäred in 1613. This is overshadowed by the second ransom of Älvsborg though, so noone really remembers it... :rolleyes:

edit: I don't think any campaigning was ever conducted up there though...
 

Birger

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You're right, now I remember. :eek:o

Oh there was some campaigning up there, mainly against the lapps...
 

Hallsten

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Birger said:
You're right, now I remember. :eek:o

Oh there was some campaigning up there, mainly against the lapps...

Really? I didn't know that... :)
Must've been a pretty limited campaign though, right?
 

almoravid

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@Dimes
I believe that the personality of Yuri Patrikeev had more impact on the course of world history then the existence of Finnmark, just like Bonaparte had probably more impact then, say, Smolensk, which, mind you, was a rather important princedom. I.e. I'd rather leave out Smolensk then Bonaparte in a game about 1419-1820. That may sound bizarre to you, but that's my personal view.
But historicity is not everything in our mod, of course, and as Muscovy of the first half of 15th century should not be expanding it's territory at all, we might be forced to drop or weaken this leader. That said, I don't think Patrikeev is the reason for Moscow being able to take Finnmark. The true reason is the fact that a colony bordering my realm is inviting me to step in, take it without BB and convert it to my culture &religion with one colonist. If it is as strategically important as Finnmark and Narvik, it's a definite thing. And map stealing does reveal sea maps, afaik. Thus, a Russian-orthodox Iceland is very attractive. When I get my (admittedly late-game) explorers, these provinces pay off their values, plus I'm able to strike at any place of Europe.

@Galleblaere
Moving 100000 men over Sinai was (and is) far more feasible then crossing to Norway over Kola. You should bless this fact, as else, Norway would get liberated by the Red Army in 1944/45, with all the consequences for that country. As for turks invading India, it's not geography's fault but the failure of Persia, which should and will get strengthened. I know Danish fought Swedes for who could in theory call himself 'the ruler of Finnmark', it's just the same with Ivan arguing with the Swedes over Kola, without neither army ever penetrating that area. BTW, besides the Swedes have royally beaten our ass 1560-1618, taking whatever they wanted and thinking of gobbling up Novgorod, they still did not impose their rule over Kola, because it was a frozen wood with a few wild inhabitants and zero economical importance. In game, however, Sweden WILL want to take Kola after a major war, while Russia WILL be sending troops into Norway. It's the very same nonsence as, say, colonizing the interior of Greenland. Humbug irritating the ai. I don't think these provinces have more importance then Sahara interior, because there, you had some trade routes and state-like Bedouin/Tuareg tribes. In Himalaya, you had some rather big towns and a high culture. The importance of Kola/Finmark is the same as the importance of the uncharted rain forests of Brazil!

@Josip
Did I tell you thanks for that map? Not, then: thank you. But now to some problems, as I took a closer look at it.
1. We have some rather big provinces around there, anyway, so I don't think we need a province between Samara and Bashkiria. In fact, there is nothing of importance in between. I know my proposal crowds the west and makes the east quite province-less, but that's the weird economic situation of my motherland in that time frame. The lands between Volga valley and Ural mountains were not really important and sparsely populated for most of the time frame. Samara, Ufa and Orenburg were the only noteworthy population centres of that are by 19th century. Thinking of it, Kamenny Poyas, plus a part of Togliatti and Uralsk could go PTI. Rest of Togliatti and Uralsk would be divided between it's neighbours, so we have these three provinces
2. I see you don't include the river after all. Then merge Lukomorie and Arkhangelsk. Don't worry, we'll make it three month to pass through. Same with Kola and Karelia.
3. See? Anti-Strunt also likes it. We'll convince Bash, sooner or later ;)
4. Why is Kaluga south of Smolensk? If it should be included, then it should include Vyazma and thus separate Moscow from Smolensk. Also, Smolensk is south of Velikie Luki or Memel. Know what? Just shift the names of your Smolensk and Kaluga, expand that new Smolensk province on expense of Kursk and Mozyr and it's close to all right.
5. Make Ryazan larger on expense of Tambov and Voronezh provinces. Can you see Yelets or Lipetsk in your Atlas? Ryazan should stretch till one of these towns.
6. Do you think you can fit in a Bryansk between Kursk, Mozyr, Smolensk and Chernigov, bordering all 4 provinces? Would be neat. But in these lands, I feel we'll need to cooperate with our polish members.
7. As Anti-Strunt pointed out, remove the hydro plants, especially at Rybinsk and on Dniepr.
 

Josip

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Oh and Almoravid, just noticed that you posted some new suggestion, haven't read them yet, but will soon and apply changes...
But for the moment, new version up:
RUSSIA.gif
 

Dimes

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almoravid said:
@Dimes
But historicity is not everything in our mod, of course, and as Muscovy of the first half of 15th century should not be expanding it's territory at all, we might be forced to drop or weaken this leader.

This was my point exactly ;)

almoravid said:
That said, I don't think Patrikeev is the reason for Moscow being able to take Finnmark. The true reason is the fact that a colony bordering my realm is inviting me to step in, take it without BB and convert it to my culture &religion with one colonist. If it is as strategically important as Finnmark and Narvik, it's a definite thing. And map stealing does reveal sea maps, afaik. Thus, a Russian-orthodox Iceland is very attractive. When I get my (admittedly late-game) explorers, these provinces pay off their values, plus I'm able to strike at any place of Europe.

I was just sort of quoting Bash's opinion that it was common knowledge to use Patrikeev to do the naughty Finnmark/Narvik --> Iceland --> Greenland --> North America gambit. And that it was mainly Patrikeev that allowed Moscow to do this as no Scandinavian country had any leaders that could stand against him. Bash's quotes are from different answers but put together are hard to misunderstand I think ;p

Bash said:
For example: Must I show you special Manual on this Forum, which explain to Newbies - best possible "solution" for playing for "Mother Russia"? Alas, Russia has got a lot of shitty provinces in Steppes and Siberia, then best possible proved way to play for our country is:
1) Crushing Novgorod. (We are playing as Moscow).
2) Declare war on Scandinavia (Kalmar Union) immediately with taking Finnmark and Narvik as war spoils.
Lappland acquiring is optional, then we are used to hit Sweden out from war, by sieging her capital and proposing "white peace" on negotiation, and Danish troops can't turn tide of war for Norway/Denmark favor on their own military strenght. Strictly speaking - I've got an impression - sieging Skone and proposing "white peace" for Denmark is enough for cutting war to just Muscovy-Norway opposition and Norway used to give up - Finmark and Narvik colonies in this case.
Of course - fighting with plain Norway - means successful sieging of Norway capital - for getting charts of Iceland and Greenland region.
By the way - getting Narvik and Finnmark as war spoils yield "coastal bonus" for Muscovy - good enough thing for starting this war - without any "casus belli" at all, when getting Ingermanland or else is quite huge headache
You can wonder, but Muscovy had some guy with Juri Patrikeev name from the start (quite historical person - by the way) and I didn't see any Muscovy war with Patrikeev in head against Kalmar Union troops, which would turn bad for Muscovy in vanilla game.
3) Upgrade Narvik to full city ASAP and start to build Russian fleet.
4) Start next war with Karmar Union for Iceland and coastal province of Greenland. (We don't need Greenland "inland" province at all).
5) Wait for first Muscovitan explorer (in end of XV century) and through - "jumping airfields" in form of Narvik - Iceland - Greenland jump in North America (without any attrition loss), start Russian colonisation process from Manhattan.

Bash said:
Scandinavs (directed by human) just haven't enough tools for stopping "Patrikeev' death squad" of Muscovy on its tracks.

My point with all this is. Won't it be a LOT harder (and hence preferable) to do all this warring in arctic with no "Patrikeev death squad".? ;)
 

unmerged(12680)

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Humm, again a very nice map, but most of my complaints still stand:

1). The tiny bi-Volga around Astrakhan is pointless and should be removed.
2). Astrakhan province itself must be reworked to either have rivers on either side (like a Nile Delta province should) or be on one side of the river.
3). Remove the Rybinsk Reservoir.
4). Please remove all, or at least most, traces of hyrdo-power plants on Russian rivers. The worst offenders would be the Dniepr south of Volhynia; Don around Donetsk; and well, most of the Volga, especially the areas around Saratov, Mordva, Kazan and the wierd huge lake up at Perm.

If these were to be fixed I would have no further complaints. For now. ;)
 

Hallsten

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A lot better, but I still want to nag a little... :rolleyes:
I'm a bit unhappy with Livland and Kurland:

This is a map over the lands of the previous Livonian Order:
livland8xu.jpg


The map is in Swedish, but I'm sure you'll get by... :)
The biggest part of Livland became Swedish in 1629. Eastern Livland, Lettgallen in German, stayed Polish and Kurland (to the south) should be a vassal of Poland just like in vanilla EU2.

Moreover, Österbotten should go a little farther south and watch that four-province-border in northern Kexholm.
Vyborg should be Viborg, it wasn't Vyborg until WW2.
 

Herr Doctor

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Kurland and Semigalia must be separate provinces through the both historical (whish I mentioned in Polish-Lithuanian thread some time ago) and the gameplay reasons (in order to resolve the problem of the “long” Kurland province, connecting Polotsk, Samogitia, Vilnia etc).
http://www.geocities.com/kirylaf/maps/map5.txt
 

Josip

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Maybe something like this:
RUSSIA.gif



Although, I'm not ready to move Astrakhan around just yet... I think it should represent control of Volga delta, e.g. whom ever controlled Astrakhan, actually controlled north Caspian-Volga trade routes...
Just my two cents.
 

Hallsten

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Josip said:
Maybe something like this:
<map>


Although, I'm not ready to move Astrakhan around just yet... I think it should represent control of Volga delta, e.g. whom ever controlled Astrakhan, actually controlled north Caspian-Volga trade routes...
Just my two cents.

I see you fixed the Baltic states, I like! :)

On another note I'd like the borders of Kexholm a a little adjusted. Kexholm should slant pretty significantly into Finland:
karelennecopy0le.jpg

Kexholm is the area between the 1595 and 1617 borders...
 

Galleblære

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almoravid said:
@Galleblaere
Moving 100000 men over Sinai was (and is) far more feasible then crossing to Norway over Kola. You should bless this fact, as else, Norway would get liberated by the Red Army in 1944/45, with all the consequences for that country. As for turks invading India, it's not geography's fault but the failure of Persia, which should and will get strengthened. I know Danish fought Swedes for who could in theory call himself 'the ruler of Finnmark', it's just the same with Ivan arguing with the Swedes over Kola, without neither army ever penetrating that area. BTW, besides the Swedes have royally beaten our ass 1560-1618, taking whatever they wanted and thinking of gobbling up Novgorod, they still did not impose their rule over Kola, because it was a frozen wood with a few wild inhabitants and zero economical importance. In game, however, Sweden WILL want to take Kola after a major war, while Russia WILL be sending troops into Norway. It's the very same nonsence as, say, colonizing the interior of Greenland. Humbug irritating the ai. I don't think these provinces have more importance then Sahara interior, because there, you had some trade routes and state-like Bedouin/Tuareg tribes. In Himalaya, you had some rather big towns and a high culture. The importance of Kola/Finmark is the same as the importance of the uncharted rain forests of Brazil!

Are you joking? The Soviets DID invade Norway during WW2, thats you know, part of the reason the Germans burnt every damn house north of Trondheim! ;)


As for the rest of your arguments, I have provided historical facts and clearly shown that there were interests in gaining access to the north sea for example. Your brilliant counter argument seems to be "Kola/Finmark is the same as the importance of the uncharted rain forests of Brazil". If that is the best you can come up with, sorry kid, you are out of your league.
 

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Hallsten said:
How will you do that without the PTI?



Whate are you trying to say here? I gont get it...



You do that and I'll stand by that you can... :rolleyes:

1) Like I've said a half dozen times, increase the movement times between and to Kola and Finnmark. That will kill off any 100k invasion army! ;)

2) I am saying that a "non-upgraded to city" Finnmark will kill off a lot more men than an upgraded Finnmark.

3) That's interesting. So you don't see the problems of totally different styles or "rules" for placing PTI for different regions of the new EU2 map. Interesting indeed! :D Does this apply to other aspects in your life as well? ;)
 

unmerged(9404)

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Nice

Cut those rivers a bit back and make clear where they end.

The left arm of the Don river ends somewhere halfway Tula and Ryazan. Will it give a river crossing penalty or not for armies crossing there. There are some other examples of this (Dvina three of the Wolga branches
On which side of the river is Astrakahn?
The end river flowing into Galizien should be cut, its confusing.

Rivers should be cut a bit shorter as it has a real impact on army movement and combat.


Doesn't the removal of the PTI seperating Russia proper from the Ob river give Russia the change to start colonisingh ahistorical early?
 

unmerged(12680)

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Josip said:
Although, I'm not ready to move Astrakhan around just yet... I think it should represent control of Volga delta, e.g. whom ever controlled Astrakhan, actually controlled north Caspian-Volga trade routes...
Just my two cents.

... river must never ever ever ever ever... etc. No way around this I'm afraid... You could make it into a tiny triangular province with rivers on both sides (like the Indus, Nile or Mekong delta provinces). Also, the Rybinsk reservoirs (the lake n. of Yaroslav) is still around...

Still, much better with every update! :)
 

unmerged(13006)

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Excuse me - I haven' a lot time - I'm far from Moscow, but west border of Moscow is quite weird in Josip map now.

Western neighbor of Moscow is Smolensk - and it is DIRECT neighbour.
South-West neighbor of Moscow is Kaluga - and it is Direct neighbor as well.
South neighbor of Moscow is Tula - and it is DIRECT neighbor as well too.

But - Smolensk has longest border with Moscow, Moscow-Kaluga border is quite shorter (around of 1/3 of Moscow-Smolensk border), Moscow-Tula border is shortest (a bit shorter then Moscow-Kaluga border).

Chech in any modern chart of Central Russia for guidance - provincial borders in this region is the same from XVII century appx.

Problem is - shape of Moscow province is wrong. This province has rombic (diamond-like) - form with longest dimension in North-South. Then it has rather lond border and 8 different provinces around have common border with Moscow province. (You've got only 7 of them now.)

Sincerely yours, Bash.

I'll return in Moscow - around 22-29 of March.