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Hallsten said:
Will the "Karelia"-province include the Kola peninsula or has it been scrapped? Moreover I'm more in favour for naming it "Far Karelia" or "East Karelia" since Karelia is more than just the land between present day Finland and the White Sea...
1. No difference. We like to have just one province here - just that.
2. If you would insist on your way I would insist to make in Stalin' way - this province would get name of "Karelo-Finnland" with rather broad implication - "whole Finnland belong to Russia".
If you will to insist to be flag-bearer for Finnish Nastionalistic movement - "Movement to Karelia", I would be backer of Stalin attitude - whole Finland is temporarily lost land of Russia. As soon as you will be ready to drop your claim, we would be ready to drop ours.
Yep, I know what means your trying to rename real "Karelia" of History to "Far Karelia". If you like to REVISE all old treaties about this thing - speak about it in open fashion. Speak it quite freely and in open manner - you like to control oil-terminals in Vyborg region in one way or in other.

I always thought Finns like quite sensible Nation - modern hysteria about "Movement to Karelia" start to influe my attitude in quite different side.
EDIT:
Well, if you like to do it in this way - you can suit yourself and we will suit ourselves - as well - in traditional for Russian history - "asymmetric manner". (If you are wondering - what I mean, please check in my former posts - I've already told you - all economic pointers are just screaming now about changing main economical (energy) flaw from West side into... ehm... different realms. Existing of "Movement to Karelia" makes any business deals in North-West region as more risky, then you will just receive "hedgehog attitude" in military aspects and quite funny economical result - (for Finnland, Baltic states and Poland in first place and for whole Europe in far perspective).
Please, understand - main business assets of Russia are state-held and will be state-held for any imaginable perspective - then this business will be diverted in regions with "lesser geopolitical risks". Mind you, - Russian state idea about "lesser political risks" means quite different thing then common European understanding of this thing.
Please, check in Bloomberg agency long-term analyses about this situation, if my words isn't enough for this prediction. They are - quite smart guys in any Business issue.

Sincerely yours, Bash

Edit:
P.S. I must leave Forum onto couple of weeks by my business needs - then excuse me if I won't answer any question in close future.
 
Last edited:

Hallsten

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Bash said:
1. No difference. We like to have just one province here - just that.
2. If you would insist on your way I would insist to make in Stalin' way - this province would get name of "Karelo-Finnland" with rather broad implication - "whole Finnland belong to Russia".
If you will to insist to be flag-bearer for Finnish Nastionalistic movenent - "Movement to Karelia", I would be backer of Stalin attitude - whole Finland is temporarily lost land of Russia. As soon as you will ready to drop your claim, I would be ready to drop mine.
Yep, I know what means your trying to rename real "Karelia" of History to "Far Karelia". If you like to REVISE all old treaties about this thing - speak about it in open fashion.
I always though Finns like quite sensible Nation - modern hysteria about "Movement to Karelia" start to influe my attitude in quite different side.
Well, if you like to do it in this way - you can suit yourself and we will suit yourself - as well.

Sincerely yours, Bash

P.S. I must leave Forum onto couple of weeks by my business needs - then excuse me if I won't answer any question in close future.


I'm not making this a political issue, I'm merely stating that the area around Viborg has always been referred to as "Swedish Karelia", "Southern Karelia", "Finnish Karelia" (pre 1940 Finland of course), "Viborg Karelia" and so on and so forth. This has nothing to do with the Finnish desire to get Viborg back of whatever. I'm merely stating a fact, saying that the area was called "Karelia", atleast on this side of the border...
 

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@Hallstein, on the question of the form of Kola: I thought we wanted to merge the bulk of Kola with Karelia, while the northernmost part would be PTI, cutting Russia from Denmark-Norway.

Do we really need Finnmark? I mean, ok, there was a fortress. So what? It was not important economically or in any other way, while the sea north of it allows ahistoric invasions of Russia. Discard it along with the sea, IMO. It would be prettier that way as we else would have PTI south of Finmark.
 
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nalivayko

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Bash said:
Sure thing we would need something in modern Donetzk region. I'm not sure about name, but Donetzk is sdefinitely better then "Juzovka" or anything similar.
"Donetzk" name after "Donetz" river??? Excuse me - I spend a couple of months in Donetzk while on Student practice of MSU Chemistry faculty in 1984 - I didn't meet any "Donetz" river in vicinity. There is River Kalmius, which run through Donezk - as it seems (but we can't swim in this river - it was quite dirty).
"Wild Fields" - maybe? Or "Salt Steppes" - if we start to speak in 1419 timeframe definitions. "Mius" or "Kalmius" will do as well - but no "Donetz" definitely. (Strictly speaking - "Donetz" is river branch of "Don" river - in other word - some other province to - East and South from province in question.
By the way I was in Mariupol as well, when it was still Azovsk (we made some vacation trip while on Practice - for swimming in Azov Sea) - quite nightmarish this - 5 giant tubes in absolute bold steppe region and three of them erupt giant "fox tails" (oxides of nitrogen) around. Just imagine - whole upper half of sky has quite unhealthy orange-violet shade of colour... Br-r-r...

http://sumy.net.ua/History/map/map13.jpg

This map is the answer to Donets and Slobozhanshchina questions. The map shows Donets river flowing through vanilla province of Donetsk. This would be the only reason to leave this particular province name (maybe change it to Donets). Mius and Kalmius are too small to be even called rivers in EU2 sense of that word. I like Wild Fields, same with Salted Steppes, but these names would look rather funny in 18th century. I'll have to really think about this one.

Btw, I think you confuse Mariupol (former Zhdanov) with some other city :) One thing we do have in abandance is the number of famous steel plants, but the city is also the main sea port of Azov Sea... it's not much and 500,000 is nothing compared to Moscow, but beats any city in Kansas :D

http://sumy.net.ua/History/map/map10.jpg

As far as Slobozhanshchina, this maps of 1569 and 1648 show the region (or major part of it) in Russian sphere of influence. The problem is that the borders are hard to define on these maps. In any case, I was under the impression that "Poles" are not going to bother with it. If I am wrong, I hope someone from the Polish thread will correct me.

Is anybody from Crimean Tartars here? We would like to hear your opinion, beacuse you will be main Russian opponents in this region in EU2 timeframe and I wouldn't want to be blamed for unfairness...
Well, as first "initial" approach two provinces will do. But if we start to see in the thing a bit closer - South Crimea was divided in two different regions - with direct Genoese government (in Sudak region) and with some vassal of Genoeses (in Crimean south tip) with rather weird name (can't remember him immediately - but he wasn't "plain" Genoesan - for sure. He was a vassal).
More then that North Crimea has initial division onto two dif-parts with centers in Bakhchi-sarai and Djankoj, but implementation of four-provinced or two-provinced Crimean peninsula - is question opened to discussion.
Then Crimean peninsula had oppen appendage to East direction with possibility of Taman province under Genoese control again. If this province can be combined with south Crimean land of Genoeses is open question again...

By the way - moderm Mariupol region would be presented as Azow region of Crimea - as it seems. If you've got some objections - speak them as soon as possible.

Sounds good. Might be tough to implement though.

As far as Mariupol belonging to Crimea - fair and historic, I would not have any objections :) However, splitting vanilla Crimea in two provinces and allowing the player to conquer the province north of Perikop without annexing Crimea would make me really happy. Do you have any suggestions for the name of this province. What did you think about Tauria or Taurida. Meotida could also be used, which probably would be more historically accurate.

You missed the fact - Dnepropetrovsk region of modern Ukraine is in our realms as well as Rostov region or Bogutjar of RF and so on, but we are just collecting ideas about these lands - then any your ideas as Ukrainian are WELCOME!
Sincerely yours, Bash

Dnepropetrovsk is a modern-day region, which had no analog in the past. I would imagine it could be split between Zaporozhe and Pereyaslav. Rostov region is def. in the Russian sphere of influence and so should be Bogutjar.

Still working on concrete map suggestions.

And thanks for your input, really appreciate it. Shame we have to discuss this in English, but might as well share the ideas with everyone right away.
 

Hallsten

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almoravid said:
@Hallstein, on the question of the form of Kola: I thought we wanted to merge the bulk of Kola with Karelia, while the northernmost part would be PTI, cutting Russia from Denmark-Norway.

Sounds just fine by me! :)

almoravid said:
Do we really need Finnmark? I mean, ok, there was a fortress. So what? It was not important economically or in any other way, while the sea north of it allows ahistoric invasions of Russia. Discard it along with the sea, IMO. It would be prettier that way as we else would have PTI south of Finmark.

On a personal note I don't think it's needed, but then again I'm not Norwegian and I don't know all that much about the history of that particular area of Norway. The area is, however, very sparsly populated even to this day with just over 1.6 inhabitants/km^2 so it can't be that significant in the EU2 timeframe even though it was the subject of some controversy with Russia and Swedem.
If Kola is being removed I see no reason to keep it, though. Maybe the southern tip can be salvaged, but that's a later design-matter. If the province is removed I'm sure that Hålogaland will be economically compensated accordingly...
 

Dimes

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Hehehe, call me a national romantic, but I would hate to see the reason for the single war Christian IV actually won go away ><

That was the war 1611-1613 if I remember right? It was fought over who had the right to tax the lapps/sames/kvenes, and to make sure the swedes didnt get any harbours on the north side of the Scandinavian peninsula.

To be honest if it is, as Bash says, that it is actually the leader Patrikeev enable Moscow to do the naughty Narvik/Finnmark move, well, hmmm how about just dumping him then, so the russians get the full attrition etc? ;)
 

Gwalcmai

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At least dumbing him down a little, I'd say. If he's that much of an "uber-weapon" it would seem he is slightly over-represented. :D

And, huh... I can't really remember what the map-stealing function does :eek:o, but my memory of it reveals land provinces a country owns, but not the sea-lanes to get there. How do the Russia exploiters uncover the sea zones to get to those stepping stones in America? And... If you want to use the exploit anyway, wouldn't stealing the norse maps and getting military access from Scotland for a stepping stone from the Baltic instead of taking a sea port in Scandinavia be good for avoiding the attrition as well?
 

Hallsten

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Dimes said:
To be honest if it is, as Bash says, that it is actually the leader Patrikeev enable Moscow to do the naughty Narvik/Finnmark move, well, hmmm how about just dumping him then, so the russians get the full attrition etc? ;)

LOL, you do that and you'll have created yourself a mortal enemy... ;)
 

almoravid

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Patrikeev is absolutely more important then Finnmark, IMO. Another thing is to say that Moscow should have no good leaders before Ivan III. But that all is another story.
 

Dimes

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almoravid said:
Patrikeev is absolutely more important then Finnmark, IMO. Another thing is to say that Moscow should have no good leaders before Ivan III. But that all is another story.

Errrm, why is he absolutely more important? Think you forgot to mention that ;p And Moscow not having good leaders for a while; do they really, really need it that bad? More than other countries? Or is it quite possible for Moscow to achieve its historical goals without Patrikeev. As it is right now, he, errrrm let's just say, allows Moscow to overextend quite a bit.
 

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OK, I've made some revisions, how about this one:
RUSSIA.gif
 

almoravid

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Hmm, looks pretty good already, but...

1. Togliatti aka Tol'jati is a 20th century industrial town named after an italian communist party leader. Remove it and add it to Samara or Bashkiria.

2. If you want to include Severnaya Dvina, I'd not divide Lukomorie in two provinces but dash the part west of dvina to a scandinavian province.

3. Name Penza "Mordva" (pretty please) :)

Else...pretty acceptable
 

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almoravid said:
Hmm, looks pretty good already, but...

1. Togliatti aka Tol'jati is a 20th century industrial town named after an italian communist party leader. Remove it and add it to Samara or Bashkiria.

2. If you want to include Severnaya Dvina, I'd not divide Lukomorie in two provinces but dash the part west of dvina to a scandinavian province.

3. Name Penza "Mordva" (pretty please) :)

Else...pretty acceptable

1.) Well, can you suggest a maybe different name for this province? It just doesn't feel right that there is no province between Samara and Bashkiria...
2.) Do you mean that I should add Lukomorje province to Karelia? Or what scandinavian province did you mean?
3.) Well, sure, as long as Bash agrees :D
 

unmerged(12680)

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Some random comments:
1) I really, really dislike seing rivers anywhere but on province boundaries. I find it confusing and annoying, and they did it in HoI1 but wisely removed it in HoI2, so I hope we won't wake the same mistake: I don't see what a river running halfway to the middle of a province really adds besides confusion, and we hardly need more of that...

1b) On a related note: Could you remove the "fatty" parts of the Dniepr and Volga? Those are huge hydro-plant reservoirs, I don't believe they had built that many hydro plants in 1419... And what IS the deal with that little mini-Volga in Yaik province?
EDIT: The Rybinsk-reservoir (north of Yaroslav) should go too, didn't exist until after WW2.

EDIT: 1c) Just noticed the river-odditiy that is Niznij Novgorod... Surely there must be some better way to handle it! :eek:

2) A "Mordva" province would be so cool, finally some recognition of the Ugrians! :D

3) Tojota is in the Samarra province anyway... Bulghar? Very anachronistic, but that's all I can come up with...


Besides all that whining, excellent work. :)
 
Last edited:

Hallsten

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Josip said:
OK, I've made some revisions, how about this one:
<nice map>

That's a great looking Russian map. I have a few comments on the border with Sweden though.
Extensive discussions here and here have rendered a concensus on adding a Swedish province centered around Viborg. Moreover I'm not entirely happy with the shape of your Kexholm and Estland should be a little skinnier, but it's still a really nice map! :)

edit: Oh yes, and Finland didn't get the "horn" around Petsamo until 1920... :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

Trin Tragula

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It's a nice map but greece looks horrid...
Ionia is really the name of the island group corfu belongs to, on the west side of Greece...
What's Ionia on this map would possibly be called the cyclades (that's where the island of Naxos, the current city for the province is really situated). The cyclades should be more to the south though...

Something is definatly ammis with the shape of peleponessos as well...
 

unmerged(12680)

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The new map for Greece and the Balkans has a separate thread...
 

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almoravid said:
@Hallstein, on the question of the form of Kola: I thought we wanted to merge the bulk of Kola with Karelia, while the northernmost part would be PTI, cutting Russia from Denmark-Norway.

Do we really need Finnmark? I mean, ok, there was a fortress. So what? It was not important economically or in any other way, while the sea north of it allows ahistoric invasions of Russia. Discard it along with the sea, IMO. It would be prettier that way as we else would have PTI south of Finmark.

There was actually a war fought between Denmark and Sweden, and part of the reason was to force Sweden to recognize the Danish-Norwegian claim in the north.

Like I said earlier, there were steps taken waaay before that by Norway to secure their position there as well.

Finally, all the provinces need to be treated with the same. If Finnmark and Kola is deemed too "primitive" to be included in the game, you gotta to that with the rest of the world as well. You can't play by different rules in different areas of the world.

Exacly why is it so important to cut off Russia from Norway? I've heard some come with rather absurd claims that this would somehow lead to an overpowered Russia. Really? Name one major that can't go all land and still have an awsome navy.

The clue here is giving the player a *choice*, not forcing him to play along a set of rules some 3-6 people in this thread sets. I am pretty confident that the "higher ups" and the map makers will be setting their foot down on this issue, once all the "map pieces" are being put together. A russia full of game/freedom limiting PTI, whilst the turks can walk all over Little Asia, send a 100k army accross Sinai, whilst at the same time conquering their way to India with half a million men! :rolleyes:

Simple solution. Just raise the movement time in provinces with difficult terrain to ward of any over-ambitious plans for example. This would serve both interest groups, the player that wants to go Naval with Russia will have an expensive ordeal losing LOTS of troops in the process, which means they will probably be better off going for a historic Russian expansion.

But again, removing the freedom of choice for the player is a big, big no no, and you should all be ashamed! :p
 

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Galleblære said:
There was actually a war fought between Denmark and Sweden, and part of the reason was to force Sweden to recognize the Danish-Norwegian claim in the north.

Like I said earlier, there were steps taken waaay before that by Norway to secure their position there as well.

Finally, all the provinces need to be treated with the same. If Finnmark and Kola is deemed too "primitive" to be included in the game, you gotta to that with the rest of the world as well. You can't play by different rules in different areas of the world.

Exacly why is it so important to cut off Russia from Norway? I've heard some come with rather absurd claims that this would somehow lead to an overpowered Russia. Really? Name one major that can't go all land and still have an awsome navy.

The clue here is giving the player a *choice*, not forcing him to play along a set of rules some 3-6 people in this thread sets. I am pretty confident that the "higher ups" and the map makers will be setting their foot down on this issue, once all the "map pieces" are being put together. A russia full of game/freedom limiting PTI, whilst the turks can walk all over Little Asia, send a 100k army accross Sinai and conquer their way to India with half a million men! :rolleyes:

Simple solution. Just raise the movement time in provinces with difficult terrain to ward of any over-ambitious plans for example. This would serve both interest groups, the player that wants to go Naval with Russia will have an expensive ordeal losing LOTS of troops in the process, which means they will probably be better off going for a historic Russian expansion.

But again, removing the freedom of choice for the player is a big, big no no, and you should all be ashamed! :p


My view on the PTI-issue is the following:
The area covered by the PTI was more of a natural divide than any big river and as such is provided a protection. The PTI is to prevent a massive Russian invasion into Österbotten and Finnmark and instead concentrating the defensive forces to Savolax and Viborg-Karelen, which is very historical IMHO...

But you knew that already... :rolleyes:
 

Galleblære

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Hallsten said:
My view on the PTI-issue is the following:
The area covered by the PTI was more of a natural divide than any big river and as such is provided a protection. The PTI is to prevent a massive Russian invasion into Österbotten and Finnmark and instead concentrating the defensive forces to Savolax and Viborg-Karelen, which is very historical IMHO...

But you knew that already... :rolleyes:

But don't you see, if we create artificial borders to simulate historic attack routes in Scandinavia/Russia, we need to do that everywhere else.

Like I said, for something like the hundreth time, you can't have different rules for different areas. Just think about it in multiplayer, why should players controlling nations in other parts of the world be allowed to use "unhistoric" attack routes, but not Russia/Sweden/Denmark? Why this insanely stuck up rigid stance just here?

I mean, a French player can easily incade the UK from Scotland or York for example, when that would have been suicide in real life. Should we then create "PTI" alongst the shorelines of England to block them off? Block off any other highly improbable attack route in europe?

Again, this can easily be handeled by handing out very expensive movement times in "unattackable routes".

Don't you see, I am not against the concept of making attack routes from difficult places less off an exploit, I am TOTALLY AGAINST using PTI to FORCE the player into doing it. Big difference. Historically, leaders didnt cross armies here because they knew it would be extremly hard to pull of. Was it impossible? No. Thus, PTI is not warranted.