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almoravid

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Okay. The problem with Moscow bordering Novgorod is easily resolved by adding a Velikie Luki province to represent south Novgorodian lands (that 'hand' between Pskov and Tver). Novgorod owned Velikie Luki in 1419, so it would be it's border with Lithuania. That province would also contain Torzhok, which was given to Moscow together with it when they had Novgorod on the run, can't tell in which year precisely however. If Moscow province includes Rzhev, it borders this Luki province, and Tver wouldn't border Lithuania. I'd also like to move Novgorod province more into hinterland. Don't want Lithuania to siege it too often.

Yaroslavl province... won't we have to include that princedom then? But yes, it was the most important place in the region, so let's have it. IMO if we had Rostov we'd have too small provinces for no real reason. In a game about 10th-14th centuries, I'd definitely include both Rostov and Yaroslavl, but for our timeframe, we don't really need it.

I'd prefer if Tula-Serpukhov also included Kolomna. Don't really want to have Kolomna province in 18th century. If Kolomna is a part of Moscow province, it will get too long for me to like it aesthetically.

Ryazan would stretch south alongside that Tula-Kolomna province all the way to Yelets, and border the Steppe in the east.

Which province would include Murom? Zales'ye or Nizhniy Novgorod? I'd prefer Nizhniy Novgorod, so that Tatars can invade Muscovy only via Nizhniy or Ryazan.

I agree with having Perm undiscovered from start on, and it's definitely correct to have Muscovy start exploring the east in 15th century already.

Ingermanland could have Narva as capital at least until 1703. That is, unless the Baltic guys really want to include a Narva mini province for the Livonian Order. Ivangorod or Nyen could be the alternatives.

So summa summarum we'd have 7 provinces for Novgorod (Novgorod, Luki, Ingermanland, Kexholm, Karelia*, Lukomorie*, Obskaya Guba*), and 7 for Moscow (Moscow, Tula, Zales'e, Jaroslavl, Nizhny, Vologda, Viatka*), plus a province for each of the 3 minors. That means 17 provinces for starting Russia. Nice, if you ask me. NVG will have CB shields on Vologda and Viatka. Novgorod's provinces should be rather poor, on contrary to Moscow's.
*-colonies or TPs.

WiSK said:
There is also a size multiplier in province.csv which can be used to delay movement of troops.
Then there are no problems for including our over-large provinces. :)

@vilkouak
Don't think Perm should be poor early on. It's silver mines had greatest impact on Ivan IV. 's coffers already.
 

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Hey there guys!
I was reading a bit through your discussion, haven't read all yet, but I really like almoravid's first version of the map, so I've decided to do a little bit of work... Please post your suggestions about province changes.

EDIT: image in next post.
 
Last edited:

Arturro

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Josip. There is a big problem with central and west europe. Every country east from HRE hasn't enought provinces. For example - Poland-Lithuania, more than twice as big as France has less provinces, Russia, 1/3 of Europe, has even less provinces. When in France of Spain 2-3 new provinces should be added, in east Europe 5-15 provinces per country must be added.
Arkhangelsk or Kola could be represented as one, large province, but i couldn't imagine just one province between Moscow and Nowogrod...
 

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Arturro said:
Josip. There is a big problem with central and west europe. Every country east from HRE hasn't enought provinces. For example - Poland-Lithuania, more than twice as big as France has less provinces, Russia, 1/3 of Europe, has even less provinces. When in France of Spain 2-3 new provinces should be added, in east Europe 5-15 provinces per country must be added.
Arkhangelsk or Kola could be represented as one, large province, but i couldn't imagine just one province between Moscow and Nowogrod...
More provinces is not necessarily better. Just because an area is rich or big or powerful or significant, doesn't mean it should have more provinces. It means it should have high taxvalues or be large, that is all. More provinces is not necessarily a boost; it can also be a drawback.

I will keep saying this until it sinks in...
 

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To add to this idea: Ukraine, which is almost 30 times smaller than Russia, has only 3 times less people than Russia. How do you model this in EU2? Give it more provinces? No, you give more population to Ukrainian provinces, which should in turn increase tax values. Problem solved.

As far as Russia itself... more provinces in the west, less provinces (make them bigger and poor) in the Siberia. And please, remove the PTI completely between Sibir and Kazan. Maps show the area was well known.
 

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nalivayko said:
To add to this idea: Ukraine, which is almost 30 times smaller than Russia, has only 3 times less people than Russia. How do you model this in EU2? Give it more provinces? No, you give more population to Ukrainian provinces, which should in turn increase tax values. Problem solved.
Well put.
nalivayko said:
As far as Russia itself... more provinces in the west, less provinces (make them bigger and poor) in the Siberia. And please, remove the PTI completely between Sibir and Kazan. Maps show the area was well known.
I think a little PTI to represent some of the impassible (for large armies) sections of the Urals makes sense. Also to allow for a little fudging of the map, like Bash said. But obviously, the trans-ural link we already put in should be made visially apparent.
 

unmerged(13006)

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Josip said:
Hey there guys!
I was reading a bit through your discussion, haven't read all yet, but I really like almoravid's first version of the map, so I've decided to do a little bit of work... Please post your suggestions about province changes.
Ehm...

I'm afraid - it's not good. Zalesje must onto NE from Moscow not to N. Main principality of Zalesje is Vladimir and Suzdal was rather small suburb/fortress of VLADIMIR in the time-span, then term "Suzdalia" (for any part of Russian lands) for 1419 or later times is absolute anachronism.
"Zalesje" - in plain translation from Russian means - "lands behind the forest" and pretending any existence of forestless lands to North of Moscow would be pleased Napoleon/Hitler and any Polish invaders to no extent, but they were doomed for ugly forest stalking.
Then lands onto North from Moscow belong now to modern Jaroslavl province, but in 1419 most important city there was Rostov. Alas, Rostov importance diminished in the same XV century to full negligence, then I would advise to name this land as "Jaroslavl" immediately in 1419. (Strictly speaking - Rostov now is main railway crossing point for modern Jaroslavl province, - then you can realize extension of relative dwarfing of this quite old ans early important city/principality.
I'm afraid - I can't make any reasonable pointing for proposed North-East Russian province distribution without fit of... laughing as minimum.

Ehm, I'm not sure if proposed chart can be starting point for making new map of EU2 Russia. Bad. Really bad.

Dixi.

Sincerely yours (anyway) Bash (this chart can be remade and improved).
 

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What about the Russian baltic fleet? Historically there was no such thing until the Great Nordic War in the early 1700's as far as I know.
Ingermanland, which was Russias only coastline at the Baltic, didn't have any proper port until the later part of the 1600's. This is why I propose that the port be removed from Ingermanland so that Russia will have to conquer Southern Karelia from Sweden to be able to build their coveted fleet. This follows history pretty well IMHO...
 

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doktarr said:
More provinces is not necessarily better. Just because an area is rich or big or powerful or significant, doesn't mean it should have more provinces. It means it should have high taxvalues or be large, that is all. More provinces is not necessarily a boost; it can also be a drawback.

I will keep saying this until it sinks in...

That's true. Rich, big provinces means faster tech research, lower stability cost etc. But also means faster army movement, strange war results, fast dissaperance of smaller countries. Also I don't say central and east Europe must have as many provinces as west Europe, but vanilia map is a mistake.

Nalivayko - could you visit New map: Poland-Lithuania thread? We have rather big problem naming provinces. Almost 1/3 of P-L was modern Ukraine, and nobody from Ukraine are posting there.
 

unmerged(13006)

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almoravid said:
So summa summarum we'd have 7 provinces for Novgorod (Novgorod, Luki, Ingermanland, Kexholm, Karelia*, Lukomorie*, Obskaya Guba*), and 7 for Moscow (Moscow, Tula, Zales'e, Jaroslavl, Nizhny, Vologda, Viatka*), plus a province for each of the 3 minors. That means 17 provinces for starting Russia. Nice, if you ask me. NVG will have CB shields on Vologda and Viatka. Novgorod's provinces should be rather poor, on contrary to Moscow's.
*-colonies or TPs.

Then there are no problems for including our over-large provinces. :)

Agreed. Luki is IN as well as "big" Tula.
A) Novgorod is 7 provinces now (from North to South):
1) Karelia* - Olonetz;
2) Kexholm - Vyborg;
3) Ingermanland - Narva;
4) Novgorod - Novgorod;
5) Luki - Luki;
6) Lukomorje* - Kargopol;
7) Obskaya Guba* - Berezov.
Novgorod has CB on all of its posessions.
Novgorod has CB on Vologda and on Vjatka of Muscovy and on some of Scandinavian lands like - Nyland or Savolaks.
It has "eternal CB" on Pskov and on Tver (maybe) - more than that.
(Lithuania has CB on Luki (maybe - maybe not),
Sweden has CB on Kexholm and Ingermanland;
Order has CB on Ingermanland).
Nobody likes Novgorod in diplomatic relationship table.

B) Muscovy is 7 provinces as well:
1) Moscow - Moscow;
2) Tula - Tula;
3) Jaroslavl - Jaroslavl;
4) Vologda - Vologda;
5) Zales'e - Vladimir;
6) Nizhgorod - Nizhgorod;
7) Vjatka* - Vjatka.
Moscow has constant CB on all of its posessions and will get CB on Perm/Ural ASAP.
Moscow has constant CB on Tver and Rjazan.
Moscow hasn't any CB on any Novgorodian lands.
Moscow bound with Tver and Rjazan and Horde by mutual agreements on MA.
Moscow has "warned" Novgorod about Tver "neutrality".
No big countries has CB on any Muscovy posessions, but Rjazan has CB on Tula and Nizhgorod (actually on Kolomna and Murom, but - what is the heck for the difference?)
Muscovy has excellent relationship with Horde and has Military Alliance with Horde as well.
Muscovy has good relationships with Tver and lukewarm (better then initial indifference) with Rjazan and Lithuania.
Muscovy hates Novgorod.

Three minors:
C) Pskov;
Pskov has CB on itself.
Pskov has CB on Ingermanland province of Novgorod.
Pskov is bound by mutual MA agreements with Order and Lithuania.
Lithuania warned Novgorod about Pskov "neutrality".
Novgorod has CB on Pskov!
Pskov has excellent initial relationships with Order and Lithuania but they would deteriorate pretty fast.
Pskov hates Novgorod.

D) Tver;
Tver has CB on itself.
Tver has CB on Luki province of Novgorod.
Tver is bound by mutual MA agreement with Muscovy.
Tver has excellent relations with Lithuania, good with Muscovy and definite hath against Novgorod.

E) Rjazan.
Rjazan has CB on itself.
Rjazan has CB on Tula and Nizhgorod provinces of Muscovy.
Rjazan has CB on some Horde lands.
Rjazan has CB on some Lithuanian lands. (Yep, it was most bothersome Russian principality of this time-span.)
Rjazan is bound by mutual MA agreement with Muscovy, Horde and Lithuania.
Rjazan has lukewarm relations with Muscovy, Horde and Lithuania.

Dixi.

P.S. Dear Almoravid - what is the graphic editor used by MKJ? I would like to make chart like his variant in France tread. Oh, if you like to draw it yourself - you are this tread starter, then you've got "prima noctiae" right - anyway ;).
I would happy to see/edit your variant as well (and maybe more then mine :).
As soon as initial chart would be done - let's go to Horde lands and Lithuanian lands would be last - we'd got most agrumentative audience in this moment I'm afraid. OK?

P.P.S.
Dear Vilkouak!
Situation with "Greater Barmia" region is quite interesting and funny. It was fabulously rich province from times of Simeon the Bold (son of Ivan I Kalita - founder of Muscovy dynasty). But it was rather strange richness...

Reason is in geological structures of central Russia region. In some really ancient times (Devonian epoch - to be exact) Russian plain was bottom of giant shallow sea and there was a lot of evaporation processes in this sea.
Sea has got more depth to NE region, then as soon as seawater went away - SW regions dried faster then NE regions. It brings quite interesting phenomena - SW Devonian (Famenian and Frasnian - to be exact) sea sediments hold more heavy metals then NE deposits. Reason - relatively hard-soluble metal ions dropped to sediments earlier, then relatively more soluble mid-metal ions dropped later - and easy-soluble light-metals dropped last. Ehm... my explanation is quite ugly vulgarization of this process, but in scetchy thing it was the story.
Later - in Quarternary period great glacier civered north part of Russian plain - then all south lands were covered by huge humus layer of "black-soils" and Muscovy region is southernmost region of full-scale glacier coverage.
It means - sea-originated salt deposits of Devonian sea origin is buried under "black-soils" for eternity, but in Muscovy region it came to open.
Then first silver mines of some sort - where silver was extracted from ancient sediments by rather weird chemical process was known in Muscovy region - before Russian appearance in these lands. It was one of big reason for Muslim inhabitants to hold Moscow-river Valley - really hard and relative late Russian acquiring of this region.
Muscovy lands traditionally were full by silver-confined salts in Devonian sediments. It was very important reason for Mongols to keep Moscow under direct Horde rule etc...
But salts aren't ores - their quantities diminished very fast, then Muscovy stop to be main "Silver basket" very soon, but Russians realized main idea - as well - salts deposites - were more to NE direction, but silver salts percentage dropped with distance. Reason was - it wasn't Devonian sediments anymore - it was Carbon sediments now and a bit to East again it became to be - Permian sediments.
No problem - Muscovy needs more Silver, then russian workers started epic marching on North-East for more ancient salts for more Silver. They found open excavations of these ancient salts in Rivershore breaks and excavated salts and took Silver and drop anything else. Very soon - in this marching silver percentage dropped very hard, but in the same salts - workers started to excavate copper now. No problem - silver excavation was primary thing and copper was extracted as nice bonus - after silver. In end of XIV century - some Russian workers find first salt "hole" which yield new type of sea-sediments - salts of iron.
As soon as first iron extracted by the same - vapor/rushing process was converted to first russian Iron weapon - Great Prince of Muscovy Simeon the Bold took quite different stance in talks with Tartars. He became "BOLD" - do you see?
If previously - only source for Iron Weapons for Muscovy was Horde itself, then Muscovy start to make her own weapons now. Big reason for Prince to be "BOLD" with anyone, isn't it?
But problem remains - salt deposites was "quite shallow" then Russian workers needed to walk into North-East Forests - deeper and deeper. Muscovy constantly grew in NE direction, because she needed Silver, Copper and most-important Iron - really hard.
Then Darkest day came - when the same salt deposites didn't consist Silver or Copper anymore. It held just light-metal ions from easy-soluble salts - like natrium and potassium. Yep, Iron, Copper and Silver still were there - but their amounts were negligible in HUGE amounts of common easy-salts. Run into "Greater Barmia" came to the sudden halt - in place with "Solikamsk" name ("Stone-Salt" is most appropriate translation). It was XVII century - century of constant rebellions and Mutinees in Russia - state coffers stopped to be filled by "free Silver and Copper" - it was another reason for "Times of Troubles" start.
But the same workers excavated common salt anyway. Same guys continued to walk into the same NE direction - they were sure - they can find Silver and Copper in next salt reservoir, because - it was rule of all previous times.
Then - in one strange moment they found something. It wasn't Silver - there isn't Silver in Ural mountains at all. It was Gold. Plain Gold.
Sediment-full, salt-full "Permian" lands came to end - gold presence means - Ural mountainous/metamorphic province started. But it is our modern perception of these things - in XVII century terms it still was "Permian Province". But very soon - gold hunting in these mountains yield rich iron deposites in start of XVIII century. "Ural indeustrial giant" was born and whole Russian history made dramatic turn.
"Russian bear" received his "Iron Claws" at last - and start to crush european/turkish/persian/turkestan pots from this moment.
Yep, we need to give free manufactory to Perm/Ural region in Peter the Great times and huge boost in military development in Ekaterina the Great times (like adding 3-5 extra military levels by event - in Ekaterine times - under condition - if Russia own her Perm/Ural "Armory"), but Perm/Ural as whole thing must have huge values from moment of its discovery.

Dixi.
 

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Bash said:
Ehm...

I'm afraid - it's not good. Zalesje must onto NE from Moscow not to N. Main principality of Zalesje is Vladimir and Suzdal was rather small suburb/fortress of VLADIMIR in the time-span, then term "Suzdalia" (for any part of Russian lands) for 1419 or later times is absolute anachronism.
"Zalesje" - in plain translation from Russian means - "lands behind the forest" and pretending any existence of forestless lands to North of Moscow would be pleased Napoleon/Hitler and any Polish invaders to no extent, but they were doomed for ugly forest stalking.
Then lands onto North from Moscow belong now to modern Jaroslavl province, but in 1419 most important city there was Rostov. Alas, Rostov importance diminished in the same XV century to full negligence, then I would advise to name this land as "Jaroslavl" immediately in 1419. (Strictly speaking - Rostov now is main railway crossing point for modern Jaroslavl province, - then you can realize extension of relative dwarfing of this quite old ans early important city/principality.
I'm afraid - I can't make any reasonable pointing for proposed North-East Russian province distribution without fit of... laughing as minimum.

Ehm, I'm not sure if proposed chart can be starting point for making new map of EU2 Russia. Bad. Really bad.

Dixi.

Sincerely yours (anyway) Bash (this chart can be remade and improved).


Thanks. Very comprehensive suggestions. Can you explain a bit more in detail what is wrong with North-Russian provinces? Or even better, if you can, try drawing your suggestions on my map (chart)...

P.S. Dear Almoravid - what is the graphic editor used by MKJ? I would like to make chart like his variant in France tread. Oh, if you like to draw it yourself - you are this tread starter, then you've got "prima noctiae" right - anyway .
I would happy to see/edit your variant as well (and maybe more then mine .
As soon as initial chart would be done - let's go to Horde lands and Lithuanian lands would be last - we'd got most agrumentative audience in this moment I'm afraid. OK?

MKJ is using Photoshop, as well as I am...
 

unmerged(13006)

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Josip said:
Thanks. Very comprehensive suggestions. Can you explain a bit more in detail what is wrong with North-Russian provinces? Or even better, if you can, try drawing your suggestions on my map (chart)...



MKJ is using Photoshop, as well as I am...

No problem. Let's check it. From North to South as usual from West to East.
1) First of all - Olonetz is historical capital of Karelia. It means Olonetz must be Karelia in some form. but Karelia's east border is Onega's Lake - not southern tip of White Sea where was sutuated center of Lukomorje - Kargopol. And mixing discticts of "Olonetz" (or den of Ugric based tribes opposers to Russian colonization) in any form and "Kargopol" (historical base of action for Russian-originated settlers) is rather base sin in Russian historiography. ;)
If you like to see on this problem from USA "Western" point of view - You mustn't place cowboy's ranches on traditionally held Sioux lands and name main colonization center like - Wounded Knee ;). :) Gotcha?

2) Arkhangelsk - Every time in EU2 playing I've got different shivers while meeting this name. Arkhangelsk IS most important sea-port on White SEA, but we've got some rather universal opinion - Russia mustn't have any ports on White Sea for game-playing reasons. Fine.
Reason for Arkhangelsk inclusion is its port function only, because in the same land it got two main rivals - Kargopol and Kholmogory. But moderrn region is Arkhangelsk district - anyway then we are in historic/game jam now.
Then let's drop Arkhangelsk name and return to rather ancient name of this region - "Lukomorje". Main city of this region was Kargopol. Fine.
Oh, pls, move "Lukomorje" border into West direction - to Onega Lake shores.

3)What is heck some unnamed land to south from Olonetz? It is tjhe place where real Olonetz situated and IS Karelia - then why naming som region as olonetz while making real Olonetz placement as some unnamed thing???

4) Ingermanland, Pskov and Novgorod - quite weird borders. but it can be improved - not real problem.

5) Vologda. You must realize - we are using Vologda name in full understanding - Vologda in 1419 was negligible stockade in "Beloozero" principality of Muscovy realms. Picture became to be reverted - pretty fast - Then Vologda now is having Beloosero as his dwarfed satellite, but you need to cling to "Beloozero" borders for making correct "Vologda" presentation.
I'm sure - this thing borders can be improved, but it is quite small objection - anyway.

Oh, I'm ready to reapeat - your chart is good enough in North-West direction enough for being some... scetchy thing for discussion starting, but we came to realms where thing became to be ugly. Really ugly now.

6) Galich. Bwa-ha-ha! I didn't drop from chair looking on this thing only because I've used to ask students one pretty "smart question" about Civil war of mid-XV century. Question is:
- "What was military base of Galich' Princes insurgency?"
Most laughable thing is -absolute majority of not-so-bright students used to answer - "Galich". Some of them used to add - "Of course". Bwa-ha-ha! :) LOL.
Reason for my or my college hilarity is real status of Galich in 1425 - for example. It was quite small half-frontier fortress in quite wild forest region, without any usable manpower base in whole region. Never Princes of Galich started their military ventures from Galich - at all! :)
Military base of their power lies in west regions - not in East! Juri Zvenigorodsky and his sons start to rebel due to fact - Basil II (or to be exact his mother Sophia deprived them from their hereditary lands - around Zvenigorod in very densely populated region to 60 km to WEST from Muscovy. This region was - bordering region with Lithuania and its population was famous for their ever-lasting hath to Lithuanians. Then keeping Juri or his sons in Zvenigorod would be sure path to war with Sophia father - Great Prince of Lithuania - Vitautas. Bad thing was - Zvenigorod inhabitants were backed by absolute majority of WESTERN ans SOUTHERN lands of Muscovy, when EASTERN and NORTHERN Muscovy lands backed Basil II.
Most important result of Civil war was - compromiss between warring parties. Galich' side leaders received coveted by them western Muscovy realms - like Rzhev and Zvenigorod. Far Descendant of Juri Zvenigorodsky - Boris Godunov start his marching on Moscow for being proclaimed as Russian Czar from Zvenigorod again - not from God-forgotten Galich.
Princes Golytzyns of Empire times (surname of "Golytzyn" is derived from their "hereditary land of Galich") - another branch of descendants of Juri Zveniogorodsky - Godunov' more-noble cousins - built a lot of Palaces in Zvenigorod surrounding - and no-one in their "hereditary lands".
"Summer House" of Golytzyns in village Bolshie Vjazemy - became to be Napoleon HQ in 1812 campaign and according to his remark "is more big then absolute majority of European castles and one of the most fine thing to West from Rhine" ;0). (By the way - if you will get into Russia - don't miss this Palace - absolute majority of visitors didn't used to check it, but it's a pity :(. )
Well, morale of my objection is the same - these fabulously rich nobles didn't improve their "hereditary lands"< because they never name it as "hereditary" - their political opponents used to push them - there, but failed ;).
Then if you have an idea to include "Galich" in EU2 for modelling Russian Civil war - it is quite wrong idea. "Princes of Galich" had huge dominance in Moscow/Serpoukhov region of proposed by Almoravid 7-provinced Muscovy and in Vjatka region in end of Struggle, but proposed by you - Galich was used to be on Basil II side - instead of your wrong perception.
Yep, Russia was weird country - where "Galich' Princes" was backed by majority of Moscow population and tried to dislodge Great Prince of Muscovy which was backed by all eastern inhabitants of Muscovy - like Galich principality inhabitants - with notable exception of Muscovites themselves.
If you like this land stripe name it "Kostroma" or something else.
"Kostroma" region was quite more important then fabulous "Galich" and we don't insert it in EU2 due to overcrowding of Russian North by provinces now.

7) I can't make any comment onto proposed "Vjatka"/"Perm"/"Kamenny poyas" or "Mordva" regions because it is pointless. I can't help it.
Well, let's put it quite simple - Moscow Region - never had any eastern neighbor at all. Reason is - Moscow has un-passable Mecshera moors in strict eastern direction. Main city in these moors - Murom switched sides in history, but this switching was quite irrelevant. Then we must choose between two possible contestants - Nizhgorod and Rjazan. Both approaches are viable abut most important question is - what is land to East from Meschera region?
It is Nizhgorod. (Rjazan had quite thin tongue to north in these moors then you Rjazan presentation is absolutely wrong to say the least - strictly speaking - Rjazan must lie on south bank of Oka River - not on its north bank like in your presentation.) Then our mutual with Almoravid agreement - Nizhgorod is eastern neighbor of Muscovy - for simplicity reasons. Rjazan troops must cross Oka river to enter Muscovy realms - Nizhgorod troops - mustn't. Rjazan is protected by Oka River from any form of Muscovy/Nizhgorod hostility - it's good thing. Do you see?
Main bulk of Nizhgorod lands must be lenghtened in NE direction - along to historical march of Muscovites for Silver and Iron into "Barmia".
Eastern heighbor of Nizhgorod - MUST be Kazan. Idea of weird "Mordva" province invention is taken from "thin air" and can't be discussed in friendly terms at all.
Eastern neighbor of Kazan must be Bashkiria - nothing else, but "Baskiria" implementation in EU2 is quite ugly thing. Then Kazan met some un-discovered land to East - "Perm/Ural". Do you see?

I can't comment you placement of along-Volga provinces at all - we didn't came to this topic yet, but my most kind words are - pretty weird ;).

Dixi.
 

unmerged(13006)

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Complete OT: what do you know about Devonian predators?

Excuse me for bothering, but my quite long post about "Barmian goods" which depend from geological structure of Russian plate was reason for my wife request (she used to read my posts - anyway).
If Paradox community is interested in geological/paleontological issues - maybe somebody here know any written/published/e-source for some rather weird shady subjects:

1) Pls. point any sources about mouth/jaw/feeding apparatus of Devonian fishes - we would appreciate any ideas about some thing which had mouth/jaws like modern can-opener, - not like common jaws.
2) Fishes are primary suspects in our case - we've got a lot of fish' scale fragments in our sediments and no signs of cancer/scorpions and such there, but any way - can you make any sensible suggestion about any other predator who could crush Devonian shells in can-opener fashion?

Thank you in advance and excuse me for OT here.
Sincerely yours, Bash

P.S. Quite weird OT of last moment. One chinese student will defend her diploma in this spring here then her Chinese curators asked to make some reference onto geological structure of Sinnine Plate from ... oil-resource view.

Ehm, my wife was quite stupefied by this question - she is quite expert on Devonian fauna, but there isn't any chinese based oil-wells in Devonian sediments! All her knowledge on chinese issues is restricted to Hunang province, where is Devonian and close-related sediments, but Daqing region (only known for me oil-region of China) hasn't them at all! Or has it? Oil deposits are used to "like" Devonian sediments or some close bound things. Presence of Jangtaj coal-mines around of Carboniferous origin can bwe pointer to Devonian origin of Daqing oil, or not? Pls, point any references on this subject please.

P.P.S. Oh, almost forget about it - sources language can be any major European language (English, French, German, Spanish, Italiano, Dutch, Swedish - no difference) or any East European language (Polish, Chech, Slovak, Serbian) with notable exception of all Ugric languages (alas - no Finns, Magyars or Estonians in our vicinity). Hebrew sources are welcome - as well, but any Arabic writings or East-Asian hieroglyphes - isn't good I'm afraid. We haven't much time for long/hard translations.
 

Josip

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How about this one?

wip_russia.gif
 

Kaigon

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Josip said:
How about this one?
If people (someone) disliked that it was only one province between Moscow and Novgorod, having them border won't be better than vanilla. Just a thought.
 

Hallsten

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Hallsten said:
A big part, almost half, of the province "Narva" belongs to Sweden. "Karelia" should be "Eastern Karelia" or "Far Karelia" since...

Eastern Karelia would be better.
 

unmerged(13006)

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Hallsten said:
A big part, almost half, of the province "Narva" belongs to Sweden. "Karelia" should be "Eastern Karelia" or "Far Karelia" since...
Check the Scandinavia-thread. :)
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185837&goto=lastpost

1) Excuse me for asking - what part of Karelia belong to Sweden in 1419?
2) What to you mean by "Narva" province? Pls, point you finger into any trace of "Narva" province in my of Almoravid statements. If you mean city of Narva - pls, clarify - if Fortress of Narva belong to Sweden in 1419.
3) Are you sure if "Karelia" name is full-time property of Scandinavian thread? Are you sure if any trace of "Karelia" issues existed in world political lexicon before start of XX century?!
4) What are reasons to name Finnish-part of Karelian lands as "Karelia" or "Near Karelia" and what name of these lands in Scandinavian resources? Are you sure if you like to abandon names like Nyland or Savolaks? If you mean - "Karelia" is different from these names - pls, point your finger to any other lands which belong to Sweden in 1419. Oh, sorry, I'm afraid I made mistake - pls, point your finger to any other lands which belong to Danish Crown in 1419 - Sweden didn't exist yet in 1419.

You made quite fine statement - "A big part, almost half, of the province "Narva" belongs to Sweden".
A) We hadn't any trace of "Narva" province yet.
B) We hadn't any trace of Sweden - independent from Danish Crown - in 1419 yet.
Please, explain your words here, or I will go to your Scandinavian thread - and start to make rather unpleasant questions there.

Dixi.

Bash.