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Ges

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Bash said:
What is your idea to make "Kexholm" region - protestant to 1819? You are expert in all Karelian issues - pls, explain - what is GAME-METHOD to do it satisfactory - without any artificial legs in form of special event?

Sincerely yours, Bash

I don't have yet any idea how Karelia should be modeled, but If we decide to Keep old Kexholm province - then good idea would be to use event to convert Kexholm to protestant - after all whole lot of people was changed in 17th century, old orthodox finns moved away to Russian Karelia and Tver and new protestant finns arrived and settled Kexholm province. This was discussed back in old days - but no one actually did anything.

something like this
Code:
triggers
sweden owns Kexholm 1550-1650

command
Kexholm changed to protestant.
 

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Herr Doctor said:
Catholic lands in Germany???.. Sweden never did it coz North German lands historically became Lutheran the way earlier than Swedish… Or what do you mean?

Pls, check in my post again. I've mean game results. A lot of German lands in Northern Germany used to be eaten by big Poland. Poland is used to make them Catholic lands at first possible excuse.
Sweden in GAME used to beat poles in GAME and - tyhen start to convert german lands converted by Poles to Catolizism - into Protestant back.
You are making your statement in manner - like you never see huge Poland in North Germany instead of multitude4 of German minors.
Excuse me for pointing you - German minors of Protestant Faith don't used to survive in common game of EU2 at all. ;)

Bash
 

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Bash said:
Pls, check in my post again. I've mean game results. A lot of German lands in Northern Germany used to be eaten by big Poland. Poland is used to make them Catholic lands at first possible excuse.
Sweden in GAME used to beat poles in GAME and - tyhen start to convert german lands converted by Poles to Catolizism - into Protestant back.
You are making your statement in manner - like you never see huge Poland in North Germany instead of multitude4 of German minors.
Excuse me for pointing you - German minors of Protestant Faith don't used to survive in common game of EU2 at all. ;)

Bash
Oh, sorry. :eek:o Just thought that you still speaking in historical context. ;)

Yeah, you a right that German states did not survive with the present game engineering, and almost annexed by Catholic France, Austria or Poland in XVI century. Well, it is one of the reasons why I supported the creation of the new map. :)
 

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Ges said:
This whole Karelia issue is getting out of hands. Bash knows great deal of russian history and things but he's losing his touch when going westward. Same way his "swedish opponents" are losing their touch when going eastward.

We surely need Karelia modeled but with how many provinces and named how - that must to be decided.

It's too bad to see that perfectly good russian thread has been taken over by talk about one northern border province. I would prefer to have completely own thread for Karelia since it's hard matter.

Kola is whole another issue. This poor area has been negleted in vanilla. Best exemple of this is that it had - and still propably has in AGCEEP - tax value of 4.

People are saying things left and right about Karelia which I have to say I disagree most. They just are against my knowledge of history of Karelia.

And BTW: Käkisalmi - the main city of Karelia in these times (with Viborg) was called Kexholm in sweden and Korela in russian (nowadays something like Priozjorsk) - after what the name of Karelia comes too

OK, I've started a new thread now to discuss the border. All are welcome, especially Bash... :D
 

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Bash said:
First things must be first. Your chart is fine - it can be initial draft for Russian map indeed. Just one small thing or another.

I'm not sure if we need to create special "Kamenny Poyas" province. Ural mountains start to elevate quite hard to south direction and was quite non-passable - in contrary to Mid-Ural region. Espacially ugly is proposition to make link through "Kamenny Poyas" between Sibir and Bashkiria.
I would vote for making PTI instead of this province.
More then that "Bashkiria" must be rather onto left bank on Kama river to East from "Kazan" - not to South. If you check in official chart of Russian Federation like - http://maps.yandex.ru - you will realize Kazan must be placed - strictly in mid-section of line Ufa (capital of Baskiria) - Nizhgorod. Strictly speaking it is almost direct line into East - Moscow-Nizhgorod-Kazan-Ufa with equal distances between all 4 cities, but in you presentation it is rather steep parabola with quite hyard dpwning into Moscow and Ufa ends.
I've mean vanilla Paradox chart with placement of Nizhgorod - strictly to East from Moscow and Kazan - strictly to East from Nizhgorod was correct thing. Non-correct thing in Vanilla chart in this region was placemant Bashkiria to South from Kazan, when it is situated in East direction.
Please, see it on official RF chart yourself.
I would strictly against any name like "Mordva" on the chart. "Penza" would be more appropriate, because "Penza province" was most important district of region, when "Mordva/Saransk" thing was implementation of more recent times. Ugh... Well, "Mordva" will do anyway - if you prefer this name and if we make any decision to implement this province - anyway.
I would vote for dividing of land "Mordva/Penza" region for simplification process - give it to Tambow, Kazan, Nizhgorod or you will get a huge headache when start to make event list for Russia - I warned you.
Next thing - I can't find most important feature for Russian - core-land region - where is Oka River?
Oka River must be most important barrier between Muscovy and Lithuania, Muscovy and Rjazan. Yep, "Tula" region is representing "Zaokovskije principalities" then it must be on south bank of Oka river as well as Lithuanian' Kaluga and independent Rjazan. Sure thing you can make some token river (like Osetr) between Kaluga and Tula for underlying problems to making direct march from Kaluga to Tula through rather impassable forests of region.
Next thing - Astrakhan region MUST be on East bank of Volga River - not in West bank - definitely, then your Yaik province must be halved.
Forget about "Sarai" province of this magnitude - West bank of Volga must receive name of "Tzaritzyn" - early or later, then corresponding/neighboring province to West of "Bogutjar" or something similar must exist as well.
Land of your "Astrakhan" is quite non-fertile then some "Kalmyk" region with quite shitty numbers would be appropriate as quite good "screening" thing to Crimean Khan appetites in East direction.
It's my first impression about this chart.

Dixi.

Sincerely yours, Bash

P.S.
Excuse me for asking - are you sure if Juri Zvenigorodsky outlived Vitautas or could hear about Vorskla battle outcome??
Are you sure if Lithuanians had in 1419 strenght enough for crushing Zvenigorod fortress - let's put aside more hard task about crushing wall of Kremlin??
Excuse me for pointing you but well-known by EU2 game Muscovy leader "Juri Patrikeev" was... commander-in-chief of Juri Zvenigorodsky forces - not vice-versa and came to Grand Duke service only after Jury untimely death. More then that Patrikeev was quite famous for this "neutral" stance in Civil war as well as all his veteran troops. He wasn't on side of "Galich insurgents", but he wasn't on side of Grand Duke as well!
Grim truth about Civil war is - both sides were "armed mobs" more then regular army, when regular army preferred to "wash hands" by strenghtening fortresses on Lithuanian border - it is big reason to name Patrikeev and his brethren as "Jurieviches" backer more then Grand Duke backer.
Excuse me for pointing - Zvenigorod was never sieged by Lithuanians due to quite "impregnable" astatus of this bordering fortress. Did you see Zvenigorod' walls for making statement - local inhabitants feared Lithuanian invasion?!
Quite contrary - this land was constant wasp' nest for Lithuanians, because Juri' backers (as well as his precedessors or descendants) constantly broke any treaties with Lithuanians by harrasing/robbing/pillaging Lithuanian lands - not vice versa. Lithuanians suffered from Zvenigorod assailants more then Zvenigorodians - it's historical truth, not something else!
According to historical annales - Prince Golytzins bear more lithuanians blood in their veins due to common Lithuanian policy - to marry bothersome neighbors for calming their appetites, because Golytzins (yep, direct descendants of Juri and his sons) kept their Zvenigorod stronghold and used to harass/stalk/thug/knuckle down any Lithuanians in vicinity due to their "blood feud with Lithuanians".
Main phase of Civil war came to end as soon as Basil II was knuckled down enough by "Galich/Golytzins" family to taking back his initial demand to "free Zvenigorod fortress from Galich troops and go out to Galich". Sure thing - absolute majority of rebels seek just that - keeping their impregnable stronghold and continue their quite Raubritter-life. Just imagine - you are making a lot of joyriding into enemy lands, has got a lot of bounty and - robbed Lithuanian nobles prefer to make wedding proposals instead of counter-raids. It is quite funny way of life for Medieval feudal, isn't it? Why it was? Little hint - come to Zvenigorod ans see its Fortress walls. They are a bit higher then Kremlin walls ;). Situation when Fortress walls of some Feudal are more sturdy and higher then Fortress walls of Grand Duke is good enough reason for any medieval insurgency - isn't it?
Pls, check in History - Muscovy never took over any lands to west from Zvenigorod from Lithuania in straight battle. All these lands came to Russian realms as property of Princes Golytsins received by them as marriage results.
Then we came to core of Civil war problem - as soon as "Galich/Golytz/Golytzin" family kept their stronghold instead of initial demand of Grand Duke to give it up to his direct posession, "Galich family" took back their claim on throne of Muscovy - and both sides were happy.
Then there were "insurgents" inside "Galich/Golytzin" family - like Vasil Squinty-Eyed and Dmitry Shemyaka which led rebellion against Grand Duke and their own family! Try to realize - Galich/Golytzin family kept their Zvenigorod stronghold as main part of bargain with grand Duke - then Basil Squinty-Eyed and Dmitry Shemyaka was "pushed out" to real Galich by their own Family as trouble-makers and violators of "mutual hearty agreement"!
Pls, understand historical fact - all Golytzins and Godunovs kept their hereditary lands around Zvenigorod - most sturdy and strong Muscovitan fortress of XV century - nobody of them went to Galich. Then any speculation about their fright of Lithuanian invasion is just speculations - these guys led their inofficial "small war" with Lithuanians - all times and were happy to make as many mischiefs in Muscovy/Lithuanian politic as possible. Sad Truth is - "constant small war with Lithuanians" was most profitable Business for these guys. In some sense they were direct analogues of Chechen warlords of modern times, which used to harass neighboring territories with strong backing of inpregnable Zvenigorod/Chechnia - if something goes wrong.
I'm far from comparing some grand-dad of Boris Godunov (of Galich family) with Shamil Basaev or Aslan Maskhadov, but some parallels are on surface - I'm afraid. Civil war came to end for these Chechen/"Galich" warlords as soon as Grand Duke took back his demand for Chechnia/Zvenigorod as part of RF/Muscovy. Some guys which was against this agreement was "pushed out" from "Chechnia"/Zvenigorod and second phase of Civil war started. (By the way - I'm sure - if Chechen warlords would be strong/smart enough for kicking out from Chechnia some "breakers of agreement" - we would get in Chechnia eventually the same result as in Muscovy of XV century. Russian history shows - whole Golytzins/Godunovs family was incorporated in Russian nobility in "seamless fashion" in 100-150 years time-period. More then that - one from descendants of these fiery Raubritter - Boris Godunov was Russian Czar ;). It's rather weird - historical interpolation to modern Chechnia affairs - if we wouldn't get "second phase of Chechnia war" - isn't it?

Well, I mean - it's quite different picture of Civil war then picture in your perception. Yep, it's rather difficult to see Lithuanians as victims of this constant "small war" - not predators like in your perception, but pls, compare this situation with modern Chechnia picture.
Are you sure if "Chechen warlords" are victims of all their neighbours, - not actual predators in this relationship, huh? ;)
Are you sure if "Golytzin warlords" were victims of all their neighbours, - not actual predators in this relationship, huh? ;)

Dixi.
Are you sure Mordova is a 19th century invention? I often see it in all kind of books to describe the tatar lands east of Nizhny and Ryazan and west of Volga. Penza wasn't of any importance in that time, I believe. Anyway, I don't like too many city names on map and would rather expand my Mordva to comprise the lands in my Tambov and/or Saratov.

What concerns Astrakhan, is that if looked at my map correctly, it is on the western hand of Volga delta. Also, it's conquest opened the door to Persia via Caucasian mts., not via Turkestan. So I'd like it to border Daghestan like in vanilla, but I'd hate Daghestan to border Volga. The problem is that the river always has to be (or should be) the border of a province. The lands are infertile? Well, the importance of Astrakhan never came from it's agriculture (until nowadays, when it's world's greatest water melon plantation, which, I think, grow in the delta, not on the east bank). But if you insist, we could call my Astrakhan 'Nogai' which were wandering around that area I think, and rename Yaik to Astrakhan.

On the Galich problem, I'm pretty sure that Vitautas died in the late 1420s, after which Yuri revived the conflict. Of course he knew of the battle at Vorskla result, as it happened well 20 years before, and was noticed by Muscovy government. Don't think Zvenigorod was in a good strategic position, as it could be encircled and taken by starvation quite easily by quantitatively much stronger combined forces of Vasily and Vitautas. From Galich, however, Yuri could retreat anywhere he wished without difficulty.

@Hallstein
Since Russia had no significant Baltic navy before Peter I it might be proper to remove the port in Ingermanland. This will force Russia to conquer 5 (historical) to be able to build a navy.
I know that St. Petersburg has a good port, but building such a port would not have been easy with the enemy so close by (in prov. 5).
Maybe russia can be compensated with a port in Archangelsk since it was such an important trading-port?

That port WAS built and used with the enemy so close by, and is very significant. It should not be possible to cut Russia from the sea when the capital is in Petersburg. So on your logic, we would put Petersburg into your province 5. Narva was an important port Russia had before Peter I, even if they did not build much fleet - there is no reason why they couldn't. When they were cut from Narva, they were cut from the sea. That is why we want to have Narva and Petersburg in one and the same province! Understand this, and leave the port where it is for good ;)
 
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Ges said:
If we decide to Keep old Kexholm province - then good idea would be to use event to convert Kexholm to protestant - after all whole lot of people was changed in 17th century, old orthodox finns moved away to Russian Karelia and Tver and new protestant finns arrived and settled Kexholm province.
I came to workplace and immediately was baffled by my collegue question - - "What Ges means by "old orthodox finns moved away to Russian Karelia and Tver". You swallowed this sentence in a way - like it would be rather normal.
Just imagine quite hilarious picture - a lot of ORTHODOX finns start to seek religious haven in Tver province. Do you know something which I don't know about Tver' region situation"?

Ehm, excuse me for dropping this issue in first place. I'm really don't thing all things - about finns especially. (I can translate any German language - like plain German, English, Dutch and so on or languages of their "North-German" brethren - like Danes or Swedes - ehm, I've got quite a lot of dictionaries for this purpose anyway, but all Ugric and Finnish sources are from my linguistic abilities - then I can be wrong in these subjects.) If finns by some historical quirk has special preference for emigration into Tver region I would like to hear about it - especially about big reasons for this movement. Please, Ges, enlighten me on this subject.

From other hand we have some completely different light on this problem from Tveritan point of view.
Do you see... Polish-Lithuanian Prince/leader Jagayla had mother - Ulyana Alexandrovna of Tver and whole Tver history is filled by strong references and hidden affiliation of common Tveritans to Polish/Lithuanian side.
It brought in quite hostile attitude to all tveritans issues from Horde/Muscovy side as well as from Novgorodian side.
Yep, both archenemies in titanic struggle in these lands/forests/moors like Muscovites and Novgorodians like arrival new Force like Lithuania in least possible way. But it was quite clear - from anyone point of view - Tver inhabitants has quite strong affinity to Lithuanian masters.
Then Muscovy and Novgorod made a deal of some sort - struggling sides promised to each other to "envelop" Tver lands for preventing any border meeting between Tver and Lithuanian realms. This deal survived test of time, but made quite important influence onto Tveritans way of perceptions.
Just imagine - unhappy people realize some grim truth - Muscovitan "lap-dogs of Horde" harassed them in the same manner like Novgorodians - "most staunch Horde opposers". It was quite no-win situation for poor Tveritans - like they were neither "Red" nor "White" in Russian/Soviet Civil war times, or neither "Blue" nor "Grey" in American Civil War terms, but both sides seek any way to make them suffer.
This unfortunate position led to quite interesting religios phenomena of Tver region.
1) Muscovitans were dedicated Orthodox, because they need to protect their realms in Faith sense from Muslim Horde (in most cases) and from Catholic Lithuania (in lesser extent).
2) Novgorodians were dedicated Orthodox as well, because they need to protect their realms in religious issues from Catholic Kalmar Union (in most cases) and from Muslim Horde (in lesser extent).
It means - both principal harassers of Tveritans were dedicated Orthodox, then Tveritans themselves start to be lesser Orthodoxes in quite fast pace.
Strictly speaking - strong influence of Lithuania combined with rather determinate opposition of Tveritan commoners to Orthodox preaching (preaching of both "terminal" enemies) almost made Tveritans as most susceptible Russians to Catholic convertation.
By the way you can see it in modern church distribution in Tver region. Tver region is famous for almost absolute ABSENCE of old important Orthodox cathedrals or sanctuaries. More then that lion share of existed in XV century cathedrals were razed by Orthodox leaders in subsequent epochs for "wavering from canonic Orthodox forms" with hidden/open hint about "closing with Schisma" (in other words Tveritan churches gave harsh anti-Catholic reflexes to all Muscovitan clergy on first sightseeing).
In other words - Tver as haven/sanctuary for religious Orthodox emigrants of Finn/Karel or any other origin from Catholic pursuers would be most weird place in whole spectre of Russian core-lands.
This statement is equal: "somebody trying to escape lions seeked sanctuary in Lion' Den" - in some sense.

Yep, I'm ready to say - I don't know all finnish quirks pretty well, then Finns could see some special attraction to Tver region, but this attraction was definitely not connected to their Orthodox Faith. Quite contrary- I'm afraid.

Pls, advise and clarify this thing - we are really having very big interest about this thing now. (Some other collegue start to speculate - maybe Tver had some special Finn/Ugric colony - like Kaluga which had quite strong Tartar Muslim population in spite of fact of total absence of Tartar or Muslim in surrounding territories.

Pls, clarify - "Finns in Tver" would be quite interesting information.

Sincerely yours, Bash
 

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Hallsten said:
If Finnmark should be removed or not I think we'll have to ask a learned Norwegian...

Well, althogh Finnmark never was a big playing field, the area was contested by Denmark-Norway, Sweden and Russia, and the Norweginas also built a fort in Vardø to show their presence. Some Norwegians have argued that Finnmark should start out with a fort in 1419...

So basically, making Finnmark PTI is IMO wrong.
 

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almoravid said:
Are you sure Mordova is a 19th century invention?

No I'm not. What is reason for making this supposition from my words?

almoravid said:
I often see it in all kind of books to describe the tatar lands east of Nizhny and Ryazan and west of Volga.

Sure thing - lands to East from Nizhny and Ryazan on Right bank of Volga used to be described as "tartar lands" in XV century sources. What nationality you like to apply to these lands in game-terms?
"Tartar" or "Ugric"?
If "tartar" then these lands aren't "Mordva", because "mordva" is Ugric tribe.
If "ugric" then you will get only "ugric" territory in quite weird place, surrounded by "russian" and "tartar" lands. What about "national continuum" or such in this presentation? This land must be plain - all Ugric tribes are dedicated forest-dwellers. You will apply name of dedicated Forest nation to empty plain?! Quite funny idea - I'm afraid. It's the same thing like naming "Such-and such Desert" some land in heart of France.
Yep, this land consist modern "Mordva republic" in modern RF, but I'm afraid you will create more problem with this quite misleading name for this huge territory which include a lot of different lands - not only mordva or other ugric dwelling, then - get right decisions. And you will get some really nasty problems in Late-game events - as result.
If you like to come into these "historical swamps" it would be your decision.

almoravid said:
Penza wasn't of any importance in that time, I believe. Anyway, I don't like too many city names on map and would rather expand my Mordva to comprise the lands in my Tambov and/or Saratov.
Ugh-ugh, "Volga Germans" and all their descendants would have quite strong gratitude (or maybe - more strong feeling ;) for you if you'll eliminate some entity with "Saratow" name on it from EU2.

almoravid said:
What concerns Astrakhan, is that if looked at my map correctly, it is on the western hand of Volga delta. Also, it's conquest opened the door to Persia via Caucasian mts., not via Turkestan. So I'd like it to border Daghestan like in vanilla, but I'd hate Daghestan to border Volga. The problem is that the river always has to be (or should be) the border of a province. The lands are infertile? Well, the importance of Astrakhan never came from it's agriculture (until nowadays, when it's world's greatest water melon plantation, which, I think, grow in the delta, not on the east bank). But if you insist, we could call my Astrakhan 'Nogai' which were wandering around that area I think, and rename Yaik to Nogai.
I'm not sure about it. Astrakhan/Itil wasn't neither on west bank of Volga nor onto its east bank. It was INSIDE Delta and was surrounded by quite inhospitable lands from East and West - no difference.

Sure thing Astrakhan acquiring open gate to Persia - via Caspian Sea, neither through desert Turkestan nor mountainous Caucasian region.

Excuse me for pointing - if one (eastern) half of some Sea hasn't any big city at all and other "western) side of the same sea in bursting from cities it would be "rather natural" to say - we opened gate to West - not to East.
But if we start to check in real history - Astrakhan didn't open any gates at all - it was huge trade terminal - not more no less.
Please check in - when Russia get Astrakhan and when Russia opened "west route" via Derbent and Lenkoragne (hint: Russo-Persian war in question ended in 1811). Quite long time for "open gate" isn't it? I've got an impression - Russia receive more goods from "open window" in St.Peterburg, then from "open gate" in Astrakhan.

almoravid said:
On the Galich problem, I'm pretty sure that Vitautas died in the late 1420s, after which Yuri revived the conflict. Of course he knew of the battle at Vorskla result, as it happened well 20 years before, and was noticed by Muscovy government. Don't think Zvenigorod was in a good strategic position, as it could be encircled and taken by starvation quite easily by quantitatively much stronger combined forces of Vasily and Vitautas. From Galich, however, Yuri could retreat anywhere he wished without difficulty.

I'm afraid to point you - Juri never retreated from Grand Duke forces in whole course of Civil War history.
He claimed throne in 1425, but immediately withdraw his request after Basil II promise to keep his stronghold of Zvenigorod.
As soon as Basil didn't keep his promise and tried to dislodge Juri from Zvenigorod Fortress - Juri returned to his claim and stalked Basil II from Moscow.
Basil II (not Juri fled to eastern part of Muscovy realms) and start to make complaints to Horde. Juri (backed by absolute majority of Moscow population) start to collect forces, but suddenly died in midst of this process.
Then sides meet to compromiss of some sort - Basil II became to be Great Prince of Muscovy, Juri family kept their hereditary Zvenigorod fortress with whole surrounding villages. Done.

A bit later, Basil II drinev by his strong-willed mother start to present himself as "Czar/Ruler of all Russians" (quite Lithuanian idea of previous time-period). Big problem in this presentation was Galich/Golytzin family existence which successfully opposed previous Grand Duke policy and led their own "small war" with Lithuanians. Basil II pretended to be Ruler over "all Russians" but russians in lithuanian realms objected to yield to his power, while Galich/Golytzin princes still were harassing Lithuanian lands. Then Basil II started quite "small pacifying operation" like Boris Eltzyn tried to do against Chechnia in modern history. His forces were destroyed while marching to Zvenigorod, as well as forces of lithuanian lordes which tried to assist Grand Duke attempts.
Yep, Zvenigorod is rather small thing in comparison with Muscovy and Lithuania of XV century as well as modern Chechnya is small in comparison with modern Russian Federation. Basil II had the same way of thinking like you in this project, and you named him by quite foul words, but his assuptions were the same like yours.
Alas, swamps, moors and rather rough terrain in Zvenogorod vicinity saved Galich/Golytzin insurgents like Chechen mountains saved Chechen rebels of modern times. Yep, Klin-Dmitrov Ridge a bit lower then Caucasian mountains, but Basil II hadn't Jet-plans, Helicopters and Panzers of modern Russian Army.
Are you sure if you are able to "starve out" Chechen insurgents? Especially if we would add some small spicing of situation - "Galich" troops were "core-troops" of former Muscovitan army, because majority of Muscovitan warriors didn't like to fight their own brethren in one ranks with traditional arch-enemies - Lithuanians.
In terms of WWII - army of Grand Duke in this campaign was quite close equivalent of Vlasov Russian Army in combination with German "friends" against some "Galich insurgents" (from Grand Duke point of view), but "patriots" (from Muscovitan commoners point of view). Good deal - indeed.
Grand Duke received a lot of bitter losses, before realization - just a bit more and whole Muscovitan principality became to be "Galich revolters".
Then next turn of negotiations started. Galich family kept their Zvenigorod surrounding lands, but promised to forget about any claims onto Great Prince titel for good. Great Prince promised from his side to expel all Lithuanians from Muscovitan lands for good and send his mother to monastery.
Tricky thing in this agreement was - Galich bunch actually won first phase of Civil war, then Basil Squinty-Eyed and Dmitry Shemiaka torn out all agreements as soon as all Lithuanian troops came out from Muscovy.
Then strange thing occured - the same Muscovitans which backed Galich princes cause in first phase of Civil War started to be staunch backers of Great Prince cause. Main disturbing factors of Great Prince side - Lithuanians and non-controllable mother of Basil II were out - then Muscovitans thought - Basil Squinty-Eyed and Dmitry Shemiaka are "trouble-makers" now. Then these two princes were expelled for good and started new phase of Civil War in far east regions of Muscovy - with main bases in Velikiy Ustjug and Vjatka (not in Galich - anyway). They were utterly crushed as result, but all other branches of the same "Galich" family - like Godunovs and Golytsins were considered as quite loyal to Grand Duke and KEPT THEIR ZVENIGOROD STRONGHOLD - anyway.
By the way - quite cold shoulder which Basil Squinty-Eyed and Dmitry Shemiaka received in Horde has quite different explanation then described by you.
Horde leaders saw them as "Russian Patriots" and "Nationalists" which fought against Lithuanian presence. But it means the same guys can fight against "Tartar presence" as well! Tartars were quite unhappy to have Grand Prince with the same thought-frame indeed. They preferred to have "Lithuanian friend" on throne of Muscovy, because it means Basil II was "open-minded" enough for dealing with "foreigners", then making "Grand Duke" from "dedicated Russian Nationalists". Do you see?

In other words - I remember some "gang war" from some Hollywood film. Some "rednecks" from some gang in California seek helping from some Chinese gang for fighting against some local Mexican group. These "rednecks" make constant flow of invectives to Mexicans naming them by all possible foul words for Spanish-speakers and we've got quite interesting result - Chinese guys, which had a lot of grudges against the same Mexicans, start to behave themselves quite un-easy and drive out "rednecks" from audience room quite fast. Later Chinese leader tells Mexican leader about danger from "Rednecks" and promised - if "things would be bad - we will help you".

Do you see all possible implications of this story to Russian Civil War of XV century processes?
It is quite stupid thing to seek helping from Tartar masters if your slogan is - "Grand Duke is Lithuanian Puppet, Let's free our Vaterland from Foreigners!" ;)

Sincerely yours, Bash

P.S. I'm quite happy - to have your total and non-conditional support in case of question of necessity for St.Petersburg port.

I'm not happy to have your absolute silence onto statement: "Most and biggest part of Narva province belongs to Sweden."
Yep, I've already get clarification on this matter from Hallsten, but your reaction on this matter would be for me - quite interesting. You can make it in PM form if you prefer it, but I'd have to have your ANY response.
 

Hallsten

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almoravid said:
That port WAS built and used with the enemy so close by, and is very significant. It should not be possible to cut Russia from the sea when the capital is in Petersburg. So on your logic, we would put Petersburg into your province 5. Narva was an important port Russia had before Peter I, even if they did not build much fleet - there is no reason why they couldn't. When they were cut from Narva, they were cut from the sea. That is why we want to have Narva and Petersburg in one and the same province! Understand this, and leave the port where it is for good ;)

If you put Narva in Ingermanland I'll have an easier time to accept the port in Ingermanland, even though I've accepted it already. The downside of this is that Narva will be on the wrong side of the river, so it might not be a good idea after all... Maybe make the capital of Ingermanland Ivangorod?
 

unmerged(13006)

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For all contributors in this part of thread (Almoravid especially):

Let's make some clarification in our policy for creating, keeping, sacking any provinces.

1. Mother Russia is suffering from magnitude of shitty provinces which are slowing down our tech development, raising stab-costs and WE. Price for bailiff/governor or else promotion is another very important issue. Then we like to have as little Russian provinces as possible.
Huge massacring of Northern Russia and Ob Valley provinces was quite good realization of this process. But...

We need to emulate history as our TOP priority, not running over Russian chart with sort of sponge - just eliminating all possible and impossible provinces.

Main Russian enemy in 1419-1819 timeframe are - Poland and OE. Epic struggle with Sweden in GNW is another story. It started in times when Russia already was huge and mean monster then we can allow to have a quite thin barrier on North.
In the same time - any Polish (Western) or Turkish/Crimean (Southern) affairs are quite different. We can't allow to have "thin" barriers in these directions - we need some strategical depth for common Russian tactic - trading space/provinces for time while our "core-lands" would churning out huge "rejuvenation shots" for our - ehm... "glorious army". Yep, almost all Russian wars started quite bad with really good outcome in the finish ;). Then "strategic depth" in most dangerous directions - are most important idea.

We can laugh on our Polish neighbors for their rather maniacal necessity to create a lot of quite shitty provinces, but we must realize - they must do it, if they like to survive possible onlaughts from ALL possible directions. Yep, it seems they are sacrificing their economical development for survivability reasons with... a good reason ;).

Well, we haven't any threats from north and East - then we can eliminate a lot of unwanted lands there. We have rather limited threat from Mid-Asian khanes and China then we will sack a lot of lands in this direction as well. But... Dangers from Poles and Ottomans/Crimeans so high then we would like to keep as much provinces in West and South direction as possible.
Then - I would happy to have something like string to East from Volga Valley like - Astrakhan-Orenburg-Tomsk-Omsk - and then Siberia started.
But in West direction I would like - Kalmyk, Nogay, Bogutjar, Cherkessia, Azow and a LOT of different shitty provinces around for effective "screening" our country from any Ottoman/Crimean incursions.
The same idea is applicable to West direction where Poland would be constant danger for our country. Yep, Poles have already made a lot of works by creating quite formidable shileld from shitty lands, but I'm sure we must contribute to this process from our side as well.

In other words - we are cutting a lot of different Russian provinces elsewhere, but in "touchy directions" it would be advisable to raise their count (slightly, of course) from vanilla distribution. Ehm, Napoleon must have a pleasure to stomp through a lot of shitty lands with negligible support - not through very rich lands at all ;). He's got a lot of Military and Administrative points with very high land-techs for joy-riding through big provinces with high support - his army was 600,000 at start and less then 90,000 at end - anyway. It means - his way was through really shitty provinces ;).

Sincerely yours, Bash
 

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Ok, how about this one?
russia_eu2_1.gif

russia_eu2_2.gif

russia_eu2_3.gif

russia_eu2_4.gif
 

unmerged(13006)

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Josip said:
Ok, how about this one?
russia_eu2_1.gif

It's quite big improvement - indeed. It seems Russia is used to receive all her good things from Western neighbors - including maps ;).

Yep, It is THE thing, which we would make as starting point as it seems.
Let's start to make a bit closer look.
First thing first - idea of Moscow province as direct neighbor of Polotzk province are rather radical from my point of view.
Polotzk Principality was future "core-land" for modern Byelorussia and you can see on any modern chart - Moscow hasn't any bordering points with Byelorussia at all. You must make next string in west side from Moscow: Moscow-Smolensk(by Lithuania held in 1419) and then Polotsk. In other way Napoleon would knokcing in Gates of Moscow in one simple jump :), but you must to remember before Borodino battle (Moscow battle of French historiography) there was Smolensk siege and battle. More then that Napoleon came to Moscow via "Smolensk road" - not via "Polotzk road" - I'm afraid ;).
Next thing in closest Moscow vicinity - if you start to see modern chart you can't see any major river onto North from Moscow, but OKA river - main branch of Volga came to Russian capital from South side cutting it from Rjazan and Tula provinces (quite convenient thing in times of Tartar-Mongolian and later Crimean onslaughts).
Proportions in northern Moscow borders between "Yaroslavl" and "Zalesje" isn't kept (but it is rather minor objection) - border to Jaroslavl must be quite short and to "Zalesje" - quite long.
Oka River is on wrong side of Nizhgorod province - it must cut it from Rjazan and other southern land - not from Zales'e region, and most important objection - Moscow MUST have common border with Nizhgorod or you will get a big problem in Trouble Times period, when Nizhgorod volunteers came to Moscow DIRECTLY for throwing out Polish usurpers/invaders. (Advice - make Rjazan province - definitely smaller and Moscow and Nizhgorod provinces many times BIGGER - Moscow and Nizhgorod was biggest cities and districts of Russia till St.Petersburg appearance.)
If you like to make different provinces of Arkhangelsk and Lukomorje - you must swap their placement.
I've missed Kaluga on your chart. Let's stop for a while.

Let's describe Moscow Region in rather simple chart:

........................................ __(Volga River)
NW(Tver)........N(Yaroslavl)...NE(Zalesje)...|
..........................................................|______(Volga River)___
W (Smolensk)..MOSCOW.......E (Nizhgorod).|
.................._______________(Oka River)_|
SW (Kaluga).|..S (Tula)........SE (Rjazan)

* I used dots for keeping lines in the same position

Something - like that.

Sincerely yours, Bash

P.S. Please, explain me - what is method of inserting simplest images in my posts?
 
Last edited:

unmerged(9404)

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Josip said:
Ok, how about this one?
<maps>

Cut down on the rivers.

Somehow everyone wants to include more and longer rivers on the new maps. Though they are probably there in real life, for gameplay they have an impact on armies and combat the map shouldn't be littered with it.

(I don't comment on the other aspects of the map as my knowledge of Russia is very low)
 

unmerged(13006)

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Ironfoundersson said:
Cut down on the rivers.

Somehow everyone wants to include more and longer rivers on the new maps. Though they are probably there in real life, for gameplay they have an impact on armies and combat the map shouldn't be littered with it.

(I don't comment on the other aspects of the map as my knowledge of Russia is very low)

Sure thing. In Josip map we can delete Ural(Yaik) River definitely as well as rather strange river-hand of Dniepr. Real dniepr River start to make rather sharp turn on West from modern Dnepropetrovsk in direction of Kiev (i.e. inside P-L landmass). Any River in vicinity of Tambow province must be deleted - in any case.

I can't recognize any River on Russian plain with notable exception of Volga with her both branches - western Oka and eastern Kama for implementation in mid-part of Russian chart. Then we need just lower part of Dnieper and Don River. It's enough - nothing more. (Kouban River implementation is rather overkill by my standards.)

Sincerely yours, Bash
 

Hallsten

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Bash said:
P.S. Please, explain me - what is method of inserting simplest images in my posts?

go to http://www.imageshack.us and upload your images there. That's what I've done, works like a charm!
 

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Hi Guys, just a heads up.

I'm working on Central Asia which is in progress.

I've found that the Caspian sea is waaaaay too far to the southwest (don't you guys think that Caucasia is a little anorexic?)... so I'm just saying that maybe we should have a little more discussion on the Caucasus region w/r/t the placement of the Caspian? I also have a suggestion from Aetius on how the Caucasus might be laid out.
 

nalivayko

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I've noticed both "Poles" and "Russians" are somewhat at loss when drawing out the border regions between Russia and PL. I could not care less about the lands of White Russia and border regions further north, but I would like to help to coordinate both groups' efforts when it comes to Ukraine. Sooner or later, when the # and shape of provinces are agreed on, two maps will have to be joined together.

Anyway, the questions and suggestions that I have:

1. It seems there was an agreement that "Poles" will take care of Western Ukraine and "Russians" will "draw" the map of Eastern Ukraine. What provinces have been sugested for Ukraine in this thread? Is decision reached or is it still in the process?

2. Donetsk province? I was born in Mariupol, Donetsk province/oblast'/region. As far as I know the city that gave the province its name was named Donetsk only in XX century. Or are we naming the province so because of the Donets river?

3. Chernigov and Poltava were in the Polish sphere of influence in the start of GC and long into the game period. I suggest their shape (and name: I would prefer Pereyaslav for Poltava or have two provinces: Pereyaslav and Poltava) is defined in the "Polish" thread.

4. Zaporozhian Sich (I think there is a general consensus that Kremenjug is not the right name) lied on two banks of the river Dnieper. Any suggestions? E.g. making it into two provinces and have it handled by "Poles" and "Russians"?

5. Crimea - who will handle the Crimean region? If "Russians" I would like to take part in discussion. I already suggested splitting vanilla Crimea into two regions. Any ideas?

6. Kharkiv region in RL or Slobozhanshchina in EU2 timeframe. Definetely Russian zone of influence in the game. What plans do you have to represent this rather important (at least for Ukrainians) region?
 

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nalivayko said:
I've noticed both "Poles" and "Russians" are somewhat at loss when drawing out the border regions between Russia and PL. I could not care less about the lands of White Russia and border regions further north, but I would like to help to coordinate both groups' efforts when it comes to Ukraine. Sooner or later, when the # and shape of provinces are agreed on, two maps will have to be joined together.

Anyway, the questions and suggestions that I have:

1. It seems there was an agreement that "Poles" will take care of Western Ukraine and "Russians" will "draw" the map of Eastern Ukraine. What provinces have been sugested for Ukraine in this thread? Is decision reached or is it still in the process?

Don't know about Polish part.
It seems - we came to conclusion in Russian part of Map about Russian North and Core-Russian Lands.

Next step would be "temporarily Horde held" lands and Eastern Ukraina and else would be last thing, because - I'm afraid - it promises to be biggest can of worms in this thread.

Did you see Scandinavs reaction on St.Peterburg port or Kola existence?

I still didn't met any Tartar or Mordvin guys in this thread, but I'm ready for any weird discussion in "Horde lands" section, then "East Ukraine" would be most dangerous "explosion pack" - it's for sure.

You appearance is really good thing, because if we will meet any agreements in "brainstorm" phase of discussion - risk of "sudden explosion" in "map drawing" phase would be lesser. In any case I would proponent of more-detailed Ukraine' province representation, because I (as Russian) would need more "strategical depth" for Russia in this direction.

nalivayko said:
2. Donetsk province? I was born in Mariupol, Donetsk province/oblast'/region. As far as I know the city that gave the province its name was named Donetsk only in XX century. Or are we naming the province so because of the Donets river?

Sure thing we would need something in modern Donetzk region. I'm not sure about name, but Donetzk is sdefinitely better then "Juzovka" or anything similar.
"Donetzk" name after "Donetz" river??? Excuse me - I spend a couple of months in Donetzk while on Student practice of MSU Chemistry faculty in 1984 - I didn't meet any "Donetz" river in vicinity. There is River Kalmius, which run through Donezk - as it seems (but we can't swim in this river - it was quite dirty).
My close friend from Chemistry Faculty times lived (now he is full-time Muscovite) in Krasny Luch of Donezk - Voroshilovgrad region, he would tell me if he would met Donetz river in his region.
I was on rather interesting trip in Artemovsk' salt mines of the same region - I didn't meet any "Donetz" in vicinity - pls, explain - what do you mean by this name?
"Wild Fields" - maybe? Or "Salt Steppes" - if we start to speak in 1419 timeframe definitions. "Mius" or "Kalmius" will do as well - but no "Donetz" definitely. (Strictly speaking - "Donetz" is river branch of "Don" river - in other word - some other province to - East and South from province in question.
By the way I was in Mariupol as well, when it was still Azovsk (we made some vacation trip while on Practice - for swimming in Azov Sea) - quite nightmarish this - 5 giant tubes in absolute bold steppe region and three of them erupt giant "fox tails" (oxides of nitrogen) around. Just imagine - whole upper half of sky has quite unhealthy orange-violet shade of colour... Br-r-r...

nalivayko said:
3. Chernigov and Poltava were in the Polish sphere of influence in the start of GC and long into the game period. I suggest their shape (and name: I would prefer Pereyaslav for Poltava or have two provinces: Pereyaslav and Poltava) is defined in the "Polish" thread.

Sure thing again - easternmost point of Polish-Lithuanian influence in Ukraine was - Chuguev. Then we will be ready to negotiate on any suggestions from that part of Forum - start speaking to them - first of all.

nalivayko said:
4. Zaporozhian Sich (I think there is a general consensus that Kremenjug is not the right name) lied on two banks of the river Dnieper. Any suggestions? E.g. making it into two provinces and have it handled by "Poles" and "Russians"?

Well, let's again - ask our Western neighbors about their suggestion primarily.
This name (and province) still is in their lap. If they came to decision - it's our "sphere of influence" then we will come in with our suggestions.
No it must be only one province by my perception, because most part of it lies on Left bank of Dnieper, but it was still their sphere of influence - anyway.

nalivayko said:
5. Crimea - who will handle the Crimean region? If "Russians" I would like to take part in discussion. I already suggested splitting vanilla Crimea into two regions. Any ideas?
It seems - we are responsible for this land. I wouldn't want to start discussion prematurely, but...
Is anybody from Crimean Tartars here? We would like to hear your opinion, beacuse you will be main Russian opponents in this region in EU2 timeframe and I wouldn't want to be blamed for unfairness...
Well, as first "initial" approach two provinces will do. But if we start to see in the thing a bit closer - South Crimea was divided in two different regions - with direct Genoese government (in Sudak region) and with some vassal of Genoeses (in Crimean south tip) with rather weird name (can't remember him immediately - but he wasn't "plain" Genoesan - for sure. He was a vassal).
More then that North Crimea has initial division onto two dif-parts with centers in Bakhchi-sarai and Djankoj, but implementation of four-provinced or two-provinced Crimean peninsula - is question opened to discussion.
Then Crimean peninsula had oppen appendage to East direction with possibility of Taman province under Genoese control again. If this province can be combined with south Crimean land of Genoeses is open question again.

nalivayko said:
6. Kharkiv region in RL or Slobozhanshchina in EU2 timeframe. Definetely Russian zone of influence in the game. What plans do you have to represent this rather important (at least for Ukrainians) region?
No, you are wrong - it's definitely not. Slobodszhina was ONLY region in P-L realms (in modern Ukraine territory) which prefer to be in Russian sphere of influence, but wasn't.
Russian authorities used to warn local inhabitants - "we can't support your insurgency while you didn't define - if you like to be Russians wholeheartedly". Strictly speaking Slobodschina drop into Russian realms under screening of Bogdan Khmelnitzky racket, Poles didn't argue, because knew - their influence in these lands were minimal, but "three provinces in question - Kiev, Poltava, Chernigov" became to be cornerstone of Polish-Russian arguments.
Yep, it would be good to represent this quite important region, but it is responsibility of our Western neighbors again.
I would repeat - their (P-L) easternmost point of advance was Chuguev, then whole Slobodshchina is their responsibility.

You missed the fact - Dnepropetrovsk region of modern Ukraine is in our realms as well as Rostov region or Bogutjar of RF and so on, but we are just collecting ideas about these lands - then any your ideas as Ukrainian are WELCOME!

By the way - moderm Mariupol region would be presented as Azow region of Crimea - as it seems. If you've got some objections - speak them as soon as possible.

Sincerely yours, Bash
 

almoravid

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Bash said:
For all contributors in this part of thread (Almoravid especially):

Let's make some clarification in our policy for creating, keeping, sacking any provinces.

1. Mother Russia is suffering from magnitude of shitty provinces which are slowing down our tech development, raising stab-costs and WE. Price for bailiff/governor or else promotion is another very important issue. Then we like to have as little Russian provinces as possible.
Huge massacring of Northern Russia and Ob Valley provinces was quite good realization of this process. But...

We need to emulate history as our TOP priority, not running over Russian chart with sort of sponge - just eliminating all possible and impossible provinces.

Main Russian enemy in 1419-1819 timeframe are - Poland and OE. Epic struggle with Sweden in GNW is another story. It started in times when Russia already was huge and mean monster then we can allow to have a quite thin barrier on North.
In the same time - any Polish (Western) or Turkish/Crimean (Southern) affairs are quite different. We can't allow to have "thin" barriers in these directions - we need some strategical depth for common Russian tactic - trading space/provinces for time while our "core-lands" would churning out huge "rejuvenation shots" for our - ehm... "glorious army". Yep, almost all Russian wars started quite bad with really good outcome in the finish ;). Then "strategic depth" in most dangerous directions - are most important idea.

We can laugh on our Polish neighbors for their rather maniacal necessity to create a lot of quite shitty provinces, but we must realize - they must do it, if they like to survive possible onlaughts from ALL possible directions. Yep, it seems they are sacrificing their economical development for survivability reasons with... a good reason ;).

Well, we haven't any threats from north and East - then we can eliminate a lot of unwanted lands there. We have rather limited threat from Mid-Asian khanes and China then we will sack a lot of lands in this direction as well. But... Dangers from Poles and Ottomans/Crimeans so high then we would like to keep as much provinces in West and South direction as possible.
Then - I would happy to have something like string to East from Volga Valley like - Astrakhan-Orenburg-Tomsk-Omsk - and then Siberia started.
But in West direction I would like - Kalmyk, Nogay, Bogutjar, Cherkessia, Azow and a LOT of different shitty provinces around for effective "screening" our country from any Ottoman/Crimean incursions.
The same idea is applicable to West direction where Poland would be constant danger for our country. Yep, Poles have already made a lot of works by creating quite formidable shileld from shitty lands, but I'm sure we must contribute to this process from our side as well.

In other words - we are cutting a lot of different Russian provinces elsewhere, but in "touchy directions" it would be advisable to raise their count (slightly, of course) from vanilla distribution. Ehm, Napoleon must have a pleasure to stomp through a lot of shitty lands with negligible support - not through very rich lands at all ;). He's got a lot of Military and Administrative points with very high land-techs for joy-riding through big provinces with high support - his army was 600,000 at start and less then 90,000 at end - anyway. It means - his way was through really shitty provinces ;).

Sincerely yours, Bash

Of course, there should be many poor provinces between Poland and Russia, but we certainly can't use things like "Togliatti" proposed on the latest map (which made me fall of my chair, laughing). Russia of Ivan III. should be able to stay pretty stable, while the gigantic monster of Ivan IV. should be crippled by instability. We can include Nogai and Kalmykia, there is no question. Arkhangelsk and Lukomorie however never deserve two provinces. I don't think we need to worry about Napoleon marching through it. ;)

So we decided on our northern provinces, while Sweden may add some on their side of the border:
Karelia
Kexholm
Ingermanland
Lukomorie
Obskaya Guba
Novgorod
Velikie Luki
Pskov
Tver
Yaroslavl
Zales'ie
Moscow
Tula
Ryazan
Nizhny Novgorod
Vologda
Viatka
Perm
(Large)
Sibir
Kazan
Mordva
(eventually with Penza as capital)

We do not want a Kamenny Poyas/Ural, Perm should be the link while the rest stays PTI.

Let us go south. Which towns/provinces can be in our center and south?
I can think of Tambov, Saratov, Samara, Tsaritsyn, Bashkiria and Astrakhan in the Volga valley, then we could have Kaluga, Briansk, Kursk, Belgorod and eventually Orel west of Volga. In our far south (which isn't really ours until 18th century), we can have Circassia, Nogai, Kalmykia, Kuban and Azov. Don't like Bogutjar, actually. I'd rather have Don.

These provinces wouldn't be too rich, and would be numerous enough to keep invaders away imo. Objections? Counterproposals?
 
Last edited:

Hallsten

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almoravid said:
So we decided on our northern provinces, while Sweden may add some on their side of the border:
Karelia
Kexholm
Ingermanland
Lukomorie
Obskaya Guba
Novgorod
Velikie Luki
Pskov
Tver
Yaroslavl
Zales'ie
Moscow
Tula
Ryazan
Nizhny Novgorod
Vologda
Viatka
Perm
(Large)
Sibir
Kazan
Mordva


These provinces wouldn't be too rich, and would be numerous enough to keep invaders away imo. Objections? Counterproposals?

Will the "Karelia"-province include the Kola peninsula or has it been scrapped? Moreover I'm more in favour for naming it "Far Karelia" or "East Karelia" since Karelia is more than just the land between present day Finland and the White Sea...